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Combat Thread - General

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Shaamaan

User
#1
Hello everyone.

Obviously everyone's excited about the new game, and thus far people seem to be positive about it, which is great... I think (I'm generally of the opinion that hype is bad - so I try to keep a cool head).

Anyway, one worry I have about the game is the gunplay, given that this will be an RPG. The problem? Well, anyone here played The Division? The marketing for that game went a long way to indicate that the game is an RPG first, action game second, and there was a nasty side effect of this during the actual gameplay. Since this was a looter-RPG, where every item has stats, weapons and weapon damage was not static, and the health pools of enemies and their resistances would change depending on player level and such. The end result was that you could seemingly shoot some bad guy endlessly in the head with a sniper rifle, and they'd lose but a sliver of health.

This was... bad. First, it was a bit weird when the baddie in question was not a robot, nor some alien mutant but a regular dude in a hoodie... but more importantly, it was just boring! The developers of The Division did some good work on the game since release, and the "bullet sponge" problem has been alleviated somewhat, but it's still there to an extent.

Obviously Cyberpunk can explain toughness because targets will likely have augmentations (heck, the first teaser trailer has the female cyborg getting shot in the face and the bullet shatters, leaving but a scratch), so the first point PROBABLY isn't a problem. But the second point... might be.

I was hoping someone from CDPR could comment on how damage will get calculated and applied, given ranged weapons and this being an RPG. I certainly hope killing enemies with ranged weapons won't be as excruciatingly painful as trying to kill enemies with the crossbow ONLY in The Witcher 3. ;)
 

ghostxix

User
#3
Yes it's always a concern mixing gunplay with rpg. I hope they will pull this off right way, love me some good felling gunplay :)
 
#4
The problem is more complex. Because if enemies are too disposable there will be no motivation to try "alternative" methods of elimination. My guess is that enemies will have seperate health and armour, and you will have to get more creative in order to eliminate the armour component. Stealth takedowns should be lethal.
 
#5
This is something I'm really worried about, especially since reports about the demo mentioned "floating numbers" in combat.
I know it's irrational, but it's easier for me to suspend my disbelief in a fantasy setting, whereas having to dump three magazines into a naked hobo just because he's level 40 would be really disillusioning.
Here's hoping that character development doesn't mean that enemy HP (and yours) multiplies with every level-up.
It could be like S.T.A.L.K.E.R. or p&p games where better gear and cyberware means you're more resistant and have more abilities, but a shot to the head is just as lethal for a high level character as it is to a low level one.

It would also help if weapons had fixed (albeit modifiable) attributes as opposed to the levelled, color-coded lootfest of games like Diablo and The Division.
 

oumajgad

User
#6
I guess combat difficulty will be rather linear. It will of course a bit more difficult over the time in terms of enemies because layer will get better guns, implants and stuff, but...
In Cyberpunk you can easily create enemies that will fit any role from cannon fodder to Boss of All Bosses. With the range of cybernetic enhancements PnP CP had you can meet poor gang member that will die after few 9 mm rounds. You can also meet fully pimped ex-cybersoldier with more metal than meat in his body and end up using all your puny 9mm ammunition on him and doing nothing. But you can always push him down the ledge or use EMP grenade. Or use bigger gun. Or a rocket launcher. Or a tank.

I would be more worried about impact of skills on aiming and damage. Lets say you're fairly skilled FPS player. You can do headshots whenever it is needed. But your character can't. His shooting skills are abyssmal. It will be extremely annoying to miss simply because RNG says so, especialy in FPP, when you do the aiming. Or, God forbid, deal less damage because your skill is low. Like that .50 BMG API cares about who fired it.

There might be some skill impact on lets say critical hit chance, because your character knows how to aim for vitals?

This brings us to Fumble/Critical Success chances. Weapon jams, you hit your friend, you headshotted a guy through the key hole. There's so much of it!
 

Suhiira

User
#7
The thing is most RPGs equate character/NPC durability with level and use a "hit points" system where each level you get more thus become more durable. CP2020 (and presumedly CP2077) do not. Your durability is dependent solely on your stats, so unless those change (which they can, but it ain't easy) you are just as easy to kill at "level" 50 as "level" 1 (CP2020 also doesn't use a traditional leveling system, but it seems CP2077 may use some variant of one).

Also in CP2020 weapons do a set amount of damage (based largely on the caliber of the projectile), there are no "leveled weapons" and no skills that increase weapon damage (with some exception for melee/unarmed). You want to do more damage, get a bigger gun.
 
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4meg

User
#8
Even if a bullet does bounce or shatter off some augmentation, I expect there will be some pretty serious effects that can't be shown in a 2 minute trailer.
 

Huldaerus

User
#9
If they show npc's lvl, maybe its for how much skilled and their equipment quality. ( BudgetArms C-13 or H&K MPK-11 for example)

Because combat in PnP is brutal (like a real life) and I expect noting less actually. Friday Night Firefight if I remember correct.

Burst fire in point black with SMG, and my friend pass out, we barely saved him. And he is actualy wearing combat helmet. (absolutely save his life) Another thing is, our clients bodyguard is fullborg. When we saw her, we almost run away. Because we know she can rip our limbs if she want.

Thats what I expect for NPC diff. not higher health point or +48 version of my rifle. I want to see higher caliber weapons, better armors, deadlier cybernetics. That things is show me to how possibly dangerous is my opponent in if I try to fight.
 
#10
I could go on and on about how I think RPG gunplay should work, but I just hope the gunplay in this particular game can be played in at least somewhat stat driven manner. The idea that when ever combat occurs the game turns into a twitch FPS appalls me.

So... here’s hoping that the tactical mode isn’t scrapped, gun skills affect shooting (accuracy, recoil), and if all else fails, that smart guns are designed to be more of RPG type of approach to combat than the rest of them.
 
#11
I guess I am somewhere in the middle here, personally I really enjoy gameplay which has been described here in The Division (which I am now thinking of trying out, thanks for that) like leveling of everything (characters, guns etc.) as has been described but at the same time I see the need to be able to blow out what's left of some scumbag's brains with a well placed shot in order to communicate the brutality of the setting.

Ultimately even though I would still enjoy bullet sponge type enemies if the combat is really fun, I can definitely see how that wouldn't be ideal for this type of game and so hopefully there is a balance between the two extremes.
 

Suhiira

User
#12
I could go on and on about how I think RPG gunplay should work, but I just hope the gunplay in this particular game can be played in at least somewhat stat driven manner. The idea that when ever combat occurs the game turns into a twitch FPS appalls me.

So... here’s hoping that the tactical mode isn’t scrapped, gun skills affect shooting (accuracy, recoil), and if all else fails, that smart guns are designed to be more of RPG type of approach to combat than the rest of them.
Now that I think of it I'm terrified that SmartGuns may be end-game items and we'll be required to play the majority of the game as an FPS.
 

Snowflakez

User
#13
The thing is most RPGs equate character/NPC durability with level and use a "hit points" system where each level you get more thus become more durable. CP2020 (and presumedly CP2077) do not. Your durability is dependent solely on your stats, so unless those change (which they can, but it ain't easy) you are just as easy to kill at "level" 50 as "level" 1 (CP2020 also doesn't use a traditional leveling system, but it seems CP2077 may use some variant of one).

Also in CP2020 weapons do a set amount of damage (based largely on the caliber of the projectile), there are no "leveled weapons" and no skills that increase weapon damage (with some exception for melee/unarmed). You want to do more damage, get a bigger gun.
I very much hope this is all the case, in some form.
 
#14
Now that I think of it I'm terrified that SmartGuns may be end-game items and we'll be required to play the majority of the game as an FPS.
The Ars Technica preview I just linked to the E3 thread kinda implies that. Saying they can be ”eventually” picked up to autotarget enemies (so possibly just win-guns without mechanical intrigue).

I dunno, this seems to be getting into that downward spiral again.

:confused:
 
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Huldaerus

User
#15
SmartGun for non-FPS players, regular for FPS players is interesting solution actually.
Maybe you can choose beggining of the character creation. Because smartguns need a neural implant if I remember correct.
 

Suhiira

User
#16
SmartGun for non-FPS players, regular for FPS players is interesting solution actually.
Maybe you can choose beggining of the character creation. Because smartguns need a neural implant if I remember correct.
We'll find out eventually.
And I hope that's the case.
 

GW84

User
#17
Any word about the gamepace besides remarks that the combat will be thrilling and fastpaced?

I have quite some trouble with twitch shooting and prefer a more tactical and methodical approach. Will the game offer this?
 
#18
Any word about the gamepace besides remarks that the combat will be thrilling and fastpaced?

I have quite some trouble with twitch shooting and prefer a more tactical and methodical approach. Will the game offer this?
The game will have a difficulty level, which I assume will lower the reaction times of enemies and make it easier for those without good reflexes but.. you can also use stealth, and rely on hacking and technologies to outsmart enemies.. it may even be possible to win the game without killing anyone, I haven't heard this confirmed tho
 

Nyanko73

User
#19
As I understand it, all the encounters will have weaknesses as to what type of damage can be efficient on them so there will be a way to mitigate the sponge effect anyway.
 
#20
Not sure what to say, new to forums completely... But imho the first time I know of...a cyber/punk shooter failed miserably... Don't get me wrong the old school 'Shadowrun' on Sega Genesis and Super Nintendo were great. I played both for hundreds of hours... But the next time we saw a cyber-punk game like them was on the original Xbox as an Fps and it failed miserably... I miss old school rpg styled games.. I may be old but not so old to know what makes for a great game... immersion is all I hear about on many vlogs and I applaud CPR for going this route ... Rpg is missing in this new world of AAA games because mmo fps shooters are the money makers... I hope CPR sticks to their guns and holds onto this awesome genre and proves that fps cannot hold a candle to rpg.