Combat system

[AdamTaylor]

I think realtime with pause is a generally good system. It let's the action play out, while giving us the control to play well.
It would just need a good targeting and cover system, so that our character(s) attack who they should, and move where they should, instead of being sitting ducks.

 

[PillarBiter]

I just can't figure how they are going to give us the RP-joy of PnP with the deadliness and excitement of FNFF. Best I got is bullet-time and sequential attacks, but you know, VATS was always kinda meh. And I liked VATS.

THe otherwise terrible Hitman Absolution had a freeze-time and shoot people option that was cool.

I enjoy Dragon Age combat options.

Actually, as I watch my eldest play through DAI, I am reminded how well the combat works, minus all the colours and confusion. Either TPS type or pulled back and overview. That could be very cool.

I think FFXII and FF13's systems are pretty well done, kind of blending strategy with the pressure of real-time actions. I especially think 13 is underrated, but that's just my opinion.

If you expand on options I believe this could prove to be a useful systematic.

Looking forward to FF15, although I played the demo and thought the battle system was still a jumbled mess.... but still :/

 

[Mebrilia]

Is perfectly viable make a system stat and skill based that answer well in real time....

For example a character with low skill in shooting could have problems with the recoil of the weapons shooting and creating a wide sprite of bullets instead of a steady brust....

It is indeed possible..
Bloodlines did it....

 

[Tarathelion]

Is perfectly viable make a system stat and skill based that answer well in real time....

For example a character with low skill in shooting could have problems with the recoil of the weapons shooting and creating a wide sprite of bullets instead of a steady brust....

It is indeed possible..
Bloodlines did it....

Bloodline combat was probably the worst part of that game. You are right though that you can play with some ideas of stats affecting shooting mechanics but you can't really do a real time mechanic that does not involve players skill (at least not well) in some capacity (aiming being the obvious one)

 

[Suhiira]

I just can't figure how they are going to give us the RP-joy of PnP with the deadliness and excitement of FNFF. Best I got is bullet-time and sequential attacks, but you know, VATS was always kinda meh. And I liked VATS.

I enjoy Dragon Age combat options.

I can't think of any way to combine FPS and RPG combat into one system that won't be problematic (at best) and piss off both FPS and RPG players. They really need to make CP2077 an FPS, but include a pause and aim option like VATS did. The FPS gamers can ignore it and play CP2077 as an typical FPS where player skill and reactions govern combat and the RPG gamers can use VATS which is governed by character stats and skills.

While VATS definitely has it's problems even a bullet-time or freeze-time system still requires player rather then character skill in terms of accuracy.

I also found the DA:O combat system very enjoyable (we'll ignore DA:2 and DA:I) and thought the NPC action scripting system worked pretty darn well. If CP2077 is a player party vice purely single character game CDPR could do far worse then copy DA:O's system and add a few refinements.

Bloodline combat was probably the worst part of that game. You are right though that you can play with some ideas of stats affecting shooting mechanics but you can't really do a real time mechanic that does not involve players skill (at least not well) in some capacity (aiming being the obvious one).

Exactly.
Any real-time system will make character skills if not irrelevant at best a minor factor.

 

[Tarathelion]

The problem with vats is that it does not really work well. It serves it purpose in terms shooting, but its not really good one when you combine it with movement. Usually ,(at least in F3) you would use your action points, run away until they regenerate and use them again. If the game would be in third person, then you could change into isometric view and add full turn based mode. The problem is, there is quite a lot of challenges to do so. From camera to skills design. Things that would work in real time don't necessarily would work in turn one. Besides, turn mode with single character does not work that well. In group setup, it can be great

 

[Suhiira]

You could use something similar to the system in X-Com. Your character has X number of "Action Points" (based on agility with a possible minor modifier for intelligence) and when you pause you can give your character orders to move, take cover, shoot, whatever, each using a number of "Action Points". Once you run out you're done for the turn. Then un-pause and both the character and NPCs perform their actions during that period of time. At then end you either have to re-pause again, and you have your full "Action Point" allowance, or take over and play in real-time.

 

[Tarathelion]

You could use something similar to the system in X-Com. Your character has X number of "Action Points" (based on agility with a possible minor modifier for intelligence) and when you pause you can give your character orders to move, take cover, shoot, whatever, each using a number of "Action Points". Once you run out you're done for the turn. Then un-pause and both the character and NPCs perform their actions during that period of time. At then end you either have to re-pause again, and you have your full "Action Point" allowance, or take over and play in real-time.

The question is, would that be fun? One problem with that is, that when both you and your opponent move at same time, you need to make adjustements as you would behave differently if he suddenly stars charging for example. Now imagine, you going against 5 different enemies all moving, shooting,throwing granades. You would have to stop and adjust your moves all the time

 

[PillarBiter]

I would be pretty happy with an actual FPS (or 3rd PS, whatever), and simply: if you get shot in the head, you're done for. In the leg, you can't move decently anymore. In the arm? Forget about decent aiming. To actually have dire consequences for getting shot? Man, that'd be a first. And none of that auto-regenerating stuff. ugh. (unless you have cybernetic enhancements for that, of course...).
Such hard consequences would actually make you fear a gunfight. But if it's your cup of tea to shoot everything up and you're good enough? Hey, be my guest.

Edit: with regards to my earlier posts. If they smear some FFXII over that, well... I'd be very interested to see how they would manage to do that.

 

[Mebrilia]

Well this is supposed to be an RPG not a FPS we have hard reset for that period.

 

[KyleRowley]

Interesting topic guys, has been a good read .

 

[Tarathelion]

Ha, we'got a lurker

The one thing i could see working is if you have a slowdown (kinda like witcher throwing bombs). The length of the slowdown would depend on your agility skills, the degree of slowdown would (faster, slower) would be dependant on your initiative/reflex. During slowdown you could target specific parts of the body similar to vats, or even do some special stuff like shooting grenades. Obviously aiming would be manual (you move cursor to specific part of opponent) but when you click on specific part of the body, your shot ,is calculated by your weapon skills (hit or miss, critical chance). Damage is probably best decided by weaponry while recoil by both your ability with weapons and weapons themselves. Plus you can play with weapon shaking if you suck at it, different cursor target size implying greater or lesser accuracy and so on

 

[metalmaniac21]

Bloodline combat was probably the worst part of that game.

I disagree. Vampire's combat is pretty much combat you'd expect from RPG. If your character suck, you suck at this too. Simple as that. And can't say guns are badly executed like Fallout 3's dishonesty. Recoil is hitting hard as rock unlike modern shooters like Fallout 4's dishonesty.

 

[Sardukhar]

What about Max Payne bullettime? Duration and start determined by initiative and REF? You can turn it off in menu if you want, but slowing down everything a -lot- makes combat much less twitch. Looks cool too.

 

[metalmaniac21]

What about Max Payne bullettime? Duration and start determined by initiative and REF? You can turn it off in menu if you want, but slowing down everything a -lot- makes combat much less twitch. Looks cool too.

Weren't there special cyberware in CP2020 for basically a slow down effect? And one of them is unswitchable?

 

[cyseal]

Deus Ex: Mankind Divided / Dishonored playstyle has the most profound gameplay for cyberpunk setting. Of course, it could have even more depth. This is my personal taste.

 

[Sardukhar]

Weren't there special cyberware in CP2020 for basically a slow down effect? And one of them is unswitchable?

Sandevistan and Kerenzikov, yes. Those boost init checks by up to 30 and 20% of human maximum respectively. 60% and 40% of human average.

So, significant. They would add that degree of slowdown to bulletime.

But they don't cause a specific slow time effect, no. Just make you much faster. How that effect is rendered depends on Ref.

 

[metalmaniac21]

But they don't cause a specific slow time effect, no. Just make you much faster. How that effect is rendered depends on Ref.

The phrase describing Kerenzikov one catched the attenion - "the user must learn to readjust his or her actions to a world that appears to be moving in slow motion".
So, at some point (just after installing), slow motion is kinda proper rendering effect. I guess, the "reajusting" is put on a user's organism.

 

[BoboTheMighty]

I disagree. Vampire's combat is pretty much combat you'd expect from RPG. If your character suck, you suck at this too. Simple as that. And can't say guns are badly executed like Fallout 3's dishonesty. Recoil is hitting hard as rock unlike modern shooters like Fallout 4's dishonesty.

Eh, no. Animations, hit reactions, AI...all poor, doesn't matter if it's an rpg.

If they add "powers", Vanquish ( I think I mentioned this before ) is a lesson-to-be-learned for all developers on how to tie them with shooting/movement mechanics instead of generic bind it to keys and spam whenever you like.

To make player more proactive, they could tie to it adrenaline mechanic, depending on variety of player actions ( movement maneuverability like in RE VI, specific, targeting of vulnerable body parts like in Binary Domain) and skill( headshots, accurate reloads, etc), to mitigate stick to cover play of typical TPS ( usually resolved with waves of enemies rushing or spamming grenades on you).

Plus, further upgrades could allow the player to overload or add on top a variety of secondary effects. Or energy would also draw from your health, giving it a more high risk/high gain feel.

Entire skill trees could be made on this, making combat way more dynamic and interesting than in any TPS, while having a ton character building as result.

Imo, far better than building character ( like in Fallout/Wasteland) through +x% percentage to damage/to hit with pistols and shooting like a drunkard without any skill.

 

[Grotesque]

If this game wants to be an RPG, player reflexes should NOT be the ones that are important in combat.

If this game will be another shooter on the market, I would be disappointed.
Combat will be in third person perspective. I can bet on it because that's what CD Projekt does.
All that's left is to hope that combat will be a hybrid with enough RPG elements & mechanics so that it will not feel as just another shooter on the market. (like the last Deus Ex which was a glorified FPS)

You want urgency and tension in a turn based combat system?
Make it time constrained so that the player must react to situations and adapt under time pressure.

PS: WATS? Are you kidding me? Kill it with fire.