Community manager for CDPR compares gamergate to the KKK

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You know what helps counter that "the other" demonizing? Jennifer Hale came out against GG early in a radio interview, but she did it in a respectful way, even if one could argue that she was a bit misinformed about the topic. Awesome, positive person, though, and it's impossible to hate Fall-From-Grace. Having people on the "other side" you genuinely respect makes it a bit easier to avoid demonizing entire swaths of people.

There have been been some individual attacks too, though. It's not all wide-spanning; sometimes it really is directed at a single user with them in mind as the sole target of that attack. Especially on Twitter. And my memory of the early months is a bit fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure someone asked me straight-faced if I didn't just secretly hate women. Or maybe that was directed to someone else. It happened to somebody, though.

I agree with all of that. And the individual attacks were pretty bad, (and, Neothanus, if you were a victim of them I'm very, very sorry that it did happen to you).
And yes, the "sockpuppet" accusations, the "you must secretly hate your own sex" accusations, the "brainwashed female" accusations.
 
The moderators here do an almost perfect job. (...)

NO comment.

[Sard Edit: Actually, that is a comment. And a passive-aggressive one! Yes!]

Well, since the name change, he disappeared. If he's here, he's incognito. BLOTH! Say something incomprehensible but somehow funny!



It would.


Well, if you threaten a man's employment, or suggest he be terminated from said livelihood, then, yes, that is a powerful financial incentive to curtail his speech. If you consider tweets and posts harassing and full of hatred difficult to deal with, as your links and comment indicate, then that is another incentive to curtail your speech.

Of course, I do not believe in free speech. Ridiculous notion, like "human rights". The degree to which we allow, restrict and enforce certain activities in various cultures is more a reflection of those cultures than any Truth the universe cares about. Do I think the ideas of same have value in my culture? Absolutely.

"Free speech" is a slippery concept. Different people apply it different ways. Here in Canada, a Much Better Place Than Wherever You People Are, we limit your speech in many ways. Hate speech, prohibited. Libel and slander, ( one is in print, one is oral) are punished. Theoretically.

And yet a very bright teacher friend of mine, ( also the finest Cyberpunk Ref all of you will never meet), points out that allowing people to say really stupid hurtful shit is an important part of any healthy "free speech" platform. That you should -not- be punished financially or legally because you say whatever racist or anti-group nonsense crosses what passes for your mind. He has a point.

You're going to think it regardless, but if "we" decide you can't say it, or you should be punished for syaing it, then who are "we"? The majority? The police? Joseph McCarthy? Isn't that simply a culture of majority approval?

Of course, as any political or legal student knows, the idea of "free speech" isn't that you can say what you want, consequence free. It is that you can say what you want, in order to spread your ideas, without government interference.

That's really important, but in this day and age of instant-media and powerful corporations, perhaps that principle is too limited?

In any case, anyone arguing with me will be banned. Some of you, twice.

Guess I'm on the chopping block then.
That's one self-contradictory post.

One can attempt to turn this into a philosophical discussion on what free speech is. I'm up for that and my opening remark would be that, in my opinion, your #1 job as moderator is to defend free speech around here. Yet I feel the more pressing matter is this: North America has a community manager which exercises his free speech rights on Twitter, no quarrels there, but at the same time shows a burning desire to curtail the free speech of others in spheres he has authority over. Let's not forget member disputes with moderators go through TheEvilChris. Do I regard him as a fair-minded impartial individual capable of making such sensitive calls? I'm afraid the man has shown not to be up to the task.

Questions I'd like answered, but which probably only TheEvilChris or Calgary Expo can answer:

1) Besides that tweet, did TheEvilChris in any other way pressure the Calgary Expo into closing that booth?
2) Did that tweet directly lead to the closing of that booth and if so was it because the tweet was from the North American community manager at CD Projekt RED?

The mods here are better than the ones just about anywhere else*, and that's impressive given the fact that they're working in a pretty inflexible rules system where you can't even openly challenge mod decisions. That stuff isn't their call, and a lot of times just PMing one of the mods in a heated moment is enough to reach a better understanding than anything you'd accomplish by calling them out in public.

*Except for Sandpaper. That guy's the worst.

Even Guy, who always seems to be on "the other side" of wherever I stand on these contentious issues, is pretty damned awesome. Smart guy, helped a lot of people, and like a one-man Wikipedia. I have no complaints as far as the mod situation goes, and that's coming from someone who's come close to being banned a bunch of times. Ah, memories.

You and I are just going to respectfully agree to disagree on every single statement you made, ah, not quite, almost every single statement you made if only because moderation is not the topic at hand nor could it ever be. Just run this thought experiment:

What would have happened to your post if instead of praising you'd criticized mods?

[Sard Edit:

Oh, something like this:]



Think about it.

[Sard Edit: Yeah! Think about it! Look at that Pony DANCE.]

WHERE do you get these ideas?! (....)

Errr,
my reading of the forum rules?

[Sard Edit: Blue! I just -read- the forum rules, (for the umpteenth time! God, they are boring) It's a long list of things -you- can't do or say and a list of the things -I- can do to your posts for doing them! Things like THIS. HOW do you get the idea that is free speech?

Wait. Don't answer. That'd be arguing with a mod or something and it would mean punishment! Wait. No,,,go ahead and answer...feel freeee.....]

Your opinion is consistent with your practice, I'll give you that. I'm speaking generally here, not addressing you in particular. Anyway, enough talking about moderation. TheEvilChris' tweet is the topic at hand.


Agent Bleu's EDIT: I rather enjoy having my posts tampered with. And thanks for all the good you do!
 
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1) Besides that tweet, did TheEvilChris in any other way pressure the Calgary Expo to close that booth?
2) Did that tweet directly lead to that booth being closed and if so was it because the tweet was from the North American community manager at CD Projekt RED?
You seem to be under the wrong impression, check the twitter account for that expo, plenty of people were 'complaining' about in on Twitter, Chris just happened to be one of them.
 

227

Forum veteran
No comment.
The mods here are better than the ones just about anywhere else*, and that's impressive given the fact that they're working in a pretty inflexible rules system where you can't even openly challenge mod decisions. That stuff isn't their call, and a lot of times just PMing one of the mods in a heated moment is enough to reach a better understanding than anything you'd accomplish by calling them out in public.

*Except for Sandpaper. That guy's the worst.

Even Guy, who always seems to be on "the other side" of wherever I stand on these contentious issues, is pretty damned awesome. Smart guy, helped a lot of people, and like a one-man Wikipedia. I have no complaints as far as the mod situation goes, and that's coming from someone who's come close to being banned a bunch of times. Ah, memories.
 
Ahahahahah! Blue, our job is NOT to protect free speech here. WHERE do you get these ideas?! Our job is to enforce CDPR policy on these boards.

That's it! That's our job. No one said, in print or anywhere, "Sard, your job here is to protect free speech." I know this, because I would have been laughing tooooo hard to sign the NDA.

You may -think- that's our job here, but you may also -think- we can fly with our mind powers! Except in the example of dear Tommy, that's simply not the case. We can't mind-fly and we don't protect your free speech. Nooope. No. Not what I signed on for or was instructed to do. And no wishing to the contrary will make it so.

Let me make this reaaaalllly clear for anyone wondering:

It Is Not The Moderators Job To Protect Your Free Speech Of Any Kind On These Forums.

Everyone get it? I just want to put a nail in that for good. It's not in our education "package" or a part of our mandate. Curtailing your rogue speech would be more accurate. Curtailing our own would be even more accurate - I really think that's how I got the job. "Minion! Find the biggest mouthpiece on the Cpunk boards and shut him up." "Yes, My Glorious Polish Master! Oh, Saaaaaard..."

We have a kind of wide ranging job here, more or less aimed at keeping things calm and friendly enough that people feel inclined and comfortable to post and counterpost. With decency and in good order, to quote someone smrt recently.

Like the effects of vocal minorites, how happy and healthy a forum/game community is, is difficult to measure. I -think- we're happy and healthy here, except for perhaps a half-dozen or so consistent naysayers. Every family has it's black sheeps.

Anyway, this diverges into discussions on moderation, while although -somewhat- pertinent in this case, stand an amusing chance of MASSIVE BANNING AND CENSORING. Also ponies.

Edit: Also black goats. Sheep-goats. Darkest goatseep!
 
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227

Forum veteran
Every family has it's black sheeps.
The plural form of "sheep" is also sheep, you fool!

And this thread could use more ponies. They make for a great emotion buffer. It's hard to say something cutting when there's a giant pony picture staring you in the face. Cat pictures, too. Animal pictures in general are the emotional reset button of the internet.

And everyone should remember to post Ewok pictures. They're adorable, and I have it on good authority that Sard loves Ewoks. Great way to butter him up.

Sard Edit:

I hate you.

 
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I know this, because I would have been laughing tooooo hard to sign the NDA.
You just DISCLOSED that our NON DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT does not contain any line about free speech. I think you will be imprisoned now, possibly hanged.
 
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I belive that as a community manager, Chris REALLY should have known better and if by some chance he gets sacked, it should not be for his opinions, but for his opinions costing the company their profits and alienating the consumer base.
 
I'm always conflicted when something like this happens. On one hand he has the right to say it, and no one can really stop him from saying it. On the other it was a very poor thing to say that can look bad to CDPR. It leaves me rather confused by what I hope the outcome is, I don't want to see him fired for one thing but he should be reprimanded in some way. A public apology or even saying I didn't mean everyone and that generalization was wrong would be nice. I want to see how this does play out, his views are his own but if more people from CDPR make the comparison and I feel like it is the major belief in the company I may no longer support CDPRs current and future products any longer.
 
I never understood why CD Project Red hired him in the first place considering his troublesome past on the Bioware forums and I remember a lot of people here not being happy about it, but like someone mentioned earlier, these people gave him the benefit of a doubt.
Looking at his tweets it seem's he hasn't changed a bit. No matter what you think about Gamergate, comparing them and their supporters with the worldwide best known racist organization is stupid. I also don't find him particulary helpful, because it's pretty clear that he doesn't know much about the Witcher franchise. (I would be surprised if he had read the books or played Witcher 1) and I don't see how for example Marcin couldn't give us the new information about Witcher 3 instead. But hey maybe he is doing a fantastic job outside of the forum. I don't know so I can't judge it.
Does anybody know if he is responsible for the english version of the facebook page?
 
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I'm always conflicted when something like this happens. On one hand he has the right to say it, and no one can really stop him from saying it. On the other it was a very poor thing to say that can look bad to CDPR. It leaves me rather confused by what I hope the outcome is, I don't want to see him fired for one thing but he should be reprimanded in some way. A public apology or even saying I didn't mean everyone and that generalization was wrong would be nice. I want to see how this does play out, his views are his own but if more people from CDPR make the comparison and I feel like it is the major belief in the company I may no longer support CDPRs current and future products any longer.
I am conflicted as well about stuff like this. On the one hand I think people should be able to voice their opinions without representing their companies, but on the other hand most people don't usually see it that way. There are so many examples of people pressuring companies. I find it a bit ironic that after Priesly and others on twitter successfully pressured the CalgaryExpo into banning a group of mostly women who have anti-censorship posters that now we should turn the other cheek and support his right to free speech. It's a sick joke. This isn't the first time this has happened. A developer and a programmer both lost their jobs for tweeting about supporting GamerGate. It's sad and pathetic. Developers are afraid of speaking out in support of GamerGate.
 
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Do some of you guys really want this guy fired for a comment he made on twitter? Wow. That's a bit extreme if you ask me...

I do think that what he said was utter nonsense and that he should be aware of that saying such things in his position is a bit problematic but an official warning should be sufficient imo. Alienating the customer base by controversial statements surely isn't the job of a community manager and CDPR should communicate that to him.

But I also do think that CDPR should reconsider why they hired this guy. What's his job exactly? And how is he performing? It still baffles me that he can go away with knowing litterally nothing about the franchise he is supposed to work on. Like I said before: would you hire somebody to work on a new Star Wars game if the guy openly admits that he hasn't watched the movies and has no intention to change that? How can real fans of the franchise take somebody like that seriously? His troubling past at the Bioware forums surely doesn't help to strengthen his position neither...
 
I am conflicted as well about stuff like this. On the one hand I think people should be able to voice their opinions without representing their companies, but on the other hand most people don't usually see it that way. There are so many examples of people pressuring consumers. I find it a bit ironic that after Priesly and others on twitter successfully pressured the CalgaryExpo into banning a group of mostly women who have anti-censorship posters that now we should turn the other cheek and support his right to free speech. It's a sick joke. This isn't the first time this has happened. A developer and a programmer both lost their jobs for tweeting about supporting GamerGate. It's sad and pathetic. Developers are afraid of speaking out in support of GamerGate.

You should not hide behind free speech while advocting to supress it. And a community manager should not acuse gamers a lot of them like me consumers of their employer of being part of a hate group or saying they are like the KKK. He is free to say what he wants he is also fre to deal with the consequences.
 
I'm not just conflicted, I'm disgusted.

He writes that on a twitter account clearly stating he's the community manager. His idea of inclusion is excluding anyone who has a different opinion. And apparently he finds it fine to lash out at a whole group without ifs or buts and comparing them to racists?

I've been called many things over the last months, from rapist to misogynist (from people who didn't realize I was a woman). from sock-puppet to a traitor to my gender (coming from people who realized I was a woman). But one thing was always clear, it where unimportant dimwits I could brush aside like little kids.
However this coming from a community manager for a developer I really respected. It hurts.
 
For me it is clear that @TheEvilChris should apologize. What he said was disgusting and disrespectful. There is no other way.
 
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I've no idea what this "gamergate" is, and what it has to do with the kkk.
I know this is long but it's worth the read if you want to educate yourself on the subject.

It's a bit complicated but I witnessed it from the beginning. Before there was even a GG hashtag, an ex-boyfriend of an indie dev released a blog post about how his gf cheated on him with several guys and emotionally abused him in his relationship. He had chat logs and everything. Most people didn't care about the sex scandal part, just the fact allegedly there was a relationship between a journalist who had covered that indie developer. But imo this isn't what started GG. It was the reaction to the story from journalists and indie devs. There was a lot of censorship across gaming sites. A youtube video talking about the story was taken down with a DMCA. A reddit thread had over 20k comments deleted on the subject in it. Journalists and devs were insulting people who were questioning the story on twitter.
A few examples of journalists or devs insulting at the beginning of this:
http://41.media.tumblr.com/d3af9973bcd8500d639820631b5002ba/tumblr_nb7vhzKJ4y1tkhroeo1_1280.png
http://41.media.tumblr.com/67ef882c52d4d04e49f699c9612eb55a/tumblr_nb4mgc3s9n1tkhroeo1_1280.png
http://40.media.tumblr.com/8851b01e1348a6ccad2f00c9b640ff96/tumblr_nb65gioCZj1tkhroeo1_1280.jpg
http://40.media.tumblr.com/6f9fb624582e4d5a09ceb2174da96c18/tumblr_nb4rxxXlrK1tkhroeo1_1280.png
http://40.media.tumblr.com/82908ee658a1314183fe1a41179b0764/tumblr_nb4oyrLkg21tkhroeo1_1280.png
http://41.media.tumblr.com/a9e7ae2fb1e6d1a117b9e3c691b99860/tumblr_nb4pxxqFev1tkhroeo1_540.png
http://40.media.tumblr.com/c8a76a69831e91972d4e14352389052f/tumblr_nb42c3UCgz1tkhroeo1_1280.jpg

There is far more vitriol from anonymous people and a lot still missing from other journalists and devs. Due to the censorship and insults, journalists looked guilty so people started doing more investigating and found far worse examples like Patricia Hernandez writing several articles about Anna Anthropy when she was roommates with her. She also use to date a dev named Christina Love and still wrote articles about that dev. Nathan Grayson being close friends with Robin Arnott came out and he had also written several articles about him. It came out that several journalists were paying Zoe Quinn and other devs money every month. Journalists funding developers' personal lives and covering them. Huge conflict of interest there. There are more examples of unethical journalism but want to keep this short.

It also came out that Zoe Quinn earlier that year had misrepresented a feminist charity/contest for a woman to design her own video game with their developers. The charity was called The Fine Young Capitalists. No journalists would report on this even before GG. Think about that for a minute. Websites that can't stop talking about how bad women have it in the industry and how we need more women developing games refused to report about a charity/contest designed to promote women designing games.

So this story goes on and for about a week and Stephen Totilo (EiC of Kotaku) says he spoke with the journalist (Grayson) about the relationship and how Grayson claims the relationship began after the article was written. But it was too late, people were upset at having been insulted and bullied for a week and there were other stories much worse about unethical journalists. Several days later, instead of apologizing and trying to do better and adopt ethical policies journalists came together and wrote 10 articles (Gamers are Dead articles) in a single day attacking gamers, the consumers they are suppose to serve. This was obviously coordinated between journalists and this is around the time the GamerGate hashtag was created and this event really set off the whole thing. Now journalists were using articles to attack and demonize them. This is why people became even more upset at this story of corruption, because it wasn't just swept under the rug. Journalists and indie devs actually attacked their critics and libeled them as misogynists and a hate group. Had the story proceeded normally and journalists not insulted and attacked their critics, it would have been over in a couple weeks.

A couple weeks after those articles are released it comes out that there was GameJournosPro group. 150 journalists across different gaming websites who all colluded and coordinated on news coverage and this story in particular. You could see Ben Kuchera and Kyle Orland pressuring Greg Tito of the Escapist to censor all talk of GamerGate. You could see how this group was used a year earlier to try to blacklist a journalist Allistair Pinsof which is illegal. Again no apology or remorse. They just deleted the group after it was discovered. Likely to make sure nothing else was leaked.

Also if anyone still thinks this is some sort of hate group. Due to GamerGate spreading awareness of TYFC charity and donating to it, they were able to raise $70k so they could run their contest. And last I heard they selected their winner and are developing the game. GG has also raised over $40k to various other charities like anti-bullying, suicide prevention, food for the hungry, animals, etc. Of course you won't hear about this at all from the media.

On the subject of harassment and the alleged harassers in GG. The threats made to Anita Sarkeesian at the end of August and Brianna Wu do not mention GG at all. Someone made a dummy account on twitter and then sent threats to them. Those accounts were reported and suspended, but AS and BW insist on the threats being made by GamerGate even though there is no way to know for sure. It's also worth mentioning many people in GamerGate or sympathetic to it were doxxed or threatened. A list of about 20 people who were doxxed for talking about GG was circulating around 2 months into the story. I didn't recognize all the names but of those I did, seven were women. People were receiving emails or DMs telling them they knew who they were and where they lived, posting their names and addresses. And if they didn't stop tweeting about GG they would release their personal info. In one case I remember them threatening to also release someone's family info so their family would be harassed. In another a woman was threatened with being raped with a metal object. Keep in mind these people had the courage to screenshot these emails or DMs and post them. Who knows about many were successfully intimidated.

IMO third party trolls were sending threats to people on both sides of the argument, but mostly to people on the GamerGate hashtag. I saw a couple accounts where people would pretend to be on one side of the issue for a day, then a couple days later you would see them on the other side. Typically they would be attacking and trying to make the side they were on look bad. If the story had been reported on properly by journalists I don't think the trolls would have gotten so much attention. But it was convenient to use them to represent everyone on the hashtag because journalists didn't want to have to face responsibility for their actions and the controversy they caused.

It's also worth mentioning that Kotaku is owned by Gawker media and Polygon is owned my Vox media. When gamers started emailing advertisers for Kotaku and Polygon to point out their unethical and corrupt behavior, their parent media companies got involved and used their other media outlets to continue to accuse GG of being misogynists and a hate group. Somehow this lie spread to MSM and that's why that's all you hear. ZQ, BW and AS have also made a ton of money off this controversy and blaming GG.

The whole thing is absurd. Tens (likely hundreds) of thousands of people ,men, women, black, white, straight, gay, etc, did not come together to harass a couple of women or all women in the gaming industry. The idea is ludicrous. I just can't fathom how people believe something so insane. There are actually people who say that the only reason people in GG talk about ethics is so they can use it as a smokescreen to harass women. Does anyone believe that? Even if there were a few people who were apart of GG and harassing people, there are tens of thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of people apart of this thing on Twitter. There have been about 7 million tweets on the subject. Using a few bad apples to judge everyone is misleading and disingenuous. It would be like me going to prison and using the murderers and criminals there who are conservative or liberal or apart of what ever group to represent that entire group. It's wrong. You're suppose to ignore trolls not give them the attention they desperately want and thrive on.

There is more but I can't remember everything and I wanted to keep this as brief as possible while touching on everything. A lot of aspects and different stuff to this story. It's been going on for 8 months after all. If anyone has any questions or wants clarifications about the story, I can probably answer them.
 
Chris really shot himself in the foot with that line. It would be best if he apologizes as such a comparison is utterly useless, as comparing a pressure group to a known terrorist organisation is completely stupid and offensive. That has already been stated.
 
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I understand why some people outside or on the fringes of the gaming community have only a shallow understanding of Gamergate and so reduce it to the deflecting minority aspect rather than give the serious aspects of the movement the proper consideration it deserves.

I do not understand how a gaming Community Manager could make such a massive mistake as we have witnessed. Good job at alienating your userbase. I have personally given TheEvilChris the second chance everyone deserves, but now, without some Rapprochement on this subject I will have lost all confidence in him as a representative, and even some respect for the REDs, by association.
 
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