Combat Thread - General

[xer21]

Sure. It is a matter of taste. My mouth tastes RPG better than shooter.

neither are exclusive. a shooter can be an rpf and vice versa. you just sound like you don't like shooting period, but having shooter elements doesnt make Deus Ex any less of an RPG. It's not an either or scenario. They can be both.

It cutting corners in that it neglects and bypasses the mechanical workings that create RPG's their feel and flow.

based on what, you're extremely rigid and narrow idea of what makes an rpg an rpg? Again, they're different design choices, neither robs a game of its RPG identity nor does either make one more credibly an RPG than the other.

the feel and flow of an rpg is a subjective issue. again, you're arguing a matter of taste, but presenting it as if it's something measurable or factual. its not.

Sure they are if they work through separate design principles.

only if you refuse to allow either genre to expand outside of the boxes you've created in your own head.

You what's odd to me is that you people oppose these things so vehemently that it sounds as if I wanted to take the shooter combat away from you..

no, Im mainly questioning why you think you can't have both in the first place. I don't oppose your opinion. Im opposed to representing the opinion as if its truth. Its biased, just like mine is. but im not arguing the game should be one way or the other, only that you can go either route without compromising the integrity of the game as an RPG.

Yes, I like shooters, just as you dont. but you're arguing that certain mechanics inherently damage the identity of t he game and that's just not fair to use your own opinion as if it's something accepted as fact. .

I want you to have the option to twitchshoot to your hearts content and then some, and that's already there so congrats, you've been deliverd. Have fun when the game comes out.

All I'm arguing for is that I want the option have a fun combat experience too

Sure that would be fine if it doesnt come at the expense of the combat experience on the other side. Personally, i have doubts that you can do that, however. I really feel you need to stick with one mode or else you end up with a watered down system on both sides. See fallout. both VATS and the shooting feels pretty meh, and largely, its because they had to make sure neither system represented an obvious imbalance.

just for the record, LOTS of people ask for "just the option".

I want to take the time to express something here. None of us are entitled to options. it's not always simple to just do both and if it collides with the dev's vision or their quality standards, we dont get it, period. just saying that, as much as we all want the game to be exactly as we dream it, that's just never going to happen. all of us will have things that we take issue with in the game, that we felt could have been done better or whatever.

You can't please everyone. I'd rather they pick one mechanic, and focus on making it great then try to do a hybrid that historically hasn't turned out great.

 

[Sild]

They are not sepparate in any way. The RPG aspect if deep enough willundoubtedly heavily influence the outcomes of the combat regardless of whether the chance to hit is dependant on the player or a simple dice roll. This is not an opinion it's very much a fact. This alone is enough to say it's RPG combat.

A turn based combat or a VATS system does not make games like God of War an RPG.. nor would that be somehow considered "true" RPG combat.

Sure they are if they work through separate design principles.

Then the problem lies with what you consider a design principle.. As i have been trying to get across real time combat third person combat like in The Witcher 3 or first person gunplay or melee combat like Bloodlines even Fallout follow the basic rpg design principle.. stats, perks, gear, dialogue choices (which in turn are afected by stats or perks) heavily affect the outcome of most if not all situations including combat.

You what's odd to me is that you people oppose these things so vehemently that it sounds as if I wanted to take the shooter combat away from you. No. I want you to have the option to twitchshoot to your hearts content and then some, and that's already there so congrats, you've been deliverd. Have fun when the game comes out.

All I'm arguing for is that I want the option have a fun combat experience too, one that's in line with the mechanical RPG traditions (CP2020 among others). I'm not asking for turnbased anything, that's not happening, nor Infinity engine RTwP combat, that's not happening either. But I have outlined several ways of implementing a sort of cross over for an option that shouldn't compromise your shooter experience in any significant way.

No problem with that.. just make a separate thread for a request.
The way you go about requesting it is the problem.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

neither are exclusive. a shooter can be an rpf and vice versa. you just sound like you don't like shooting period, but having shooter elements doesnt make Deus Ex any less of an RPG. It's not an either or scenario. They can be both.

based on what, you're extremely rigid and narrow idea of what makes an rpg an rpg?

The thing is... I'm not arguing "what is an RPG" or whether or not this or that game is an RPG and how much so. I arguing about how combat should work here with Cyberpunk 2077. And part of the argument is that while the game is certainly an RPG (for the most part anyway), it does not change the fact that FPS combat is there and works like it does. That latter part of the sentence is the point of contention. FPS combat - as described by the previews - is not RPG combat. That's a fact and there's no two ways about it.

only if you refuse to allow either genre to expand outside of the boxes you've created in your own head.

They shouldn't need to expand outside their... "boxes". They should be allowed to evolve and thrive in their respective categories by naturally extending their strengths as what they are, what they do and what they try to represent.

The going outside of their "boxes" - for a more general comment - is the reason why most games are so similiar to each other these days. While it may seem that things are evolving through genremelding, what it actually does is harmful because all it does is it brings all these games closer together towards some sort fo singular ideal. It kills variety. That's not a good direction by any stretch.

no, Im mainly questioning why you think you can't have both in the first place.

Haven't I reasoned MY stance clearly enough? I don't play shooters. They're boring. If a game insists as an RPG, I wish it to sport RPG related features, not features that are barely so but features that are clearly so (even if they might not be the best they could). I don't want to have to avoid features because they feel out of place or otherwise bad choices of design.

As for entitlement...
I'm not entitled to anything but expressing my disdain for what I think is bad, and hopes for something better. If things get fixed, that's great, if not, too bad. And I do realize these things aren't easy to do, if they were they'd be done without asking. I suppose the question is is the part of the audience I represent worth catering to? We'll see eventually, but so long as there's no "NO" or "YES" answer to that question, I'm not going to give in for half measures, "good for what it is" or "that's all we're getting".

 

[Suhiira]

No problem with that.. just make a separate thread for a request.
The way you go about requesting it is the problem.

We've been discussing this issue for years.

In their desire for immersion CDPR seems to have forgotten CP2077 is suppose to be an RPG. Probably due to the decision to make it First Person perspective only. If your game is First Person only then naturally you're going to assume first person combat, the trouble is first person combat is totally contrary to the RPG roots of the game because it replaces character skill with player.

While a hybrid system can work mechanically by necessity it must forgo some elements of what makes an FPS an FPS and an RPG an RPG. And the end result is neither of those game styles. And those two styles are not compatible, in fact they are in many ways polar opposites.

 

[JMFruitSalad]

If the perspective is first person and you shoot things, then it's a first person shooter lol technically even a game like Thief is an FPS, although it describes almost nothing about the game. The problem is people have a more specific kind of stereotype in mind when they hear FPS, they imagine DOOM and COD straight away

 

[Suhiira]

If the perspective is first person and you shoot things, then it's a first person shooter lol technically even a game like Thief is an FPS, although it describes almost nothing about the game. The problem is people have a more specific kind of stereotype in mind when they hear FPS, they imagine DOOM and COD straight away

Pretty much.

If your game doesn't have character skills that are used to determine the outcome of actions performed in the game it's not an RPG, it's really as simple as that.
It may well be an excellent Immersive Sim, but it's not an RPG.

 

[Sild]

If the perspective is first person and you shoot things, then it's a first person shooter lol technically even a game like Thief is an FPS, although it describes almost nothing about the game. The problem is people have a more specific kind of stereotype in mind when they hear FPS, they imagine DOOM and COD straight away

Thief is an Immersive Sim.. A hybrid.. and a VERY good game.
With that king of logic you can just call it any and all actions you perform in first person.. you slash/shoot/steal/climb.. why limit the acronym to just the shooting.

 

[JMFruitSalad]

We've been discussing this issue for years.

In their desire for immersion CDPR seems to have forgotten CP2077 is suppose to be an RPG. Probably due to the decision to make it First Person perspective only. If your game is First Person only then naturally you're going to assume first person combat, the trouble is first person combat is totally contrary to the RPG roots of the game because it replaces character skill with player.

While a hybrid system can work mechanically by necessity it must forgo some elements of what makes an FPS an FPS and an RPG an RPG. And the end result is neither of those game styles. And those two styles are not compatible, in fact they are in many ways polar opposites.

I do agree with what you are saying. They are polar opposite, but that doesn't make them incompatible, you can still combine them in interesting ways to make a hybrid. I personally like utilising some of my own skill in combat, it's more engaging, but various aspects of combat can still be tweaked to make it easier or harder. Also, other skills are entirely dependent on the RPG mechanic, like the netrunner stuff

 

[Sild]

If your game doesn't have character skills that are used to determine the outcome of actions performed in the game it's not an RPG, it's really as simple as that.

Precisely what i've been saying..

 

[Sild]

Really i don't see what the issue is

 

[Suhiira]

I do agree with what you are saying. They are polar opposite, but that doesn't make them incompatible, you can still combine them in interesting ways to make a hybrid. I personally like utilising some of my own skill in combat, it's more engaging, but various aspects of combat can still be tweaked to make it easier or harder. Also, other skills are entirely dependent on the RPG mechanic, like the netrunner stuff

I never said they were incompatible.
I'm merely pointing out that strapping antlers to a dog doesn't make it a deer.
If CDPR wants to make CP2077 an Immersive Sim great, go for it. But don't call it something it isn't.

 

[JMFruitSalad]

The game has character skills that are PARTIALLY used to determine the outcome, along with player skills. It's an FPS/RPG hybrid. At this point we can't say what the balance is, my guess would be similar to the original Deus ex, weapon accuracy was horrible in that game before improving the character skill level

 

[Hoplite_22]

The game has character skills that are PARTIALLY used to determine the outcome, along with player skills. It's an FPS/RPG hybrid. At this point we can't say what the balance is, my guess would be similar to the original Deus ex, weapon accuracy was horrible in that game before improving the character skill level

Oh so you have played it?

 

[xer21]

Everyone in here loves to take speculation and run with it as if it's the real thing.

 

[JMFruitSalad]

Oh so you have played it?

I said "my guess"
The Devs have already confirmed it's a hybrid fps/rpg

 

[Sild]

The game has character skills that are PARTIALLY used to determine the outcome, along with player skills. It's an FPS/RPG hybrid. At this point we can't say what the balance is, my guess would be similar to the original Deus ex, weapon accuracy was horrible in that game before improving the character skill level

It sounded more like Bloodlines did it.. with floating numbers and hp bars. Not sure if there were stats that affected the acurracy in that game tho.. could be wrong.
Did melee builds almost exclusively.. something about vampires relying on guns didn't appeal to me i guess.

 

[HellKnightX88]

It sounded more like Bloodlines did it.. with floating numbers and hp bars. Not sure if there were stats that affected the acurracy in that game tho.. could be wrong.

Yes, you have the firearms skill that reduce the cone of fire on weapons.

 

[JMFruitSalad]

There has never been a game, to my knowledge, where the AI grimaces and resorts to begging for their lives when injured and disarmed, it would make players pretty uncomfortable I think, to be confronted with such human reactions from "enemies"..

 

[animalfather]

how many will reload their game if they get their limb shot off?

 

[Heart Of Dawn]

That's why I think they won't do it. reloading pulls you out of the game and breaks immersion, so it should be avoided where possible.