Communication between the Witcher community and CDPR

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Beautiful prose about the sacrosanct values of civility, fairness and, above all, free speech on a video game forum.

Maybe I can share my view as a developer working at CD Projekt on this whole issue. I, as a developer, am not in fact paid to read and write on these forums, but to write and implement quests. We developers do it because we love our job and The Witcher, because we value the feedback of the community and because we like to interact with the fans. We do this in our free time, when we are not working on creating the game.
People making accusations, writing PMs about other people and wildly interpreting the simplest of statements are what make me personally not write that much on the forums any more, because I am simply very cautios about what I write and where I write it, since of course this is usually seen as the opinion of the whole company, even if this is not the case.
Now if I go to our forums and the usual discussion I can see are long and elaborate posts that boil down to that someone has an issue with our moderators, because they enforce the rules of a forum and do a great job at it, this reduces my inclination to browse through the available threads, because I personally simply would like to discuss various things about the witcher franchise here and have fun while I am at it.
My personal wish as a person who was writing on these forums before joining CDPR would simply be that we all just be nice people, share our feedback, discuss about The Witcher and keep our personal politics to places where they belong. I am happy, as a developer of the game, to contribute to other threads again, where I think my opinion and my feedback are valuable and where constructive criticism can be discussed. Until then, I'll keep browsing the forum regularely and hope that I can actively interact with the community a bit more again. :)
 
The last few posts have made me feel guilty ! ;)

Agent Bleu is clearly correct, and my gratitude to him for making it so clear, that was one hell of a smooth ride of a read... but worth it for the superb idea...

Pay these Mods !
 
[...] because I personally simply would like to discuss various things about the witcher franchise here and have fun while I am at it.

My personal wish as a person who was writing on these forums [...] would simply be that we all just be nice people, share our feedback, discuss about The Witcher and keep our personal politics to places where they belong.

I would love to do that again, but because few couldn't behave my thread got locked now for almost a month without any tendency to change that again. I was waiting for more than 2 years for that and now I can't anymore, because few (other users, not mods) spoiled the fun of everyone else.

Now if I go to our forums and the usual discussion I can see are long and elaborate posts that boil down to that someone has an issue with our moderators, because they enforce the rules of a forum and do a great job at it, this reduces my inclination to browse through the available threads, [...]

Not doubting that, but right now I and many others get punished for the doings of other users.

I didn't come to this forum to look at screenshots, artworks and so on, I want to talk and discuss about it.
 
"a stricter adherence to business-like etiquette in both public and private exchanges between moderators and regular members. "

I would love to see this happen, but, alas, there are always forum members who think it's OK to send abusive PMs to moderators, whether it be death threats, scat images, or long and highly-literate poison pen letters. I assume though that companies who run such forums have their own ways of dealing with it. (And probably stricter than now, as employment laws would tend to come into play)

As far as free speech is concerned, I agree with Rawls. This is a private forum, and the forum rules, central to which is a requirement for civility, do and should count for more than some perceived (and usually misunderstood) right to free speech. I think that most people learn fairly early in life that "freedom of speech" is not "freedom from the consequences of what you say", and that applies as much in a forum as elsewhere.

I'm a little puzzled regarding "That would surely put an end to the recent phenomena of no reply to private messages.", as I'm missing the cause and effect here. The discussion so far in the thread is about PMs to CDPR, which is not going to be addressed by any change in the moderation method. As moderators, our guidelines on PMs are clear - if the subject is a grievance about a specific action against the person who sent the PM then we may CHOOSE to reply (for example, if we think that further information would clarify it), but other than that, they are directed to speak to CDPR. For any other matters, then it's up to us as individuals. Obviously, when a member is asking for help with something regarding the game, we try to help where we can. The rest? Well, I can only speak for myself - I usually reply to anything that's not abusive, venomous or aggressive.

However, as far as "improving communication with CDPR" is concerned, then remember that moderators, whether volunteer or professional, aren't CDPR staff and therefore can't answer on behalf of CDPR. So it's unlikely to make a huge difference, and is therefore moving well beyond the topic of this thread.
 
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Thanks to everyone that shared their views.

Clearly, this thread is going to test my powers of self-restraint – successfully, I might add, to pre-emptively reassure a few fellow forum members. And I do pay everyone the compliment of assuming that, after reading my post, no one really believed I was advocating the completely unrestrained ability to speak one’s mind. It is clearly beyond the scope of this thread to discuss what exactly free speech means in the context of a privately owned and privately regulated forum but it should be clear to positively anyone old enough to register that it does not mean unrestrained access to a soapbox in this Speakers’ Corner, for the very straightforward reason that that’s not what free speech means in the outside world either, of which this forum is a much more constrained mirror image. So, in all honesty, I wouldn’t know why this point keeps being brought up.

Frankly, I wouldn’t know what “long and highly-literate poison pen letters” are either, nor in what tangible way they impact said communication, for I’ve never been at the receiving end of one, but, giving it my best shot, my personal closest approximation would be this vivid image that I have in my own mind of a colourful, small and chubby four-legged mammal. But attempting to return the discussion back on topic, it must be reiterated that anything forum members say to CD Projekt RED has to get through and past moderators and therefore – by definition – their job impacts communication at the most basic level.

What I have observed is that the interests of this small circle of fellow forum members, whose work is rightly appreciated, this sieve, often contradict and supersede the interests of the forum as a whole. I’m afraid that’s the direct foreseeable but easily preventable result of having a small group of volunteer moderators hold office at the same time that they actively take part in the discussions. While I'm definitely not going to go into specifics, I would generically say that I’ve firsthand witnessed actions that could reasonably be described as attempts to leverage one’s personal views through spurious legalistic means, attempts to gain an advantage in an argument that one’s point does not warrant in its own right, and finally attempts to secure peace of mind – a perfectably understandable and human craving from burntout moderators – at the expense and sacrifice of the rights of large crowds of fellow members in perfectly good standing.

I think the view that these three aspects do not significantly impact the communication between the Witcher community and CD Projekt RED is simply untenable. Moreover, though, the suggestion to move to a professional, strictly impartial, moderation has not been opposed, not even by the moderator who has been kind enough to comment, something which I appreciate and dare to interpret as tacit acquiescence.

Even if I do say so myself, the solution to move to professional moderators who do not take part in the discussions emerges from this debate as a foolproof necessary refinement, one that even though not a panacea would indeed likely remove what I view as pebbles in the road connecting the WItcher community to CD Projekt RED.

As always, thanks for your time.

Best,

Agent Bleu
 
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@Agent Bleu - I believe we've already made it clear that this thread is not to be used for you, or anyone else, to air your grievances with individual moderators, and continuing to do so is inappropriate and disrespectful to those who are here to discuss the topic.
 
Moreover, though, the suggestion to move to a professional, strictly impartial, moderation has not been opposed, not even by the moderator who has been kind enough to comment, something which I appreciate and dare to take to mean tacit acquiescence.

You are misreading this situation. Theres a conscious attempt by the contributors to this thread to adhere to the notion that everyones suggestion can be put forward without being picked apart by us, for the REDs consideration.

Since you've forced me to comment now, let me state... I do not recognise the issues you describe. And although my last post was a jokey rhyme rummaging through your words for the only bit of worth, IMHO... I wasn't kidding about the quality of the writing, great stuff !
 
Maybe I can share my view as a developer working at CD Projekt on this whole issue. I, as a developer, am not in fact paid to read and write on these forums, but to write and implement quests. We developers do it because we love our job and The Witcher, because we value the feedback of the community and because we like to interact with the fans. We do this in our free time, when we are not working on creating the game.
People making accusations, writing PMs about other people and wildly interpreting the simplest of statements are what make me personally not write that much on the forums any more, because I am simply very cautios about what I write and where I write it, since of course this is usually seen as the opinion of the whole company, even if this is not the case.
Now if I go to our forums and the usual discussion I can see are long and elaborate posts that boil down to that someone has an issue with our moderators, because they enforce the rules of a forum and do a great job at it, this reduces my inclination to browse through the available threads, because I personally simply would like to discuss various things about the witcher franchise here and have fun while I am at it.
My personal wish as a person who was writing on these forums before joining CDPR would simply be that we all just be nice people, share our feedback, discuss about The Witcher and keep our personal politics to places where they belong. I am happy, as a developer of the game, to contribute to other threads again, where I think my opinion and my feedback are valuable and where constructive criticism can be discussed. Until then, I'll keep browsing the forum regularely and hope that I can actively interact with the community a bit more again. :)

This was my point way back when in this thread . The whole point of this conversation was what needs to be done to get more communication from the developers . Now going off on a side trip towards moderators is not going to solve it or tangents of free speech either .
A well placed candle is a great metaphor that in it's purest form is what needs to happen . Mods have been laying ground work the last couple of weeks striking at venomous post . The whole key is everyone needs to work on being respectful no more no less .

The other part of problem is setting up plans for the higher traffic periods it is coming as well as Christmas .
 
I also believe the overall situation does not represent free speech in it's pure form. This forum is closer to the controlled world from the movie Demolition man.

I don't know what can be done to fix the system, but refusing to acknowledge and talk about it certainly lowered our chances to ever find out.
 
I also believe the overall situation does not represent free speech in it's pure form. This forum is closer to the controlled world from the movie Demolition man.

I don't know what can be done to fix the system, but refusing to acknowledge and talk about it certainly lowered our chances to ever find out.

You can rally behind free speech which is good but there are limitations that have to be observed personally attacks being one of them . A willingness to listen is the other . This is a two way street but the case with this post is try and open a dialogue . The early months of release was hell around here people arguing their points but not listening when stuff was told to them or turning what was told to them another argument .

The last point is free speech doesn't mean you don't have to be respectful when addressing an argument . You can say limiting free speech is bad but in this case the environment was a mob mentality driving off potential conversations . I would like to think this is like curfew during a riot may be a bad analogy but turning conversations that started out well then going toxic is something that can't be tolerated because it doesn't fix anything .
 
(In the interests of promoting conversation towards a resolution to the present issue, perhaps we should reserve a debate over freedom of speech for another time, as it might only distract us here.)


Returning to the matter at hand, it seems to me that the much of the ‘communications issue’ has arisen from misunderstandings of intentions and purposes as to the Forums functions. A fundamental question which remains to be thoroughly resolved is: What is the purpose of these forums? Are they an informal gathering-place for both admirers and developers of The Witcher Series? Or are they a live, direct, official communications channel between the two? What may we realistically expect here in the way of communication and information from the REDs? What are the Forums? What should they be? What would we like them to become? However, what can they actually become? A clear definition and goal for the Forums, as established by CD Projekt and the Community, would improve our common frame of reference appreciably. If a respectful compromise and understanding of the scope and objective of the Forums as a source of information can be reached between the two, then this may go some way in mitigating the present difficulties.

As to what the Forums appear to be at present: From recent comments by @theta77 , @Benzenzimmern , and a few others, we've learned that most of them who visit the Forums do so in their spare time, as a form of entertainment, and may, occasionally, volunteer to answer a few questions at their own discretion. They are neither obligated to do so, nor are they paid for handling support issues or assuaging public outcry. From their comments, it seems they would prefer to have fun here, but devote the bulk of their attentions and energies to the creation of their games. Under this model, the Forums remain more causal, less consistent as a means of communication, and thus less reliable as an information source. As it stands, this is the current reality. In contrast to this, however, many community members want CD Projekt RED to be more transparent and open with their fans regarding a wide variety of minute aspects of the development process of their games. In brief, this group would like to be kept abreast of what’s going on ‘behind-the-scenes’. Another section of this group appears to want the Forums to resemble a Facebook page, or a Twitter account with 24 hour updates about patches, technical support, forthcoming releases, and so on. Of these two groups, many have either explicitly or implicitly expressed the opinion that, as paying customers – or perhaps just as fans – they’re entitled to this information, and CD Projekt is obliged to furnish them with it, if they want these customers to buy their games. (I’ll leave this claim of entitlement for our examination, so we may ponder its validity at our own leisure.) If CD Projekt were to adopt the requested model for the forums, it would require additional staff, considerable revisions to the website, and heightened maintenance. Ideally -- and realistically -- all of these would require budgeting allocations, which would in turn reduce available resources for game development. It remains to be seen if the REDs wish to pursue such a course of alterations. However, these two concepts of the Forums – the present reality reflected by the REDs’ attitudes, and the ideals envisioned by the Community – do not coincide. If the former is maintained, relatively minor adjustments can be made to improve the situation; however, if the latter is to be realised, there is considerable work yet to be done.

If the REDs wish to keep this relaxed, informal approach, then a statement to such effect, clearly placed upon all accesses to the Forums, would relieve confusion amongst people who come here expecting an immediate, personal reply. Because I personally doubt they wish to invest the time and money in keeping a large staff assigned to this website, and would rather allow it to continue as it has, I have a proposition, which may help reduces confusion to a degree. To facilitate this, a clear posting and understanding of the rules of the Forums is necessary for all new and existing members. This would caution users that they’re in no way guaranteed, nor entitled to a response from CD Projekt RED on the Forums. The intermittent and informal visiting habits of the REDs would be clearly explained in this statement, which could also directed users with questions to the proper technical support and business inquiries e-mails. Thereby, perhaps we could reduce a certain amount of confusion, anger, and disappointment. This is not, of course, a fool-proof method of resolving any of the problems, nor does it purport to be an ideal solution. But, with concise, thorough guidelines, rules, contact information, and a disclaimer regarding responses, some miscommunications could potentially be reduces, if not eliminated. This information should be kept in front of users’ eyes, both upon entering the Forums, and while browsing the threads. This would serve as a useful resource for both moderators and members alike, as it would be a convenient reference, to which moderators could direct users for common questions or concerns, or in the event of misconduct. Likewise, it could be an authoritative document, to which aggrieved users could hold the Moderators accountable, if they wished to contest their rulings. To this end, a thorough revision of the rules may be necessary, to better reflect the policies and practices here on the Forums. These revisions would require close work between the Web-site and Community Managers, such as @Marcin Momot , and the Moderators.

Relevant to the subject of reform, as they stand now, the Forums are very disorganised, often redundant, and generally confusing to both newcomers and veterans. Multiple threads in a number of sub-forums contain the same questions, complaints, and discussions. Sometimes these become pushed down the list by new threads, resulting in another being created, only to have the useful information sink out of sight, as good as lost. Sometimes a response, link, or explanation is given in one thread, but is not seen by everyone else; therefore, someone initiates a new thread for the same question(s). Other times, a response can be buried by thanks, comments, or tangents, until only those who have monitored the thread closely know where the actual reply is – and sometimes not even then. Readily locating information thus becomes an issue, and, upon this note, the search tools have recently been repeatedly described as inconclusive, unsuccessful, and thus unhelpful. To improve this situation, I therefore propose that the Forums are eventually due for a redesign, to make them less cluttered, repetitious, and compartmentalised. A cleaner, more direct, and effective format could prove beneficial. (If there are any suggestions from the Community, based upon other efficient web-sites or forums, perhaps another thread could be opened to collect that input?)

While my propositions may not ultimately resolve the issues, or satisfy the desires of all factions, I see them as realistic improvements, which can be implemented at reasonably low cost, and which would improve communication, promote clarity of expectations and function, organisation, and lay the first foundations for possible future improvements.

Addendum:
As a preliminary to these proposed improvements, I shall be compiling further notes on the rules, policies of the Forums, along with the attitudes and opinions of RED Team members regarding responses, with the goal of creating another F.A.Q., for the benefit of all visitors. I welcome any input -- via Private Message, please -- the Community, Moderators, or CD Projekt staff may have towards this end. Thank you.
 
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A lot was already said. Many ideas and proposals were presented. So now what I personally (and I guess many here) want to see is some response from CDPR. I appreciate @Benzenzimmern commenting, but it was about his personal approach which I value. It's not an official response from CD Projekt Red about improving communication.

So, to address CD Projekt Red - to make something productive out of all this discussion, can you please comment about how exactly you can improve the communication. Or whether you plan to improve it at all or may be you want to leave things as is. Such kind of response would actually move things forward.

I recommend pausing all further discussions in this thread until CDPR will come and respond to this. Otherwise I get a feeling this will not be productive.

---------- Updated at 09:17 PM ----------

+ @Marcin Momot to bring it to his attention.
 
A lot was already said. Many ideas and proposals were presented. So now what I personally (and I guess many here) want to see is some response from CDPR. I appreciate @Benzenzimmern commenting, but it was about his personal approach which I value. It's not an official response from CD Projekt Red about improving communication.

So, to address CD Projekt Red - to make something productive out of all this discussion, can you please comment about how exactly can you improve the communication. Or whether you plan to improve it at all or may be you want to leave things as is. Such kind of response would actually move things forward.
I recommend pausing all further discussions in this thread until CDPR will come and respond to this. Otherwise I get a feeling this will not be productive.

Lets be frank, you and I and most of the modding crew want to see a response regarding two issues - Modding support and the technical interview. And it's fairly clear this is guarded territory. You just asked Marcin about it and he didn't respond, unless it was by PM. Almost certainly this is policy straight from the top, so the devs we communicate with cannot answer. That's not to diminish their response in story and gameplay threads. Everyone appreciates that. But the two issues I mentioned seem to be under lock and key for now.
 
Lets be frank, you and I and most of the modding crew want to see a response regarding two issues - Modding support and the technical interview. And it's fairly clear this is guarded territory. You just asked Marcin about it and he didn't respond, unless it was by PM. Almost certainly this is policy straight from the top, so the devs we communicate with cannot answer. That's not to diminish their response in story and gameplay threads. Everyone appreciates that. But the two issues I mentioned seem to be under lock and key for now.

To be clear, I didn't get any PMs about the interview and I didn't bring up this topic again to give @Marcin Momot some room for maneuvering, i.e. time to clarify things about it before answering.

But you bring a perfect point. If something can't be addressed now for whatever obscure reason, improving communication would mean coming to the forum and saying "we can't conduct the interview now for reason XYZ (or may be for a reason we can't even talk about)". That's it. That's communication. Negative response, but response nevertheless. Not saying anything is not communication and that's exactly what we are discussing here - how it should be improved.

And if CDPR don't plan to improve things - I won't really bother with such community efforts anymore.
 
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Relevant to the subject of reform, as they stand now, the Forums are very disorganised, often redundant, and generally confusing to both newcomers and veterans. Multiple threads in a number of sub-forums contain the same questions, complaints, and discussions. Sometimes these become pushed down the list by new threads, resulting in another being created, only to have the useful information sink out of sight, as good as lost. Sometimes a response, link, or explanation is given in one thread, but is not seen by everyone else; therefore, someone initiates a new thread for the same question(s). Other times, a response can be buried by thanks, comments, or tangents, until only those who have monitored the thread closely know where the actual reply is – and sometimes not even then. Readily locating information thus becomes an issue, and, upon this note, the search tools have recently been repeatedly described as inconclusive, unsuccessful, and thus unhelpful. To improve this situation, I therefore propose that the Forums are eventually due for a redesign, to make them less cluttered, repetitious, and compartmentalised. A cleaner, more direct, and effective format could prove beneficial. (If there are any suggestions from the Community, based upon other efficient web-sites or forums, perhaps another thread could be opened to collect that input?)

OK, I think this is a topic for another thread but please, please ANYONE come forward with ideas on this. We spent a crazy amount of time trying to move, merge, consolidate, and it was like herding cats. I think that one side-effect of the surge of new forum members is that a lot are unfamiliar with the way that a traditional forum like this is structured, and we would definitely welcome suggestions for improvement. (I'd go further, I'd BEG anyone with ideas to come forward).

But, as I said, even though it does relate tangentially to communication, another thread please.
 
To be clear, I didn't get any PMs about the interview and I didn't bring up this topic again to give @Marcin Momot some room for maneuvering, i.e. time to clarify things about it before answering.

But you bring a perfect point. If something can't be addressed now for whatever obscure reason, improving communication would mean coming to the forum and saying "we can't conduct the interview now for reason XYZ (or may be for a reason we can't even talk about)". That's it. That's communication. Negative response, but response nevertheless. Not saying anything is not communication and that's exactly what we are discussing here - how it should be improved.

And if CDPR don't plan to improve things - I won't really bother with such community efforts anymore.

Technical Q&A - I've already responded to this one with my original post in this topic. It was impossible to conduct it because of some last minute changes and improvements we were implementing - we were simply not ready to talk about techncalities before the release.

Modding support - as we mentioned before, at this moment we are 100% focused on delivering both expansion packs for The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt. The MODkit is the only modding support there is for Wild Hunt. We have no plans to releasing anything else. We will however continue to update it - there's a new, updated version coming out quite soon actually. It will be available on our forums and on Nexus.

Now, moving forward to improving the communication. We have a solid strategy in place and we've already started implementing it - you can see way more posts from me in different topics on the forums. Paweł has also started chiming in as well. The plan is to be more present on the forums and to communicate better what's going on in the studio as well as answer questions from the community more often. I believe that we are on the right track now.
 
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