Combat system

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Deus Ex: Mankind Divided / Dishonored playstyle has the most profound gameplay for cyberpunk setting. Of course, it could have even more depth. This is my personal taste.

In depth?... Not sure... When i play deus ex i always feel super limited like playing in a theme park and not a cyberpunk game...
I had way more in depth moments in to shadowrun dragonfall that is a turn based RPG... Despite being turn based or not... Cyberpunk2077 needs to deliver the Cyberpunk feels... In orded to do so the cd project if they want make a real time system they also have to think how to tie perfectly stat and skills to it... and don't make this game you solve 90% of situation shooting...

Combat in Cyberpunk is Deadly... Dangerous... And after this you will have to deal always with hard consequences.... If cd project will fail to deliver this... the cyberpunk feel will be broken.. and will be just another theme park game..

If i want to play an high tech setting FPS we already have COD advanced warfare and Hard reset for that.... also Dishonored cyberpunk? i don't think so
 
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You make the exact same mistake so many game publishers make (*cough* E/A), you assume a game sells well because it's an action or open world game. Nothing could be further from the truth. Games sell well because they are good games, not because of the style of the game. Admittedly some game markets are smaller then others but a lot of this is due to exposure, people like to play games similar to ones they have previously played. Does that make those types of games "better"? By no means, all it means is they sell more copies.
I never say action is guarantee well selling game, I say well selling game has common element —— action, it's the result. And sell well ≠ "good" COD was the top sell game last game but it not the best game last year. Business is business, "good" is not Business, but if you do Business then abide by business rules.
People believe what they believe but truth doesn't.
Top sell this generation ps4 from vgchartz
1. Call of Duty: Black Ops 3 Shooter
2. Grand Theft Auto V Action
3. FIFA 16 Sports
4. Star Wars Battlefront Shooter
5. Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare Shooter
6. Fallout 4 2015 Role-Playing
7. FIFA 15 2014 Sports
8. Destiny 2014 Shooter
9. The Last of Us Action
10. Uncharted: The Nathan Drake Collection Action
11. Uncharted 4: A Thief's End Shooter
12. Watch Dogs Action
13. Far Cry 4 Shooter
14. Minecraft Misc
15. Assassin's Creed: Unity Action
16. NBA 2K16 Sports
17. Batman: Arkham Knight Action
18. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Role-Playing
19. Call of Duty: Ghosts Shooter
20. Tom Clancy's The Division Shooter
 

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I never say action is guarantee well selling game, I say well selling games has common element —— action, it's the result. And sell well ≠ "good" COD was the top sell game last game but it not the best game last year. Business is business, "good" is not Business, but if you do Business then abide by business rules.
People believe what they believe but truth doesn't.
Top sell this generation ps4 from vgchartz
1. Call of Duty: Black Ops 3 Shooter
2. Grand Theft Auto V Action
3. FIFA 16 Sports
4. Star Wars Battlefront Shooter
5. Call of Duty: Advanced Warfare Shooter
6. Fallout 4 2015 Role-Playing
7. FIFA 15 2014 Sports
8. Destiny 2014 Shooter
9. The Last of Us Action
10. Uncharted: The Nathan Drake Collection Action
11. Uncharted 4: A Thief's End Shooter
12. Watch Dogs Action
13. Far Cry 4 Shooter
14. Minecraft Misc
15. Assassin's Creed: Unity Action
16. NBA 2K16 Sports
17. Batman: Arkham Knight Action
18. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Role-Playing
19. Call of Duty: Ghosts Shooter
20. Tom Clancy's The Division Shooter


And those games Except with witcher 3 are not even to be considered RPG..... Cd project declared to want do a RPG with the cyberpunk feel on it.... That is the main reason why Mike Pondswith joined them "This guys know the source materials" like he declared.....

So in order to have a true cyberpunk RPG.. it has to be to a certain formula....Respecting the setting and the pen and paper rules..or at least adapt the pen and paper rules skill and stats and make a real time hybrid system.....

If they instead deliver an action game with some high tech component and an agumentation system.. and they will make actiony... Maybe will be a great game too... But they will fail the promise because it will be not cyberpunk...

(fallout4: is one of those game labeled as rpg when it's not... but is just a shooter with a dialogue system)

Look what is happened with Sword Coast Legends..

They went out proud declaring the game will be based on 5th ediction on D&D when they released and people noticed it had nothing of D&D at all so many people asked for a refun that they in the end fallen down... N-Core closed.....

Some people may want just a nice thematic action game...... I want and expect a nice cyberpunk RPG
 
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Having read the few last pages of the discussion, it seems most of the comments revolve around TB vs FPS with few comments tossing in the idea of bullet time type of implementation. Has anyone brought up any kind of auto-aim idea? Or is that such a curse word that I'm instantly banned from the forum (way to go with the first post)?

I personally have to side with the people who root for the RPG feel and seem to be fed up with all the AAA games reverting to straight-forward FPS action with very little RPG elements affecting the action gameplay. While FPS does give a LOT better immersion and ability to put yourself into the character's position, I could see that some kind of auto-aim (or auto-aim-off) system could add the RPG element into that design. For example, a character with poor aim and gun-handling skills could wield a gun but wouldn't be able to hit the target as reliably as a character with better skills. At the same time, it would still feel that you're in control of your character but your personal reactions and mouse-skills wouldn't have as big of an impact. The decision to fight or use some other approach would then have more impact to the outcome when you have to take into account your character's skills and can't rely on gunning everything down most of the time.

I know people who play "traditional" FPS games (who prefer them over others - don't want to include everyone) detest the idea of any auto-aim help or similar but I don't see that the point of Cyberpunk would ever be to be a skill-based shooter.
 
To be honest I'm no game designer, and I'm sure that we have not reached the absolute zenith of what game's are capable of in the design of combat encounters in RPGs.

I can list off preferences and familiar things I have enjoyed in the past, but I want to see if CDPR can come up with something I haven't seen, and better still, if they can execute it in a way that is gratifying.
 
I know people who play "traditional" FPS games (who prefer them over others - don't want to include everyone) detest the idea of any auto-aim help or similar but I don't see that the point of Cyberpunk would ever be to be a skill-based shooter.
That's why I keep harping on CP2077 having a dual combat system. A run-of-the-mill-six-dozen-games-just-like-it FPS system and an some sort of pause-n-play system based on character stats and skills. Thus the FPS crowd gets what they want and so do the RPG players.

The problem of course is the FPS crowd won't experience Cyberpunk for what it should be, but to be honest most of them probably don't care.
 
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That's why I keep harping on CP2077 having a dual combat system. A run-of-the-mill-six-dozen-games-just-like-it FPS system and an some sort of pause-n-play system based on character stats and skills. Thus the FPS crowd gets what they want and so do the RPG players.

The problem of course is the FPS crowd won't experience Cyberpunk for what it should be, but to be honest most of them probably don't care.

Well what should or not should be is often matter of preference
 
That's why I keep harping on CP2077 having a dual combat system. A run-of-the-mill-six-dozen-games-just-like-it FPS system and an some sort of pause-n-play system based on character stats and skills. Thus the FPS crowd gets what they want and so do the RPG players.

The problem of course is the FPS crowd won't experience Cyberpunk for what it should be, but to be honest most of them probably don't care.

That would imo, be a recipe for disaster...one should take priority over the other, early action rpg's been poor and have moved away from rpg mechanics for not realizing this.

A shame because it can make game more satisfying even on the "action part"...ironically, this was done a lot better ( at least considering with what they had to work with) by modding community instead of developers. ( Arwen's Realism tweaks, Requiem, etc)

Integrate character stats/skills to have strong effect on his actions in combat without breaking immersion or laws of physics along with high difficulty ( through AI, intuitive restrictions to player progress and encounter design) that would make planned "character building" very much a neccessity for the player to succeed...win/win on both ends. ( though it's never so simple).
 
In the end i think the best solution will be an hybrid system... Sorry FPS purists... But if they want to do what promised and deliver an RPG that have cyberpunk feel stats and skills needs to matter... there is no way out.. no other solution here... If they will make the game just controller based only it won't have the cyberpunk feel it will be just another shooter with cyberpunk themes on it no more no less....

IF i remember well the goal of this project was to deliver an enjoyable RPG for the fan of the pen and paper setting... This don't mean they have to do it turn based that stay sure won't happen... But they really have to traslate what made cyberpunk unique.... So asking this to be just another action game but with a bit of agumentation where you roam around the city and shoot out to get out of any situation this will never give the Cyberpunk feel....

I really miss the time where RPG were made for people loving to Roleplay instead to dumb things down in order to please a crowd that have no interest on rpg...

-People that dislike read and things and say read is boring..
-People that want instant gratification and always be a super hero..
-People that can't imagine a game if you are not forced in a gunfight each 2 minutes...

The problem is in the end.. the action people have a whole lot of titles to play and "have fun" with....

While the Rpg lovers in the other hand......

And with that i don't think there is more to add.
 
Interesting topic guys, has been a good read .
1. There's more worth checking threads next door.
2. I hope you guys still reading this topic...

Weapons in most shooters pretty much works like a hitscan, which is kinda got old these days. No bullet drops, no possible weather intervention, no resemblance of ballistics.
Any moves in right direction from CDPR is much appreciated.
 
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No system is going to be perfect, it's really a matter of "does it work reasonably well".


My problem with bullet-time is that while it may slow the action it's still a player vice character dependent system.


I think that's more dramatic licence on the part of whoever wrote the description then an actual effect.
And think about it, you've spent your whole life up until you get one of these reflex boosters installed doing things at the speed of your reactions, suddenly everything changes. I'd imagine someone who's just gotten one of these much like an infant learning how to control it's own body. In time it'll become so natural you don't even think about it, but not at first.


You could but this might be a little too hands-off, lock your target, watch your character fight. This is fine in a tactical wargame where you're controlling units not individuals.


An action or FPS game can certainly have RPG elements, but as soon as player vice character skills and reactions become the determining factor it's no longer a traditional RPG. And I think most of the people that buy CP2077 think they'll be buying an RPG not an action game or shooter.


Agreed, there's zero need for character skills in an FPS. And like you I won't be buying it because I have zero interest in FPS games.


If this is important to you buy an action game or FPS, don't expect every game to be an action or FPS game because you prefer them.


Since you've apparently decided you speak for me you're 100% wrong.
The market proves various types of games sell, some better then others, and a good many action and FPS games on the market bombed spectacularly so that's hardly a guarantee of a good and well selling game.

The RPG genre term is soo loose and open to interpretation nobody has a clue what rpg actually means any more. Its all up to personal opinion what it means. Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Mass Effect, Dues Ex, Dragons Dogma, Witcher 3, Skyrim, etc are all considered rpgs and are radically different games. As for stat based combat I mean this is the first time seeing someone defend the horrible combat system of Morrowind which was a travesty and universally hated. I am sure modern games want to aim at enemies right on the head and miss point blank shots in CP because their character stats suck. Pure stat based combat is dated and horrible. I like Souls games approach to stats were you improve stuff like stamina, agility, strength, etc but it still mainly takes player skill. Perks and other gadgets would fine too.
 
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Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Mass Effect, Dues Ex, Dragons Dogma, Witcher 3, Skyrim, etc are all considered rpgs and are radically different games.

Actually, if you look at them - and I mean really look at them, past the surface - most of those are not all that diffent. On the contrary, they are quite similiar to one another. Even disturbingly so in certain cases.

The "nobody knows what an RPG is, so it can be anything" is kinda tired argument. Anyone with some history with RPG's - past the console RPG's of the last decade - can name certain key characteristics and mechanics that "traditionally" contribute to "a game being an RPG" (you could tell the difference before... the genre mixing has just blurred the lines a bit) and the lack of which diminishes the experience (which is quite heavily the case in almost all modern RPG's). That's not the topic, though, there's a separate thread for "What's an RPG" somewhere in the community discussion, so I'll leave this at that.
 
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That would imo, be a recipe for disaster...one should take priority over the other, early action rpg's been poor and have moved away from rpg mechanics for not realizing this.
The problem, of course, is player expectations.
Let's face it, most folks play a game for a little mindless diversion and aren't all that interested in story-line, dialog, in-game history/culture, or most of the other elements that make an RPG what it should be. We RPG fans don't have to like it, or understand it, but that's the way it is. The best we can hope for is that someone like CDPR and the folks that do Wasteland, Pillars of Eternity, and Torment continue to make real RPGs while Fallout, Elder Scrolls, and Dragon Age become more-and-more actions games and less-an-less RPGs.

... it won't have the cyberpunk feel it will be just another shooter with cyberpunk themes on it no more no less....

I really miss the time where RPG were made for people loving to Roleplay instead to dumb things down in order to please a crowd that have no interest on rpg...

-People that dislike read and things and say read is boring..
-People that want instant gratification and always be a super hero..
-People that can't imagine a game if you are not forced in a gunfight each 2 minutes...

The problem is in the end.. the action people have a whole lot of titles to play and "have fun" with ...

While the Rpg lovers in the other hand ...
Pretty much.

Let other games cater to the action and FPS game crowd. CDPR says they want to make RPGs, make them, OK you'll sell less copies then if you made it an action/FPS game. What's more important to you CDPR? Making what you want and keeping your smaller but loyal fan base happy or making the most money possible? I'm hoping the former.

As for stat based combat I mean this is the first time seeing someone defend the horrible combat system of Morrowind which was a travesty and universally hated. I am sure modern games want to aim at enemies right on the head and miss point blank shots in CP because their character stats suck. Pure stat based combat is dated and horrible.
So since a 10 year old game had a combat system you personally disliked no one should attempt to innovate on and improve that style of combat? Any game that's not FPS is automatically doomed to failure?

You're free to have and express your own opinion, in fact it's encouraged. But please don't think or make posts that assume your opinion matters any more then anyone else's.
 
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True. I did read the comment too. Then again, I still feel there's a certain difference between locking to a target and aiming at them yourself. Both are of course viable options in my opinion as they don't strip the character skills meaningless as a straightforward FPS might do but at the same time keep the immersion of being in the character that can happen with turn based gameplay.
Anyway, little details.

A big part with these is of course the point of view. Even third person and first person have a big difference and personally I'd love to see a game with first person view and meaningful character skills. At least as an option.
 


So this guy praised CD Projekt at the time of announcement and said how he finally found someone that has the proper respect for the Cyberpunk universe.

I wonder if before agreeing to turn over the rights for the game, he had any input about how combat will be handled and if he forced CD Projekt to respect some broad strokes at least.
He also said that he took regular trips to Poland where he would give his input.
I cannot phantom combat was not discussed at those meetings.
 
So this guy praised CD Projekt at the time of announcement and said how he finally found someone that has the proper respect for the Cyberpunk universe.

I wonder if before agreeing to turn over the rights for the game, he had any input about how combat will be handled and if he forced CD Projekt to respect some broad strokes at least.
He also said that he took regular trips to Poland where he would give his input.
I cannot phantom combat was not discussed at those meetings.
I suspect combat was discussed prior to them coming to an agreement. I seem to recall reading someplace he was totally opposed to someone turning Cyberpunk into a run of the mill FPS or MMO that's why he waited so long before selling anyone the rights to make a game.

That's not to say CP2077 might not have significant FPS elements, and we're almost certain there will be some sort of multi-player.
 
Let's face it, most folks play a game for a little mindless diversion and aren't all that interested in story-line, dialog, in-game history/culture, or most of the other elements that make an RPG what it should be. We RPG fans don't have to like it, or understand it, but that's the way it is. The best we can hope for is that someone like CDPR and the folks that do Wasteland, Pillars of Eternity, and Torment continue to make real RPGs while Fallout, Elder Scrolls, and Dragon Age become more-and-more actions games and less-an-less RPGs


I disagree... Fallout IV received massive amount of criticism precisely for removing those elements. Honestly, I think a lot of "rpg veterans" suffer a bit from elitist attitude next to fans of other genres and too quickly call out for "dumbing down" . I don't see why more "wider" player base, cannot enjoy a ton of dialogue options, customization and character building like in any good rpg...it's not rocket science.


Older rpg's had plenty of issues that made them less fun and "easily accessible" to wider audience, aside from just being more "slow" to play.


Becoming more action oriented also made them more popular, but also improved some of their aspects, which too often are overlooked.


I highly recommend watching Gopher's videos on TES series( well known player and respected among their community) on more grounded perspective than "everything is being dumbed down".


Pretty much.


Let other games cater to the action and FPS game crowd. CDPR says they want to make RPGs, make them, OK you'll sell less copies then if you made it an action/FPS game. What's more important to you CDPR? Making what you want and keeping your smaller but loyal fan base happy or making the most money possible? I'm hoping the former.


It's not really an issue to which "crowd" it caters to, but what type of gameplay is best suited for it. There is a reason why so many isometric games are known for turn based combat system, as those in third person ( especially modern, given the improvements in animation technology) are more action oriented.


And how many TPS are out there with decent rpg mechanics?( which at least to some extent we'll see here)...this could make gameplay in CP, something more interesting than your average shooter out there.


Anyway, this feels like one endless, crazy circle, so before I adios on this thread,( if CDPR isn't going crazy from all demands here), I'll summarize my thoughts on this


Mechanics from other games, CDPR should take note:


"Raw" Gunplay: Max Payne III...from sounds and distinctive difference between each weapon, high animation variance/quality when it comes to hit reactions, sense of precision, flexibility of being able to shoot from every possible position...this is currently, as good as it gets.


Cover system( though not a fan of it)...Gears of War III requires most skill ( "bounce between") and has most complex/interactive cover system.


Sense of Gun impact...Binary Domain, uncontested here. You can "tear away everything" on enemy, with your gun. Immensely addictive and satisfying.


"Powers"...Quantum Break did not have as many as ME, but they did well in "tying" them to gunplay and movement through good camera work and animation sync.


Controls ...MGSV: from sprinting, diving, CQC, sense of "smoothness" when it comes to switching between different "stances", etc.


Melee and movement... Resident Evil VI ( if you remove QTE's), quick and effective, with a ton of contextual animations and interactive with gunplay.


Maneuverability and "connecting" it's mechanics together to a far more dynamic playstyle...Vanquish


Enemy AI...this is a tricky one ( no real consensus here), but FEAR II, Far Cry II and SC Blacklist( more recently) are some of better examples

Also a More vertical (level design) and different methods of traversal

What I'd like CDPR to add:


Rpg mechanics implemented in organic way through complex system that connects player stats, skills and real time actions...this was mentioned enough: from recoil, precision, speed, dynamically altering strength of special "abilities" and so on.


Weapon skills...instead of simple passive upgrades, player could advance by unlocking different abilities only available for specific weapon style( shotgun slideshot, run and shoot with heavy ordinance, etc). In MP or PVE this could really make combat far more interesting and tactical.


Enemy classes which intelligently react in combat and have access to same abilities/skills as the player ( heal or throw a medkit to heavily wounded ally, hack your drones, etc). Player isn't only one in the world who learned a few tricks aside from using a gun.
 
I disagree... Fallout IV received massive amount of criticism precisely for removing those elements. Honestly, I think a lot of "rpg veterans" suffer a bit from elitist attitude next to fans of other genres and too quickly call out for "dumbing down" . I don't see why more "wider" player base, cannot enjoy a ton of dialogue options, customization and character building like in any good rpg...it's not rocket science.


Older rpg's had plenty of issues that made them less fun and "easily accessible" to wider audience, aside from just being more "slow" to play.


Becoming more action oriented also made them more popular, but also improved some of their aspects, which too often are overlooked.


I highly recommend watching Gopher's videos on TES series( well known player and respected among their community) on more grounded perspective than "everything is being dumbed down".





It's not really an issue to which "crowd" it caters to, but what type of gameplay is best suited for it. There is a reason why so many isometric games are known for turn based combat system, as those in third person ( especially modern, given the improvements in animation technology) are more action oriented.


And how many TPS are out there with decent rpg mechanics?( which at least to some extent we'll see here)...this could make gameplay in CP, something more interesting than your average shooter out there.


Anyway, this feels like one endless, crazy circle, so before I adios on this thread,( if CDPR isn't going crazy from all demands here), I'll summarize my thoughts on this


Mechanics from other games, CDPR should take note:


"Raw" Gunplay: Max Payne III...from sounds and distinctive difference between each weapon, high animation variance/quality when it comes to hit reactions, sense of precision, flexibility of being able to shoot from every possible position...this is currently, as good as it gets.


Cover system( though not a fan of it)...Gears of War III requires most skill ( "bounce between") and has most complex/interactive cover system.


Sense of Gun impact...Binary Domain, uncontested here. You can "tear away everything" on enemy, with your gun. Immensely addictive and satisfying.


"Powers"...Quantum Break did not have as many as ME, but they did well in "tying" them to gunplay and movement through good camera work and animation sync.


Controls ...MGSV: from sprinting, diving, CQC, sense of "smoothness" when it comes to switching between different "stances", etc.


Melee and movement... Resident Evil VI ( if you remove QTE's), quick and effective, with a ton of contextual animations and interactive with gunplay.


Maneuverability and "connecting" it's mechanics together to a far more dynamic playstyle...Vanquish


Enemy AI...this is a tricky one ( no real consensus here), but FEAR II, Far Cry II and SC Blacklist( more recently) are some of better examples

Also a More vertical (level design) and different methods of traversal

What I'd like CDPR to add:


Rpg mechanics implemented in organic way through complex system that connects player stats, skills and real time actions...this was mentioned enough: from recoil, precision, speed, dynamically altering strength of special "abilities" and so on.


Weapon skills...instead of simple passive upgrades, player could advance by unlocking different abilities only available for specific weapon style( shotgun slideshot, run and shoot with heavy ordinance, etc). In MP or PVE this could really make combat far more interesting and tactical.


Enemy classes which intelligently react in combat and have access to same abilities/skills as the player ( heal or throw a medkit to heavily wounded ally, hack your drones, etc). Player isn't only one in the world who learned a few tricks aside from using a gun.

Is not about elitism.... Problem is when you make an action focused RPG and you start streamlining character skill and stats.. then you add dialog wheel and voice acting... In the end you will deliver a title that have way more less depth than the past...

IS true that past RPG had their own problems that have nothing to do to an heavy stat skill based system but more because they had technical limitation for the times...

Saying that... If they will made a new baldours gate with improved 3d graphics but keeping the game formula and refining it...For me will be a blast....

Is not subjective that RPG are being dumbed down with plastic elements for get a wider audience... Look at the witcher that is still a marvelous game... In the last game the role of witcher was improved mostly by the way you was handling contract... But again some mechanic felt so plastic that people were basically pray for some modder to fix the issue....

-I am talking by eating during combat....
-The new potion system and the preparation that are totally gone in the third game
-The fact the character don't even have a drinking potion animation and the potion has been reduced to buffs...

And all of this was a design decision to keep the combat fluid (cd project words not mine) so in this the game been dumbed down in this aspect to favor the action smoothness...

Now cd project red still delivered an amazing title i love... But other did this so much and in a whole new level the game is just not an rpg anymore...

Look at fallout 4
Removal of tracts: That was one of those things able to customize more your character...
Removal of Skill: And you have a perk system just like skyrim that will end to make each character similiar one to another again no depth...
Dialog wheel with voice acting: And you have a character that can say: Yes No(that sometimes mean yes) Sarcastic Corner of questions...
Linear quest all totally equal each other: Talk with the quest giver go kill super mutants riders etc etc.. return...

Oh but the shooting was better!...... Is more fluid... it has flashing explosions... and then depth out from the window..

Now some people here don't even seem they want an RPG.... They want controller acrobacy... First person shooting as first choice.... A lot of action...

Not even taking in consideration the source material....

And i repeat it again...
We have enough fps in high tech setting.. and we have also a first person action rpg like called Deus ex.... I don't need another deus ex.. i don't need another shooter
What i expect is a cyberpunk rpg period. We already have a pen and paper system to base off combat or to be adapted in the real time one... We don't need ability,perks,superpowers is all there... And most important this is a product based on a pen and paper roleplay game and should keep his spirit.

And now feel free to call me Elitist for that.
 
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