Combat Thread - General

[Suhiira]

Even if that's the case, you would still need to aim, shoot and engage in firefights using that keyboard and mouse. It won't be possible for you to just click at an enemy and V. to do all the fighting by him(her)self just like in some old school CRPGs. Suhiira wants that, and I don't think she's gonna get it. It's just not the type of game/RPG that CDPR is making..

But why can't/shouldn't it be an option?
After all the entire point of an RPG is to play a character not just control an avatar.
There are tons of FPS games out there that let players control avatars, how many games that let them control characters?
If CDPR wants to be different it's a damn good place to start.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

So is the topic still RPG gunplay, how skills/stats affect the gunplay in CP2077 and what sort of (optional) mechanisms could possibly be implemented to lessen the FPSness for people not into the advertised shooter combat? Or is it ”what’s an RPG?”

 

[Suhiira]

So is the topic still RPG gunplay, how skills/stats affect the gunplay in CP2077 and what sort of (optional) mechanisms could possibly be implemented to lessen the FPSness for people not into the advertised shooter combat? Or is it ”what’s an RPG?”

They're rather interrelated, you can't discuss FPS vs RPG gunplay till you can define the difference between the two.

 

[Sardukhar]

They're rather interrelated, you can't discuss FPS vs RPG gunplay till you can define the difference between the two.

Nooooooope. Nope nope nope. That would be too big a topic for this.
If you need to define an RPG use Wikipedia or something.

But don't pull the thread into the as-we-know endless What Be The RPG debate.

If you need a placeholder - an RPG is Witcher 3, Bloodlines, Skyrim, Fallout 1-4. Yes, including 3 and 4.

A Non RPG FPS is Counterstrike, PUBG, ARMA, etc.

Simple enough.

 

[jervi]

I wonder if they will have a consistent policy, or whether it will vary by neighborhood.

 

[Suhiira]

No clue at this point.
I'm not sure they'd arrest you but they certainly would keep a close eye on you.
Expect to be tailed by a drone. And if it suddenly stops transmitting expect someone, or several well armed someones, to show up very soon to find out why.

 

[xer21]

They're rather interrelated, you can't discuss FPS vs RPG gunplay till you can define the difference between the two.

they're not mutually exclusive so you really dont need to differentiate. you dont HAVE to murder gunplay into pure dice rolls for it to remain an RPG, but you CAN do that if you want. Borderlands, Fallout, Deus Ex, STALKER, Mass Effect, Prey...they all have wildly different shooting systems to poke about with. Borderlands and Fallout certainly biases to stats/dice rolls style with their weapon leveling systems (ie level requirments for guns) while STALKER, Deus Ex and Prey all generally give you a lethal loadout at most levels and allow your character trees to take over for differentiating gameplay. Im assuming that CP2077 will have a much larger kill tree compared to Deus Ex and Prey, which were much shorter, compact games, so really, they can make the weapons as skill based or as stat based as they want to.

 

[Suhiira]

I wonder if they will have a consistent policy, or whether it will vary by neighborhood.

Well ... the Combat Zone is basically a police "No Go" section of the city ... so yeah, it varies by neighborhood.

 

[Suhiira]

they're not mutually exclusive so you really dont need to differentiate. you dont HAVE to murder gunplay into pure dice rolls for it to remain an RPG, but you CAN do that if you want.

Not gonna rehash the same topic every time someone that hasn't read the posts earlier in this very thread chimes in.

 

[xer21]

Not gonna rehash the same topic every time someone that hasn't read the posts earlier in this very thread chimes in.

im ignoring them for the sake of staying relatively on topic, and because my opinions on the matter are not beholden to anyone else's. my point is my point and all other comments made in this thread really don't change that. Besides, genre debates arent really the point of the thread.

im saying that there is no hard decide between pure FPS gunplay and an rpg with gunplay. you can go any direction if you compensate in other realms. Prey's gunplay functions like a straight up old school shooter, but the role playing in the game comes from character decisions and character modifications. There's no need to assume there's an arbitrary demarcation between FPS's and RPG's gunplay. If they went straight Unreal Tournament on us in the gunplay, it can still exist in the framework of a deep RPG just like hack and slash elements can exist in an RPG.

 

[Snowflakez]

Not gonna rehash the same topic every time someone that hasn't read the posts earlier in this very thread chimes in.

It's a mistake I've made many times.

 

[Suhiira]

im saying that there is no hard decide between pure FPS gunplay and an rpg with gunplay.

You're of course entitled to your opinion, but just like everyone elses opinion, mine included, it's essentially meaningless.

 

[arti2077]

No clue at this point.
I'm not sure they'd arrest you but they certainly would keep a close eye on you.
Expect to be tailed by a drone. And if it suddenly stops transmitting expect someone, or several well armed someones, to show up very soon to find out why.

This could be an entertaining way to get free backup. hehehehe

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

They're rather interrelated, you can't discuss FPS vs RPG gunplay till you can define the difference between the two.

Yeah, the are. But RPG as a whole is quite a borad topic and it necessarily veers the discussion here off the issue at hand, and as you can see it devolve the arguments to "Well RPG's have other features too so what does some FPS combat matter?" And of course it matters. That there are other RPG features does not remove the fact the combat isn't RPG related if it is not, and whilst fun can be had with those other mechanics, combat remains the cuckoos chick in the nest.

Gunplay mechanics with RPG mechanisms can be discussed separateley since we know there's RPG stuff elsewhere (or at least we can assume). And it's more fruitful - and helpful to REDs in case they read and actually consider any of this stuff - to keep the topic on point.

you can go any direction if you compensate in other realms.

Well that's not really true. It's an unnecessary and disjointed genreswap amidst gameplay, if you have the RPG portion and the FPS portion as separate entities. It wouldn't work the other way around either.

 

[xer21]

Well that's not really true. It's an unnecessary and disjointed genreswap amidst gameplay, if you have the RPG portion and the FPS portion as separate entities. It wouldn't work the other way around either.

have you even tried games that did that? Deus ex and Prey handle it quite well and its a very natural transition. its no differnt than the jump from Baldurs gate/Dragon Age Origins style combat to action RPGs like Dark Souls or The Witcher.

Its all a matter of execution and its already been handled pretty much every major way they could go about it.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

have you even tried games that did that?

Sure. And it feels terrible every time if I approach it as an RPGs. As if the game operates under two different principles. So I take them as they come. I had to bypass the combat in the new Deus Ex games because it was just boring cover shooter combat and not interesting by any metric I could figure. The combat in the original was clumsy as fuck, but the mechanisms that drove it were interesting, so it worked for what it was worth.

But this isn't an immersive sim like DX or Prey. This is supposed to be a genuine RPG. Advertised and insisted as such by the devs, and I would expect the combat to work under the RPG principles too and not have it cut corners there just because hectic FPS gameplay is fashionable; optionally at the very least.

 

[xer21]

Sure. And it feels terrible every time if I approach it as an RPGs. As if the game operates under two different principles. So I take them as they come. I had to bypass the combat in the new Deus Ex games because it was just boring cover shooter combat and not interesting by any metric I could figure.

sounds like a matter of taste. The combat wasn't AMAZING in the new Deus Ex games but it was just fine.

But this isn't an immersive sim like DX or Prey. This is supposed to be a genuine RPG. .

These are not mutually exclusive concepts. Deus ex in particular is an RPG through and through, i dunno what you mean by "genuine" but it feels suspiciously like you really mean that your standards for genres are arbitrary based on how much you think it conforms to traditions.

Advertised and insisted as such by the devs, and I would expect the combat to work under the RPG principles too and not have it cut corners there just because hectic FPS gameplay is fashionable; optionally at the very least.

what's cutting corners about making a shooter? it's just an artistic direction, its not lazy. if anything, just leaving everything to glorified dice rolls is lazier because it absolves a dev from having to make the combat physically satisfying.

 

[Sild]

Well that's not really true. It's an unnecessary and disjointed genreswap amidst gameplay, if you have the RPG portion and the FPS portion as separate entities. It wouldn't work the other way around either.

They are not sepparate in any way. The RPG aspect if deep enough will undoubtedly heavily influence the outcomes of the combat regardless of whether the chance to hit is dependant on the player or a simple dice roll. This is not an opinion it's very much a fact. This alone is enough to say it's RPG combat.

A turn based combat or a VATS system does not make games like God of War an RPG.. nor would that be somehow considered "true" RPG combat.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

sounds like a matter of taste. The combat wasn't AMAZING in the new Deus Ex games but it was just fine.

Sure. It is a matter of taste. My mouth tastes RPG better than shooter.

what's cutting corners about making a shooter?

It cutting corners in that it neglects and bypasses the mechanical workings that create RPG's their feel and flow.

They are not sepparate in any way.

Sure they are if they work through separate design principles.

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You what's odd to me is that you people oppose these things so vehemently that it sounds as if I wanted to take the shooter combat away from you. No. I want you to have the option to twitchshoot to your hearts content and then some, and that's already there so congrats, you've been deliverd. Have fun when the game comes out.

All I'm arguing for is that I want the option have a fun combat experience too, one that's in line with the mechanical RPG traditions (CP2020 among others). I'm not asking for turnbased anything, that's not happening, nor Infinity engine RTwP combat, that's not happening either. But I have outlined several ways of implementing a sort of cross over for an option that shouldn't compromise your shooter experience in any significant way.

 

[Suhiira]

Yeah, the are. But RPG as a whole is quite a borad topic and it necessarily veers the discussion here off the issue at hand, and as you can see it devolve the arguments to "Well RPG's have other features too so what does some FPS combat matter?" And of course it matters. That there are other RPG features does not remove the fact the combat isn't RPG related if it is not, and whilst fun can be had with those other mechanics, combat remains the cuckoos chick in the nest.

That's why I keep stressing "character skills" when discussing RPG mechanics, because when it comes to the core issues that's really the most significant one.