Combat Thread - General

[Suhiira]

I think it seems pretty likely that the game will not be a true RPG by your definition, but we still don't know if stats impact weapons, and to what degree they do if so.

And that's the problem.
No matter how many excellent CDPR quests exist, no matter how deep, layered, subtle, and branching the dialog, no matter if your actions have consequence or not at it's core the game is not an RPG. Because a central game mechanic (combat) isn't built around your character but the player.

 

[MadqueenShow]

Ok, I have some things to add here.

Of course she's not unbiased, she's an RPG fan.
Of course, she's not "well schooled in FPS", she can't play most of them, and they're not her game of choice.

If you take a look at my channel and the 3 years worth of content that I put before starting with Cyberpunk 2077 like crazy, you'll see that actually, my games of choice are PFS. You can take a look there and you'll see content on DOOM (which I love), Wolfenstein, Prey and others (and, of course, an isane amount of Fallout 4 gameplay), and I always stated that my favorite game ever is Bioshock 1. I'm really shocked how people are reaching this conclusion without bothering taking a look at my content which is public and can be easily accessed. Not to mention my streams on YouTube and Twitch, and the type of games I play there.

With this said, as I explained in a video today, my main problem with the perspective of Cyberpunk 2077 is not that is in First Person which, with proper preparation from my part I can play, but that the game is expected to be long and I won't be able to play it comfortably (as I already had a bad experience due to finishing Bioshock 1 out of stubborness even getting really sick), which totally sucks for me, as I expected to play in batches of 10 hours and, now, that would be impossible for me, and most probably I won't be able to finish the game, as is expected to be really long.

Madqueen thought that the combat looks generic in First Person.

I found the combat to be generic. Period. Not a problem with perspective, I have a problem mainly with animations and predictable NPC movement. I will make a detailed video explaining why but, unfortunately, while I was in LA it was impossible for me to do videos properly.

But we have no reason to think it's generic. Just because it's an FPS, does not mean it's inherently the same as all other FPS (no more than an RPG is the same as every other RPG). That's kinda the point I was making. I think MQ let her frustrations affect her ability to objectively look at the many differences (and, from what I can tell, benefits) of 2077's FPS combat over Doom/Bioshock/etc.

Again, I'm afraid you're wrong here, but as I said before, I will explain the reasons why in a detailed video. It's not about the point of view, is mostly the animations and very static and predictable NPC behavior. If the combat system when shooting on Deux Ex (and I say Deus Ex because everybody said that combat was Deus Ex-esque) blew your mind, then you'll disagree with me, but if you expect more than Deus Ex in Cyberpunk 2077 I'm sure that you'll understand what I mean as soon as I can explain it in detail.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

It’d be decent to have something of a clarification about the intents of design and experience in this regard, since CDPR’s been pressing the issue themselves and almost sounding apologetic about it while everyone else sees the opposite.

 

[Snowflakez]

Ok, I have some things to add here.
Again, I'm afraid you're wrong here, but as I said before, I will explain the reasons why in a detailed video. It's not about the point of view, is mostly the animations and very static and predictable NPC behavior. If the combat system when shooting on Deux Ex (and I say Deus Ex because everybody said that combat was Deus Ex-esque) blew your mind, then you'll disagree with me, but if you expect more than Deus Ex in Cyberpunk 2077 I'm sure that you'll understand what I mean as soon as I can explain it in detail.

I'll give you the chance to do so, then. I just found it strange because so many other journalists described the combat completely differently than you, even a few journalists who know the lore and are actually interested in video games.

It’d be decent to have something of a clarification about the intents of design and experience in this regard, since CDPR’s been pressing the issue themselves and almost sounding apologetic about it while everyone else sees the opposite.

I'm 100% with you here. I'm worried that people will be misled by constant statements of "TRUE RPG" and expect something different than they get.

 

[Suhiira]

It’d be decent to have something of a clarification about the intents of design and experience in this regard, since CDPR’s been pressing the issue themselves and almost sounding apologetic about it while everyone else sees the opposite.

I suspect CDPR is currently absorbing feedback and considering certain not yet set in stone gameplay decisions, or perhaps if they should implement alternate gameplay methods.

 

[Snowflakez]

I suspect CDPR is currently absorbing feedback and considering certain not yet set in stone gameplay decisions, or perhaps if they should implement alternate gameplay methods.

I very much hope so, not just for your sake, but everyone's. How cool would it be for someone like me, who enjoys both combat systems (prefer RPGs, though), to play through the game in two different styles?

Hopefully it's early enough in development that some sort of alternate combat method can be implemented.

 

[Suhiira]

Hopefully it's early enough in development that some sort of alternate combat method can be implemented.

We can but hope.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I suspect CDPR is currently absorbing feedback and considering certain not yet set in stone gameplay decisions, or perhaps if they should implement alternate gameplay methods.

Hopefully.

I'll still keep pushing that the impact of stats on accuracy and other stuff could be adjustable through game settings. The game could sport an optional target lock (that intertwines with stats for to-hit chances) and a tactical pause. This'd - I presume - not require redesigning what's already there, and could be relatively easy to implement. Also, slower combat pacing (maybe even the speed of the whole game could be slightly adjustable).

There are a lot of ways to go about this.

 

[Sardukhar]

If the combat system when shooting on Deux Ex (and I say Deus Ex because everybody said that combat was Deus Ex-esque) blew your mind, then you'll disagree with me, but if you expect more than Deus Ex in Cyberpunk 2077 I'm sure that you'll understand what I mean as soon as I can explain it in detail.

I'm...okay with Deus Ex. I mean, I play it fairly often (shocker) and the AI is adequate. Flanks, grenades, advances. Maybe not as good as I'd -hope- in 2018, but on Give Me Deus Ex I had no issues with lethality or danger and in fact, would consider it perfectly adequate for Cyberpunk.

If you're talking cool powers or moves by the NPCs, I dunno - not a fan of super powahs or boss fight mechanics or special weapon tricks. All seem too video-gamey in my Cyberpunk video game.

Cyberpunk 2020 is simple, lethal and fun.

So yeah, Deus Ex. Sounds great!

 

[Sneky]

I will make a detailed video explaining why but, unfortunately, while I was in LA it was impossible for me to do videos properly.

What's the problem with making video properly in hotel when you are fresh from presentation? I watched shorter videos literally from crowded E3 and they were much more in depth and detailed than yours.

I suspect CDPR is currently absorbing feedback and considering certain not yet set in stone gameplay decisions, or perhaps if they should implement alternate gameplay methods.

You will have alternate gameplay methods to solve encounters according to Patrick Mills

Schreier:

What’s the difference between Solo, Techie, and Netrunner?

Mills: These are all character-types from the original Cyberpunk 2020[pen-and-paper RPG]. And the Solo is sort of the go in, shoot, get the job done, go straight on in. Even there though, we have different types inside that. You saw in the demo, V runs around and wall runs and things like that. That’s one archetype you could take, but Jackie on the other hand is a different type of Solo, lifts cars to create cover and that sort of thing.

Schreier: [Jackie] is the companion character you had, I should say.

Mills: Yeah, of course. And then the Technie is more interested in technology, and hacking, and breaking things and fixing things. The Netrunner is, you saw just a little glimpse of that in the demo where she hacks one of the gangsters.

Schreier: So basically, she takes the shard, which is this little chip, out of the gangster, sneaks up behind him, takes it, and then hacks into it and uses it to disable guns for everyone else in the complex.

Mills: Yes. So that’s sort of our third archetype, is the Netrunner.

Schreier: Cool. And it seems like you’re not picking one of these. You just go through and…

Mills: No. You fluidly move between them. In the original [pen-and-paper game] you’d pick a class, and you could pick skills from other classes, but you were that class and you had special abilities unique to that class. We don’t want to do that. We want you to be able to move freely between those.

Add to that possibility of skipping some combat encounters because of your dialogue choices. And sneaking, which many previews said they were present.. MadQueen didnt see them at all :unsure:

 

[Garrison72]

I'm...okay with Deus Ex. I mean, I play it fairly often (shocker) and the AI is adequate. Flanks, grenades, advances. Maybe not as good as I'd -hope- in 2018, but on Give Me Deus Ex I had no issues with lethality or danger and in fact, would consider it perfectly adequate for Cyberpunk.

If you're talking cool powers or moves by the NPCs, I dunno - not a fan of super powahs or boss fight mechanics or special weapon tricks. All seem too video-gamey in my Cyberpunk video game.

Cyberpunk 2020 is simple, lethal and fun.

So yeah, Deus Ex. Sounds great!

Ehh..Count me as someone who wants to see snapier, punchier combat than Human Revolution. It was solid in that game, no question. But to me the weapon variety and gunplay don't hold a candle to Doom or Shadow Warrior. And maybe they can implement a tactical pause and play system for people who dislike twitch combat.

 

[Snowflakez]

What's the problem with making video properly in hotel when you are fresh from presentation? I watched shorter videos literally from crowded E3 and they were much more in depth and detailed than yours.

Add to that possibility of skipping some combat encounters because of your dialogue choices. And sneaking, which many previews said they were present.. MadQueen didnt see them at all :unsure:

MQ didn't see sneaking because she actively shouted "COMBAT!" during the presentation. The demo player was going to sneak, but because of that, he decided to go a "guns blazing" approach.

I'll admit I was a little irritated when she said that, since I hadn't heard much about the stealth in other previews and I was hoping the latest wave of demo viewers would be able to give some info...

Still like her and all.

 

[Suhiira]

Anyway, to your other point, I think you are confusing perks and skills again. A CDPR employee themselves differentiated the three (attributes, perks, skills), I think it may have been Vattier, just yesterday or earlier today. So it's not just journalists being dummies and for some reason using three words to refer to two.

Perks = stat bonuses, "you can now do a whirlwind," etc. (this probably includes wallrunning and stuff).
Skills = Engineering, persuasion, hacking... at least hacking and engineering are confirmed to be in-game. I'm not sure if any others were shown in the demo. These may not necessarily unlock entirely new abilities, but they'll give you a better chance, if not a 100% chance, at doing certain things in the game. Fiddling with wall panels and such.
Attributes = we know what these are already.

Dunno. Just makes sense to me.

Well ...

Yong I think knows the difference between a skill and a perk ... and he never once mentions skills.

 

[Snowflakez]

Well ...

Yong I think knows the difference between a skill and a perk ... and he never once mentions skills.

Yes he does?

You can read the transcript, too. It's at "70:01". Transcript is slightly off, but here's the direct quote from the video:

"There are multiple different progression systems, so there's skills, perks..." (and we already know attributes are in)

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Yong I think knows the difference between a skill and a perk ... and he never once mentions skills.

His way of explaining combat and smart guns makes it sound even worse than it already sounded. Interesting details about other stuff, but... the same old song...

 

[Sardukhar]

Ehh..Count me as someone who wants to see snapier, punchier combat than Human Revolution. It was solid in that game, no question. But to me the weapon variety and gunplay don't hold a candle to Doom or Shadow Warrior. And maybe they can implement a tactical pause and play system for people who dislike twitch combat.

Well, i wouldn't mind a snappier punchier system, but I for sure don't want the multi-weapon, multi-solution silliness of Doom or Shadow Warrior. Waaaay too gamey. PIck a good weapon or two you like and get good with them - swap in for certain (sniping, CQB) tasks for certain jobs. But please no fast-swap FPS-stype weapons-as-puzzle solvers. Ugh. That's not life and death, that's basically tag.

I would like to see a non-twitch solution as well.

 

[ravenkiller65]

That's because there's no gameplay yet shown to the public. As soon as they will show what's class system/perks/attributes are capable of, people will be blown away.
this is an absurd outcry IMO

Why is it absurd ? if you like fps , sure you think that , I for one , despise fps and will never play them. It's a choice I made cause I hate hands in front of me , I could care less how immersive they think it is , it is not. I play games to escape in a character , hence I role play , you can't do this on a fps , sorry Cdpr you made a fps.

 

[Loki1976]

No disrespect but people see game where you can use guns as FPS no matter how you spin it. Even if you can play this through 100% without ever using guns people will still use the term FPS. You choose it, you now have to live with it

Yeah, the ignorance of those people that do not know the difference between FPS and FPP....

I didn't know Oblivion and Skyrim were First Person SHOOTERS.... (they are FPP)l. Do you consider them as "shooters and FPS"? I know they had TPP as well. But they were mainly FPP.

CDPR shouldn't be punished for people's ignorance in the difference.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Oblivion and Skyrim was FPP as well. Do you consider them as "shooters and FPS"?

They’re obviously not ”shooters”, but they can well be considered FPS’ if you consider the ”S” to stand for ”stabber” or ”slasher” rather than ”shooter”. Combat is one of the biggest features in those games.

 

[Loki1976]

They’re obviously not ”shooters”, but they can well be considered FPS’ if you consider the ”S” to stand for ”stabber” or ”slasher” rather than ”shooter”. Combat is one of the biggest features in those games.

Oh come on. Now you're really stretching it... lol..

FPS = First Person Shooter... it has never been anything else.

The problem is that people see a gun and a First Person PERSPECTIVE and think it's a shooter. It isn't.