Combat system

[0248991]

Hi,
I would like to see somewhat more "skill shot" based combat than in Witcher 3, e.g.:
- combat with melee weapons by dragging it with mouse
- (depending on some talent, or whatever) gun zoom = e.g. - new character has to shoot in 3rd person, but with some talents, level, skill, etc,...; he can "more" zoom to see from weapon perspective
- same as previous point with other skills, e.g. tossing explosive - low level = Witcher 3 bomb like toss; higher level possibilities = slowed time, AOE showed on the ground, entities in AOE colored, ...
- skills can hit and kill anything - enemies, allies, chickens, random people around, ...
- implants also have capabilities; same as all other weapons - they can be (easily) damaged, etc... -> no iron man stuff please
- maybe somewhat turn based - like "strategic mode" in some situations - e.g. stopped time to check area of fight from height, command allies, check map, targets, destination, preparing action, spend some "action points" to provide buffs and debuffs for next turn, etc...

 

[Raxaphan]

Is it plausible for CP2077 to include parkour elements in its movement and combat system?

I hope it is ok to ask this here and not make a new topic about it.

 

[Snowflakez]

Is it plausible for CP2077 to include parkour elements in its movement and combat system?

I hope it is ok to ask this here and not make a new topic about it.

Sard has said it's fine to go a tiny bit OT as long as the topic drives back to its original point. Sometimes he merges stuff if it fits better elsewhere, but I don't think I've ever seen him (or any other mod) out right delete a post that wasn't trolling or being rude or something.

Not sure how it's handled in the PnP but from a game design perspective, sure it is - just depends on what level of parkour you want.

Jumping between and scaling buildings? Possibly, but probably not really a good use of resources if there's going to be flying vehicles, not to mention how unrealistic and dangerous it would be. People die in real life when they try this sh*t, with a few exceptions.

If you mean vaulting over cover, jumping between smaller obstacles and climbing short/medium-sized walls... Sure, why not? Most games have that. Witcher 3 had very, very limited elements of it, and since this is a city setting, nothing wrong with expanding upon (or at least making it not so clunky) it for 2077.

At the very least, improved animations for stuff like vaulting, sprinting and the like would be appreciated. Witcher 3's were very high quality but a bit goofy at times.

 

[exogenesis09]

Sorry ... but if you look around a bit you'll find I've discussed why (physics wise) the ability of a human size/mass person to be be bullet proof is pure fantasy, which I think has no place in CP2077. And dodging bullets is ever further into the realm of fantasy.

If this sort of thing appeals strongly to you I recommend you pick up a copy of "Shadowrun". I devoutly hope such things have no place in a CP2077 based on the pretty damn realistic, i.e. good Science Fiction, CP2020 PnP.

Didn’t the Game has suppose to have that kind of technology? I thought this game revolves around Human and Robots in the future because it’s like Deus Ex kind of theme? Where you can be an Adam Jensen or Completely become a robot in the Night City? I mean no, Cyberpunk 2077 timeline is further more later than Deus Ex Timeline.

I’m not talking about the combat when you are a human on the game because I already understand that Cyberpunk 2077 Combat will be Realistic aka Physics Wise. I am interested making progress on the game being human and achieve my dream to become a Mechanical Augmented like Adam Jensen at later stage of the game.

If there is really no technology in the future that can detect bullets from coming, dodge, accelerate your speed etc. with your Cybernetic Abilities just like Adam Jensen has. How do you think combat will go? Is it just more just like GTA on futuristic technology Shooter game then later stage at the game you are still a Shooter? That’s kinda an EA Style of making type of RPG.

 

[Snowflakez]

Didn’t the Game has suppose to have that kind of technology? I thought this game revolves around Human and Robots in the future because it’s like Deus Ex kind of theme? Where you can be an Adam Jensen or Completely become a robot in the Night City? I mean no, Cyberpunk 2077 timeline is further more later than Deus Ex Timeline.

I’m not talking about the combat when you are a human on the game because I already understand that Cyberpunk 2077 Combat will be Realistic aka Physics Wise. I am interested making progress on the game being human and achieve my dream to become a Mechanical Augmented like Adam Jensen at later stage of the game.

If there is really no technology in the future that can detect bullets from coming, dodge, accelerate your speed etc. with your Cybernetic Abilities just like Adam Jensen has. How do you think combat will go? Is it just more just like GTA on futuristic technology Shooter game then later stage at the game you are still a Shooter? That’s kinda an EA Style of making type of RPG.

Well, nobody can predict the future. Nobody knows where the world will be in 20, 30, or even 50 years. Could be we come up with some metal alloy that is both bulletproof and super lightweight... but the point Su is making (correct me if I'm wrong) is that it's pretty unlikely, and in the context of Cyberpunk's tabletop/PnP roots, nonexistent. But again, none of us can say for sure. Some of us have our dealbreakers, though, and unrealistic, FPS combat is one of Su's. Mine are a bit more flexible, but still quite in line with that.

I actually don't really know why the girl in the trailer was able to shrug off the bullets, but I believe Su came up with an explanation some time ago about it being mostly for show, as the trailer was really just an advertisement to get people to join the dev team. I doubt we'll actually be able to reach that level in the game.. It would make everything tremendously boring if so. Where's the risk if you can just walk through bullets with impunity?

As for parrying/dodging/blocking bullets, I think you're asking for more of a fast-paced action game, not an RPG. The two are very different from each other. Deus Ex, for example, is not an RPG but a stealth action game. Just because it has "skills" (they're actually perks) doesn't make it an RPG. No stats, no dialogue checks, nada.

Furthermore, Deus Ex/Adam Jensen style augmentations are not the same as CP2020 or (maybe) 2077 augmentations. There's some overlap for sure, but Deus Ex almost seems based more in fantasy than realism and actual science. But even in Deus Ex I don't recall any abilities that let you dodge or block bullets, so not sure if that comparison even applies to begin with.

Couple clarifying points:

• Yes, there will absolutely be augmentations. What exactly they are remains to be seen, but I think at the very least we'll see stuff like cybernetic limbs, brain/body implants to enhance certain human functions (reaction times, speed, stuff like that), etc. - but probably not to the degree you want (blocking or dodging bullets).
• Cyberpunk 2077 will be an RPG. What type of RPG it is... Nobody can say. Could be an action RPG like the Witcher 3, could be a more true, hardcore RPG like Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines... We can only speculate. However, most of us expect/believe/hope it will be fairly grounded in reality.

 

[Suhiira]

As for parrying/dodging/blocking bullets, I think you're asking for more of a fast-paced action game, not an RPG. The two are very different from each other. Deus Ex, for example, is not an RPG but a stealth action game. Just because it has "skills" (they're actually perks) doesn't make it an RPG. No stats, no dialogue checks, nada.

Furthermore, Deus Ex/Adam Jensen style augmentations are not the same as CP2020 or (maybe) 2077 augmentations. There's some overlap for sure, but Deus Ex almost seems based more in fantasy than realism and actual science. But even in Deus Ex I don't recall any abilities that let you dodge or block bullets, so not sure if that comparison even applies to begin with.

Certain "Action Game" elements fit just fine in CP2020 (therefore CP2077), cybernetic legs would allow you to jump from street level to the roof of a nearby 1-2 story building. Batman style grapples would allow you to "reverse repel" up the sides of buildings, Will this short of thing be included in CP2077 when CDPR releases it ... who knows.

With luck CDPR will use CP2077 to lay a good foundation for future installments of the series. Night City is a big place, there's absolutely no need to recreate the base world in future Cyberpunk titles, just expand on the initial one. Add the elements that were left out of the original game due to time/budget, new stories can literally be found just around the corner. If they're smart, and want to go that direction, we can use our same character in each installment of the game, just like Geralt was the focus of all the Witcher games. If you want to experiment with different characters, fine, but imagine being able to use the same one?

Part of what makes this even possible would be a solid, and stable, set of game/world mechanics. Once you start to depart from reality, while it opens immense possibilities, it opens even larger problems.

At the end of game #1 our protagonist had acquired the mystical Armor of Invulnerability for the final Boss fight ... now nothing less then an autocannon will effect them therefore every street hood in game #2 must be armed with an autocannon.

Problem maybe?

 

[Snowflakez]

Certain "Action Game" elements fit just fine in CP2020 (therefore CP2077), cybernetic legs would allow you to jump from street level to the roof of a nearby 1-2 story building. Batman style grapples would allow you to "reverse repel" up the sides of buildings, Will this short of thing be included in CP2077 when CDPR releases it ... who knows.

With luck CDPR will use CP2077 to lay a good foundation for future installments of the series. Night City is a big place, there's absolutely no need to recreate the base world in future Cyberpunk titles, just expand on the initial one. Add the elements that were left out of the original game due to time/budget, new stories can literally be found just around the corner. If they're smart, and want to go that direction, we can use our same character in each installment of the game, just like Geralt was the focus of all the Witcher games. If you want to experiment with different characters, fine, but imagine being able to use the same one?

Part of what makes this even possible would be a solid, and stable, set of game/world mechanics. Once you start to depart from reality, while it opens immense possibilities, it opens even larger problems.

At the end of game #1 our protagonist had acquired the mystical Armor of Invulnerability for the final Boss fight ... now nothing less then an autocannon will effect them therefore every street hood in game #2 must be armed with an autocannon.

Problem maybe?

True, unless we're going with a created character - in which case an import may not even be possible for game #2. But I agree that it's pretty important to lay the foundation now and expand upon it later. It's actually one of the reasons I worry they've bitten off more than they can chew...

...but that's why CDPR is so great, and that's why I love them so much. They don't just make "Witcher 2.5" like the CoD, Assassin's Creed and even -- to a lesser degree -- GTA fellas do. They reinvent themselves every single time.

 

[Suhiira]

...but that's why CDPR is so great, and that's why I love them so much. They don't just make "Witcher 2.5" like the CoD, Assassin's Creed and even -- to a lesser degree -- GTA fellas do. They reinvent themselves every single time.

And they have a wonderful opportunity to do so again here.
Yes ... duh ... some people will be disappointed if CP2077 doesn't include some pet feature or another. But if CDPR approaches it from the standpoint of the foundation of a truly epic future structure rather then the typical essentially one-use game setting seen in 99% of games wouldn't it be pretty damn amazing?
And cement their place as game developers that care about their customers AND have an eye toward the future?

 

[exogenesis09]

As for parrying/dodging/blocking bullets, I think you're asking for more of a fast-paced action game, not an RPG. The two are very different from each other. Deus Ex, for example, is not an RPG but a stealth action game. Just because it has "skills" (they're actually perks) doesn't make it an RPG. No stats, no dialogue checks, nada.



Couple clarifying points:

• Yes, there will absolutely be augmentations. What exactly they are remains to be seen, but I think at the very least we'll see stuff like cybernetic limbs, brain/body implants to enhance certain human functions (reaction times, speed, stuff like that), etc. - but probably not to the degree you want (blocking or dodging bullets).
• Cyberpunk 2077 will be an RPG. What type of RPG it is... Nobody can say. Could be an action RPG like the Witcher 3, could be a more true, hardcore RPG like Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines... We can only speculate. However, most of us expect/believe/hope it will be fairly grounded in reality.

I agree no one really knows what will be on the future but why you look like telling me that the game won’t have going to have some sort of blocking, parrying, and dodging mechanics? Is it because the game will be fairly grounded in reality? We are talking about Combat System here people and Combat is part of Action Genre and We can’t deny that the game has a chance to be an Action Game.

Everything is possible on Science. I’m 100% that Technology is made through Science. Yes, an augmentations that can block,dodge, and shield bullets is possible. If you guys is still going to expect the game to be more grounded in reality then understand what will be on the game. Overthinking? Yes? The game set on future Period. Stop saying like “ah that’s looks unlikely to happen blocking bullets is just mere fantasy”. No MAN! Our current info about our character on this game is that we can create our own character and I know we are Human on this game with a realistic mechanics through Physics but that’s just telling me the game will be like GTA 5. Yes!! That’s why I’m talking about this augmentations and possible abilities you can have later on the game. Blocking and Dodging Bullets can be happened in Reality therefore I can say this type of argument in here is likely to become possible for Combat System.


I’m not even talking about Fast-paced combat but at least it should be more better than Witcher 3 right??? I can see Geralt Combat on Mediocore-paced of combat (Not too Slow & Not too Fast) . I like too see more of that on Cyberpunk 2077 through but changing it through Gadgets and Devices you going to augment to your character until you become a complete Robot later or sooner on the game. It may not be look like balance in your perceptive but I know one thing for sure and that there is a lot of weapons out there on Cyberpunk Timeline that can destroy Robots without using Guns so Let’s stop overreacting that it won’t likely to happen. Cmon it’s Cyberpunk. Cheers.

 

[Snowflakez]

I agree no one really knows what will be on the future but why you look like telling me that the game won’t have going to have some sort of blocking, parrying, and dodging mechanics? Is it because the game will be fairly grounded in reality? We are talking about Combat System here people and Combat is part of Action Genre and We can’t deny that the game has a chance to be an Action Game.

Combat is part of virtually every genre. Not just action. I'd argue that it predates action by quite a few years, in fact. Yes, there's a possibility the game will be an action RPG, but not an action game. It's an RPG. Period. CDPR has said that many times.

There's a reason Mike Pondsmith has signed off on it, and there's a reason CDPR chose a pen and paper role playing game as their source material. Furthermore, the developers were huge fans of the PnP back in the day. It is not unreasonable to expect it to take a lot of its queues from the source material.

The ability to parry bullets... does not really seem like something that would make sense with that in mind. Yes, anything is possible with science, but even with the state of tech in CP2020, I don't see 57 years leading to turning humans into literal gods who can't be hurt by conventional weapons. Sorry, sounds like we'll have to agree to disagree.

I was specifically referring to dodging, parrying and blocking bullets, by the way. Of course there's every possibility that you can parry/block/dodge melee attacks. It was in TW3, after all.

I'm not sure why you seem to be so frustrated, it's OK for us to disagree.

 

[Suhiira]

Everything is possible on Science.

Afraid not.
There are limitations in place enforced by the Laws of Physics that cannot be violated.

####################
Let's spend a few moments looking at what would be required to dodge bullets (since this is a very popular fantasy game concept).

The human nervous system basically consists of three elements.
Brain
Nerves
Synapses

The brain and nerves are basically electrical in nature thus operate close enough to the speed of light as to be non issues, but synapses ... the connectors between nerve segments ... are tiny chemically operated junctions. They operate (comparatively) glacially slow. They cannot operate faster then they do because they have to create, transmit, and receive those chemicals; and that process is governed by various physical laws which are involatile, they're as fast as they are and no faster, period.

Even if you could somehow detect exactly what path a bullet was going to travel from the sound of the gunshot that wouldn't help because bullets generally travel faster then the speed of sound ... by the time you hear the gunshot you've already been hit. So somehow you need to be able to see something the size of a bullet, moving as fast as a bullet, and calculate it's flight path in mere fractions of a second ... how?

How is your skin going to handle the air friction of supersonic speeds as you move some portion of your body out of the way of the bullet without being ripped right off your body or burnt to a crisp?

How much energy is required for your muscles to move at supersonic speeds? What if you're already moving and need to alter the direction of movement to avoid the bullet? Damn ... Conservation of Momentum sux. But ... if you accelerate to the speeds necessary to avoid bullets are your joints and the attachments of your muscles to your skeleton strong enough to handle such stresses without being ripped to shreds? And just how much energy is needed to achieve such speeds?
####################

So ... sorry folks ... fun as it may sound, and as often as we see it used in comic books and movies ... dodging bullets ain't even remotely possible in reality.

 

[Hoplite_22]

These of course are similar problems to those encountered grafting synthetic materials on to the human body. sends your immune system mental.

 

[Suhiira]

Mispost

 

[Snowflakez]

Mispost

NO! I MUST KNOW WHAT IT WAS. TELL US.

 

[Sardukhar]

So ... sorry folks ... fun as it may sound, and as often as we see it used in comic books and movies ... dodging bullets ain't even remotely possible in reality.

Wrong.

Predictive software. You don't have to outmaneuver the bullet, just the shooter.

Also, Laws of Physics break down in lots of places. One of the best examples, double slit experiment. Richard Feynman: "a phenomenon which is impossible […] to explain in any classical way, and which has in it the heart of quantum mechanics. In reality, it contains the only mystery [of quantum mechanics]."

I'm all about keeping it real in terms of Cyberpunk-Just-Past-Now feel, but I wouldn't make the mistake of saying that Science Now is Science Forever or that the Laws are immutable, fully understood and a hard limit on, well, anything.

 

[Suhiira]

Wrong.
Predictive software. You don't have to outmaneuver the bullet, just the shooter.

Every bit as "fiction" as outmaneuvering the bullet.

Please explain to me how your mystical predictive software has access to the data it NEEDS to determine:
1) The location of the shooter
2) Which direction the shooter is facing
3) If the shooters weapon is even loaded
4) The condition of the shooters weapon and ammo (both of which have a dramatic effect on accuracy)
5) The precise fraction of a second the shooter will pull the trigger
6) Accurately determines the mechanical and chemical delay between the time the trigger is pulled - the hammer strikes the firing pin, the firing pin strikes the primer, the primer ignites the powder - and the projectile leave the barrel.

Shall I continue?

Also, Laws of Physics break down in lots of places. One of the best examples, double slit experiment. Richard Feynman: "a phenomenon which is impossible […] to explain in any classical way, and which has in it the heart of quantum mechanics. In reality, it contains the only mystery [of quantum mechanics]."

I'm all about keeping it real in terms of Cyberpunk-Just-Past-Now feel, but I wouldn't make the mistake of saying that Science Now is Science Forever or that the Laws are immutable, fully understood and a hard limit on, well, anything.

Believe me I'm fully aware of ( and think I'm starting to comprehend) the oddities involved in quantum mechanics.

I guess I'm too much of an engineer at heart.
My approach is "show me how it works" ... apparently the rest of you are "prove to me it can't".
Sorry ... very difficult to prove a negative, so I guess we'll just have do it your way ... anything you can dream up should be included you can't prove it might not be possible.

 

[Hoplite_22]

I mean it is possible to "dodge" bullets in the real world, it's called taking cover before they start firing

 

[MatthiasaGarnoth]

Every bit as "fiction" as outmaneuvering the bullet.

Please explain to me how your mystical predictive software has access to the data it NEEDS to determine:
1) The location of the shooter
2) Which direction the shooter is facing
3) If the shooters weapon is even loaded
4) The condition of the shooters weapon and ammo (both of which have a dramatic effect on accuracy)
5) The precise fraction of a second the shooter will pull the trigger
6) Accurately determines the mechanical and chemical delay between the time the trigger is pulled - the hammer strikes the firing pin, the firing pin strikes the primer, the primer ignites the powder - and the projectile leave the barrel.

Shall I continue?


Believe me I'm fully aware of ( and think I'm starting to comprehend) the oddities involved in quantum mechanics.

I guess I'm too much of an engineer at heart.
My approach is "show me how it works" ... apparently the rest of you are "prove to me it can't".
Sorry ... very difficult to prove a negative, so I guess we'll just have do it your way ... anything you can dream up should be included you can't prove it might not be possible.

1) Dependent on sensor detection vs target. (not unlike a radar type system if using contemporary analogies) If you don't know where the shooter is but they know where you are, you are as good as dead.
2) Does not matter
3) The direction the weapon is facing is what matters not which way the shooter is facing, This is again based on set of of either active or passive sensors
4) Statistical "cone" but at short range not an issue. At longer range ammunition really does have a flight time. Realistically accuracy will be within 0.5 m at 100 m at worst case, for weapons other than shotguns, with a smooth bore firing an undersized round and both having wide tolerances for production. Given the setting such a weapon would likely only be used at close range. A shotgun will obviously have a much larger spread but it is also much easier for body armor to stop.
5) Does not matter
6) does not matter

Basically what matters most is which way the weapon is facing, the type of weapon for general accuracy characteristics, likely ammunition used for general trajectory based on velocity and projectile spread (can project multiple paths), and weather for better trajectory predictions. More data points can of course be used for increased accuracy. Of course all of that becomes a bit simpler once the weapon is fired even a single time unless mixing ammo...

For ease of use it can be generally assumed a weapon is kept decent shape to minimize misfires in actual combat, and one generally wouldn't use an intentionally inaccurate weapon at normal combat ranges with normal rates of fire. Yes, if those do not true the predictions can likely be thrown off pretty far off but all still within some statistically significant area. More standardized military grade equipment would be much easier to predict.

Most of these are based on a significant increase in processing and sensor capabilities since shooting a missile out of the sky, or a sniper hitting a target at over 2km, is a bit different than tracking a human size target, or every human size object, within a few 100 meters within a city and their displayed weapons.

 

[Suhiira]

Most of these are based on a significant increase in processing and sensor capabilities since shooting a missile out of the sky, or a sniper hitting a target at over 2km, is a bit different than tracking a human size target, or every human size object, within a few 100 meters within a city and their displayed weapons.

A "bit".

Also at urban ranges the flight time of a bullet is close enough to instantaneous you really have to predict where it's going before it's fired in order to have any time to react.

 

[MatthiasaGarnoth]

Obviously which is why knowing where its actually pointed is of vital importance. If one doesn't know that much good luck. Its about staying out of that projected path, If the path intersects assume one is dead.