Combat Thread - General

[kofeiiniturpa]

It makes smart guns as a weapon class irrelevant.

No. They would be used for accuracy boost all the way up to beyond the reach of other weapon classes.

I'm open for discussing ideas. Each and every one of them obviously requires work. Your intent is to mostly shoot everything down. And I still don't get the reason. You have already been served as far as combat goes. You should be a happy camper.

And what games had toggle iron sights?

GTA V had a toggle for it. And Fallout New Vegas had a toggle between iron sights being for actual aim or just for visuals.

Half Life 2 had aim assist toggle.

 

[xer21]

I'm not sure you understand the difference between aim assist and homing bullets.

Check the context that was a response to a direct reference to aim assist explicitly.


Im aware of the difference. The guy i replied to mentioned aim assist separately from the smart guns.

 

[xer21]

No. They would be used for accuracy boost all the way up to beyond the reach of other weapon classes.

I'm open for discussing ideas. Each and every one of them obviously requires work. Your intent is to mostly shoot everything down. And I still don't get the reason. You have already been served as far as combat goes. You should be a happy camper.



GTA V had a toggle for it. And Fallout New Vegas had a toggle between iron sights being for actual aim or just for visuals.

Half Life 2 had aim assist toggle.

Half life 2 was locked to controllers unless they patched it later and gta v was operating on a game that used to have lock on targeting as the defsult anyways because it was a third person game.


Ill grant you new vegas but i mean not exactly a common thing

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Half life 2 was locked to controllers unless they patched it later and gta v was operating on a game that used to have lock on targeting as the defsult anyways because it was a third person game.

I don't know about controllers and I don't care, but when I played it it had a toggle for aim assist on/off. And same for GTA V, I don't care what it used to have (well, ok, that kind of target lock could be modified to use here too), but the game let's you choose between iron sights and "traditional" aim.

i mean not exactly a common thing

Does it need to be? And if so, why?

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You know, I'd be absolutely fine if the smart guns alone had the character based mechanisms and were available from the get go. But I don't think that's the case. Hence, I'd like an option to play the game - during combat - not by the mechanical principles of a shooter, but those of an RPG. There's plenty of ways to achieve that, if there's the will to implement it. It doesn't necessarily need to mean stat driven aim bot, it can well be something else too. But the crux is to have character stats make or break the succesful combat flow.

 

[atomowyturysta]

So I'm hoping that CDPR will go above and beyond creating unique weapons befitting a cyberpunk setting. What unique guns would you like to see implemented?
I just finished watching Altered Carbon last night, and thought the pistol that magnetically retrieves its bullet (or the Phillips Squeeze Gun if you're a fan of the book) would be amazing in the game. Of course a Dredd's Lawgiver or something similar would be an outstanding addition also.

Yeah... That was cool... But for a serious show, AC is supposed to be, the devs (and the writer before them) should check what happens to the bullet after firing. That would be the most useless feature in the history of firearms. You can't retrieve a round. It gets destroyed on impact. Even if you fire at something soft.
But for "not thet serious" cyberpunk setting. Could be fun.

I personally prefer more conventional guns. The CP2077 guns will prbably work on thermo-electric premise, rather than gunpowder. Some military grade heavy weapons (as the rifle used by V) will probably be railguns.
There's talk about Fifth Elemnt guns that use self guiding bullets. I don't particulary like that, but those are in development as we speak, so why not.

The Trauma Team SMG seems odd.

It has massive mag, that looks as if it holds full sized rifle rounds or shotgun shells. But wher doeas it feed into???
There's ejection system just over it but it is just behind the compensator. And the barrel continues towards the trigger system and just...ends. And the hand guard has some Kriss like vibe, but, although I thought that initially, it does not hold a clip as Kriss' does. That is one cool, WTF gun I bet it is a SMG sized CQB shotgun but that design is somewhat lacking.

Pistols TT are using seem very common. X9, Arasaka WSA, Avenger?

Female V pistol looks very much as Colt AMT from the sourcebook.

Hate the shotgun design with some shiny wtfuckish glowing cylinders.

V's rifle. Seems to be a railgun. Be it a AR or shotgun. Seems to be popular among security so maybe it's some kind of non lethal system.

Cowboy guy's revolver must be Super Chieff. It must!

And I hope there's no missile launchers. Maybe some situational, quest weapons, or under barrel GL. But no hand held ML. I hate them. When my playes get an idea to get one, I kill their characters

 

[Snowflakez]

Your intent is to mostly shoot everything down. And I still don't get the reason.

And this is the crux of the issue. He is so fervently against any form of RPG-based combat just because it's "not common" or "this is the way RPGs are now, get over it," which I don't understand either.

We're asking for an optional way to play the game that would not impact you at all, @xer21.

We are all happy to discuss this with you, but if you're going to simply say "no" to every idea for the strange reasons cited above, then there's not really any point on talking about it at all.

If you're not against the idea (as you've admitted before), help us come up with a solution, we can point out the pros and cons of each, and find something that is doable and effective. If neither said is against something, a discussion takes place. If one side is, an argument takes place (which is not necessarily a bad thing by any means), as there's a voice for and a voice against a given topic.

 

[nytstalk]

I went through the trailer frame by frame and found quite a few neat looking lead pushers:

First we have what I'm predicting to be the most OP gun in the game, the Toy VR Gun!

A simple looking pistol which belongs to who I assume is Jackie:

The Holstered Revolver owned by the Cowboy in the bar:

Some of the pistols from the trailer:

Double Barrel Shotgun held by the Hillbilly:

The Militech Rifle:

I don't know what kind of gun this is, but it seems to be a shotgun based on the punch it packed:

The Stash in the Cab:

A Trauma team gun which I assume is some kind of SMG:

An AK-47/MP5 looking rifle held by Lizzy Wizzy's body guards:

No idea what kind of gun this is, but held by the guy watching those people play basketball:

Finally the massive Militech machine gun:

The same Machine gun seems to used as a mounted turret as well:

What I'm hoping for though is that the weapons actually feel like they pack a punch, too many guns in FPS games nowadays feel so weak.

Damn man, you're good!

 

[craylest]

Well I'm open to any gun CDPR throws at me

 

[xer21]

Im not against anything. I just want them to pick one or the other. Adding options will just make both watered down. Either go full twitch with minor rpg or go full rpg with minor twitch stuff. Making it an option is just going to be clunky in both sides like fallout.

 

[Snowflakez]

Im not against anything. I just want them to pick one or the other. Adding options will just make both watered down. Either go full twitch with minor rpg or go full rpg with minor twitch stuff. Making it an option is just going to be clunky in both sides like fallout.

Sounds like they already have the FPS combat down, so how do you figure that? :unsure:

 

[gogmeister777]

Yes they're no longer common, hell they never were (most folks played Asteroids and Pong), but by no means dead. CDPR and Witcher 3 are proof you're wrong.

YOU want direct control, go play the sorts of games you prefer but don't expect every game made to cater to your tastes.

Hold on a second, didn't you say that The Witcher 3 'pretty much' WASN'T a true RPG by your standards? Because you had to control fighting and therefore player skill mattered in some small way? And yet now it is a RPG and proof that CDPR can do RPGs? I'm not trying to pick on you here but in that case what's the problem?

Besides, you said you enjoyed W3 so what makes you think you won't enjoy CP2077's, presumable, combination of stat influenced, RPG gunplay?

 

[Snowflakez]

Hold on a second, didn't you say that The Witcher 3 'pretty much' WASN'T a true RPG by your standards? Because you had to control fighting and therefore player skill mattered in some small way? And yet now it is a RPG and proof that CDPR can do RPGs? I'm not trying to pick on you here but in that case what's the problem?

Besides, you said you enjoyed W3 so what makes you think you won't enjoy CP2077's, presumable, combination of stat influenced, RPG gunplay?

What stat-influenced RPG gunplay?

 

[gogmeister777]

What stat-influenced RPG gunplay?

Well, I did say 'presumable'.

I think, based the Witcher 3 trilogy, interviews of designers and general info we know about CDPR and their game philosophies it's safe to assume that they will want attributes, skills and mods to make a difference in combat success. At least, I'm confident they will and I imagine most people would think it's far more likely than not.

I mean, who here really thinks that your actual character and the way you choose to develop him/her isn't going to have a big impact on how combat effectiveness plays out?

 

[Snowflakez]

Well, I did say 'presumable'.

I think, based the Witcher 3 trilogy, interviews of designers and general info we know about CDPR and their game philosophies it's safe to assume that they will want attributes, skills and mods to make a difference in combat success. At least, I'm confident they will and I imagine most people would think it's far more likely than not.

I mean, who here really thinks that your actual character and the way you choose to develop him/her isn't going to have a big impact on how combat effectiveness plays out?

The game sounds like it will have FPS combat, by all accounts, so I'm not sure what purpose stats would play there. Maybe melee combat.

Unless you'd advocate for magically-increasing gun damage based on stats...

 

[gogmeister777]

The game sounds like an FPS, by all accounts, so I'm not sure what purpose stats would play in gunplay. Maybe melee combat.

Thanks for your reply.

Wow, 'by all accounts', eh? I must have missed something from all the behind the scenes previews I read after E3. Mind you, 'sounds like' doesn't really matter if you don't mind my saying so. 'Sounds like' doesn't mean it definitely is, let us be upeat. Seeing actual gameplay will be the really informative thing.

Or it could just be that we're getting caught in some kind of horribly subjective loop about people using terms to describe games differently. Was Vampire Bloodlines (thought of by many as a fantastic diamond in the rough RPG) an FPS? Or a RPG done in FPP? In the end, does the exact label even matter? A great game is a great game whatever the label.

I also, and I don't mean this in a dismissive or aggressive way, am absolutely stunned you don't think skills, stats or cybernetics can influence gunplay effectiveness. System Shock 1&2, Deus Ex (particularly the original but also the two recent ones) and V: Bloodlines had exactly that. Maybe even Elex, though I haven't played that yet. Didn't stats help your gunplay in Risen too? It doesn't really matter, those first few examples are all you need my friend. Have faith

 

[Suhiira]

Im not against anything. I just want them to pick one or the other. Adding options will just make both watered down. Either go full twitch with minor rpg or go full rpg with minor twitch stuff. Making it an option is just going to be clunky in both sides like fallout.

So you believe it's impossible for CDPR, or any developer for that matter, to incorporate two, distinct, separate sets of mechanics in a single game?

 

[Snowflakez]

Thanks for your reply.

Wow, 'by all accounts', eh? I must have missed something from all the behind the scenes previews I read after E3. Mind you, 'sounds like' doesn't really matter if you don't mind my saying so. 'Sounds like' doesn't mean it definitely is, let us be upeat. Seeing actual gameplay will be the really informative thing.

Or it could just be that we're getting caught in some kind of horribly subjective loop about people using terms to describe games differently. Was Vampire Bloodlines (thought of by many as a fantastic diamond in the rough RPG) an FPS? Or a RPG done in FPP? In the end, does the exact label even matter? A great game is a great game whatever the label.

I also, and I don't mean this in a dismissive or aggressive way, am absolutely stunned you don't think skills, stats or cybernetics can influence gunplay effectiveness. System Shock 1&2, Deus Ex (particularly the original but also the two recent ones) and V: Bloodlines had exactly that. Maybe even Elex, though I haven't played that yet. Didn't stats help your gunplay in Risen too? It doesn't really matter, those first few examples are all you need my friend. Have faith

Lots of assumptions here. That bit at the beginning in particular made me lol. What was the purpose of drawing attention to saying "sounds like"? It's a figure of speech. Virtually every single preview has said the combat is fast-paced FPS action, so yes, it SOUNDS LIKE the combat will be FPS.

It's a subjective term and I never said otherwise.

I didn't say that skills, stats, or cybernetics can't influence gunplay effectiveness.

I also edited the post to reflect that I meant "FPS combat" and not FPS as a whole.

Yes, the original Deus Ex games had RPG combat, because your effectiveness with various weapons was determined by a skill/stat. Great games, those were.

The new Deus Ex games have a cybernetic implant specifically designed to reduce recoil, improve stabilization, etc. You could argue that this is RPG combat to a degree (not quite to the degree some of us would hope, but whatever), because it's a character upgrade that is resulting in better combat effectiveness. I don't think I'd argue with such an assertion.

I SPECIFICALLY said I didn't see what purpose stats would play in FPS combat. Stats (or attributes, since that's what you initially said). Not perks, abilities or cybernetics.

The only stat I can think of that would be applicable in FPS combat in Cyberpunk 2077 would be reflexes, perhaps that could increase gun stabilization, but we have no reason to think that's the case. If it was, I'd be ecstatic, but I don't even think that's how it worked in the PnP.

 

[gogmeister777]

Unless you'd advocate for magically-increasing gun damage based on stats...

To be fair, stats 'magically' increasing damage has been a mainstay of RPG design since forever. How else do you make a character more effective when you can't/don't want to rely on player skill because you're making an RPG?

You increase a characters agility? He does more arrow/bullet damage. From a RP point of view it's because more bullets hit or, in the case of a single shot weapon, maybe a sniper rifle/arrow hits a more vital area.

Besides, what stats are you referring too? Physical and mental? Skill? Cybernetics? Weapon mods? They can all be included and often are.

DX had implants that steadied your aim. Skills meant your shots hit more accurately, doing more damage depending on bodypart hit. From a players perspective, it looked like your character had dead-eye aim. You were still aiming yourself (fairly leisurely though, not what most would describe as twitch or FPS) but in the background, all that was happening was that the rng (RPG) number crunching was going heavily in your favour thanks to your stats. Thanks to the RPG elements of combat. In contrast, at the beginning of the game, you could walk right up to someone, point a pistol at their head (with the crosshair swaying all over the place) and still miss. Stats really mattered, in a good way.

I would have hoped this would actually make you more optimistic.

 

[Suhiira]

I mean, who here really thinks that your actual character and the way you choose to develop him/her isn't going to have a big impact on how combat effectiveness plays out?

If you mean choosing perk A (you may now dual wield handguns) over perk B (you may now reload 25% faster) is an example of how your character development choices impact combat effectiveness I'm afraid you fail to grok (look it up ) the basic concepts of character driven games.

So far every indication is the combat in CP2077 is strictly FPS (probably with perks) vice RPG.
Many of us see a serious disconnect in having FPS, and only FPS combat in what's suppose to be first and foremost an RPG.

 

[gogmeister777]

Lots of assumptions here. That bit at the beginning in particular made me lol. What was the purpose of drawing attention to saying "sounds like"? It's a figure of speech. Virtually every single preview has said the combat is fast-paced FPS action, so yes, it SOUNDS LIKE the combat will be FPS.

It's a subjective term and I never said otherwise.

So, I actually didn't say that skills, stats, or cybernetics can't influence gunplay effectiveness.

I also edited the post to reflect that I meant "FPS combat" and not FPS as a whole.

Yes, the original Deus Ex games had RPG combat, because your effectiveness with various weapons was determined by a skill/stat. Great games, those were.

The new Deus Ex games have a cybernetic implant specifically designed to reduce recoil, improve stabilization, etc. You could argue that this is RPG combat to a degree (not quite to the degree some of us would hope, but whatever), because it's a character upgrade that is resulting in better combat effectiveness. I don't think I'd argue with such an assertion.

I SPECIFICALLY said I didn't see what purpose stats would play in FPS combat. Stats. Not perks, abilities or cybernetics.

The only stat I can think of that would be applicable in FPS combat in Cyberpunk 2077 would be reflexes, perhaps that could increase gun stabilization, but we have no reason to think that's the case. If it was, I'd be ecstatic, but I don't even think that's how it worked in the PnP.

Well, if we agree it's subjective (I got a completely different feeling from the articles I read, probably why I'm more excited) then, as we all have mentioned, we'll just have to wait and see.

So you're saying they can effect effectiveness? Sounds in keeping with RPGs to me. You're not liking it though? Why? It all helps to make your character be the main one who decides victory, rather than user skill.

Deus Ex 2000 was a great game? So RPG gunplay is possible, brilliant! So what are we discussing here? Without having seen gameplay, I mean? It almost sounds like you're expecting Vanquish!

I agree with you about the recent DX games.

I mentioned stats in other post.

All the best.