Competitive ruling: proNEO3001

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Sorry CDPR, but I do not have a position in your company, so i need to see evidence for myself. Because today ban proNEO, tommorow me. But evidence is SOLID. Don't panic. Just donate more.

Hold on. In most games people getting banned is not even public knowledge. Cheaters are just banned, nothing is said about it etc. CDPR have actually come out and said what they did, which is more than they needed to do. So have some trust in them.
 
I respect Freddy, but the way he handled that situation and the fact that the main beneficiary is his good friend leaves a bad taste in my mouth. That doesn't mean that ProNeo shouldn't be punished but mature and respectful people solve such matters in a different way. That whole drama and sensationalism weren't necessary.
I absolutely agree with this. Freddy entered the situation with a clear agenda, though he did recognize it. He also did himself and the process no favours by bringing nationality into the equation. But this doesn't seem to be a snap decision by CDPR. It is almost two weeks past the end of the season, which is plenty of time for them to do their due diligence. Honestly, it would have been far easier for them to just try and sweep this all under the rug and pretend it didn't happen. By addressing it and hopefully taking corrective actions to ensure that it can't happen again, they show that they are taking the competitive side of this game seriously.
 
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Hold on. In most games people getting banned is not even public knowledge. Cheaters are just banned, nothing is said about it etc. CDPR have actually come out and said what they did, which is more than they needed to do. So have some trust in them.
They banned because of report, not because of public video by competitors isn't it?
You guys ask to trust the company, which once said "There is no mulligan bug".

And I see that CIS-players are not protected from arbitrariness, because they ban well known CIS-player and no publish evidence. I saw videos by Freddybabes and there is a bunch of mistakes. So i need to know, that there is something more than coolstories about CIS-players conspiracy. ProNEO had some reputation. This is not some cheater from nowhere.
We need to know, that he is banned for a reason, and not because of some xenophobes crying.
 
Me and all of the russian-speaking community want to know truth:

1. We want to see real proofs from the CDPR

2. We need proofs that it was intentionally

3. An amount of games with this bug and their impact on statistics

4. Why an the beginning proNEO was accused of wintrading and later – of using game bugs
 
Lack of information gives rise to speculation. Just publish evidence and no problem, as I said before.

#1: Transparency is usually a good thing, but it's not always the best solution. For example, some data cannot be published because of privacy concerns. Maybe other data shouldn't be revealed because it's too technical. There could be legitimate reasons why CDPR doesn't want to disclose any prove, beyond that they are not obligated to do so.

All these demands for prove are based on the assumption that CDPR is playing dirty or being incompetent. I rather give them the benefit of the doubt. They are not like certain companies whose name shall not be mentioned. And to repeat myself, CDPR knows fully well the backlash of this announcement (and the actions taken therein) and still they went forward with it. That alone should really give it some weight; more than just because they felt like making an example.

naturally quote guys from my country in 1937

That's a very dangerous comparison and it's also flawed. Unfortunately, discussing real-world politics is against the forum rules. So, I cannot delve deeper into this (and, obviously, neither should you).

For an online game, the studio makes the rules (within the confines of the law). They can ban half the player base, without giving a reason, if they wanted to. It sounds bad (and suicidal) and you might want to compare it to real-life scenarios, but remember that it's only a game (and you should not bring politics to the forum).

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They banned because of report, not because of public video by competitors isn't it?

More assumptions. Yes, transparency, I know. See point #1.

We need to know, that he is banned for a reason, and not because of some xenophobes crying.

You want to know, because you do not trust CDPR. See point #1.

And you guys ask to trust the company, which once said "There is no mulligan bug".

Apples and oranges. PS. it wasn't a bug, but an inherent flaw of the mulligan design. I say "flaw" because players perceive it as a bug, that was fixable, while it actually was a logical result of how the mulligan works, which wasn't fixable within the current design.
 
Hold on. In most games people getting banned is not even public knowledge. Cheaters are just banned, nothing is said about it etc. CDPR have actually come out and said what they did, which is more than they needed to do. So have some trust in them.

Ehh... I'm not entirely sure it was handled well. If only because it should be expected the end result is going to be, well, the responses in this thread. Person A says guilty. Person B screams not guilty. Person B then starts throwing the words want and need around a bit too freely. That can easily devolve into person A and B throwing rocks at each other because, well, you can never disagree with another individual without throwing shit at them :). Meanwhile, the poor mods have to watch the thread like a hawk so they can quickly neutralize any.... problematic developments. Yeah....
 
Multiple posts deleted for name calling people or groups of people. A reminder of the forum guidelines:

In particular, it is prohibited to:
- post content which insults individuals or social groups, or spoil (in a broad sense) the fun of other users
 
And a few more posts deleted for being duplicate.

Instead, I'll just quote the message from concerned Russian players below:

Me and all of the russian-speaking community want to know truth:
1. We want to see real proofs from the CDPR
2. We need proofs that it was intentionally
3. An amount of games with this bug and their impact on statistics
4. Why an the beginning proNEO was accused of wintrading and later – of using game bugs

^ Yes, those points have been noted. (Once again because I quoted it.) But, please, don't repeat the same message over and over.
 
Hello, all.

You are upset. We respect that. However, forum rules still apply.

Feel free to post, but remember:

1. Be constructive. Don't just rant and yell. That'll get deleted and worse.

2. Don't repeat yourself or others. Same as above and doesn't add anything. If you have a point to make, make it once and move on.

3. Be Friendly and Polite. If you are upset and want to make that clear, that's fine, but do it without getting nasty.

We don't want to ban people - we have often and will again. This is still someone else's home, not yours. Their rules very much apply, as yours do in your home, and their rules are - be polite. Be calm.

Thanks.
 
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Always loved all those self-proclaimed voices of people...
"Me and all russian-speaking". Let's be honest and say "Me and all proneo's friends".

Jokes aside.

[Sard Edit: Nope]

Neo wasn't first banned player and for sure he is not a last one, why other bans was never undermined but when it hits your friend CDP RED is now not trustworthy company and "We need proofs"?
i'm not big fan of CDP RED (still remember when they finished season 2h early so i ended 201th without any explanation from them -.-) but so far there was not a smallest single evidence that they banned anyone without reason. For me all rope bug clips are huge evidence for neo's "not fair" attitude and I'm 100% sure that data they gathered is much "stronger" than some random clips from twitch.
Also it looks like tilting at windmills, if you doing your best to believe in your version of story earth will be always flat no matter what we will say/show.

1. We want to see real proofs from the CDPR

[Sard Edit: Nope]

I didn't see a single MMO game that was providing data like that to common people. If neo believes that he is innocent that's the case only between him and CDP RED. We don't deserve any proofs because we are not engagement in it.
Also following that "logic" why don't try to force company to show all evidences of all bans ever since "we can't trust them"?

2. We need proofs that it was intentionally

If you treat neo as a proplayer who has brain and for sure he deserves that treatment we can easly assume that he knew what rope bug was and how to try proc it. Also for sure he knew that using bugs is punishable. We have public clips that shows that he tried to do it multiple times. Now it's another harsh part. Sorry but if someone who uses bugs to avoid loses in game says that people "randomly concede to him and he dont know why" I press "doubt" button.
Anyways this is only my opinion, CDP RED can access logs and rest of stuff so for sure they made better investigation than random player like me.
"Intentionally" is really funny word here since if you want you can always try to claim that "Whole world knew only not him".

3. An amount of games with this bug and their impact on statistics

It doesn't matter much. Using bugs/cheating is punishable, I guess how much you was doing that can affect the dimension of penalty but that shouldnt concern us.
Impact? He won first place with 4 points difference if I remember correctly. Wintraded game can be around 15 MMR (assuming he could lose instead of win) and rope bugged around 7 MMR. One single game had huge impact, so it's probably really hard to assume how big difference all of them could make.

4. Why an the beginning proNEO was accused of wintrading and later – of using game bugs

I wasn't part of this drama so can be wrong but most likely it was this way:
Someone saw wins by proneo that he thought are suspicious. He talked with other players about that. Drama went outside and some not involved players was like "Hey, this dude also tried to rope bug me, here is a clip".
 
The fact that this was looked into and decision been made and CDPR making the decision public, gives me great trust in this game. There are way too many other games where nobody cares.

With that in mind, I'm very surprised to read so much from a small group of people actually complaining about a bug-abuser being banned. And the argumentation is typical populist 101, which frightens me. For example, saying "but others...", "you ruled over facts, but xxx said he wasn't cheating...", or ignoring householder's rights, ignoring evidence, ignoring facts and ignoring basic decency.

I'm glad CDPR does the right thing and is not afraid of a shitstorm, since there are higher stakes than a few fans of a banned player yelling.

I don't know any pro rank player, and I don't care about any conspiracy theories. I just care that CDPR takes action if a player is reported and rule based on facts, not fiction. And if that proneo3001 player had any dignity, he would admit it and calm down his fan base. It's counter-productive for himself if he doesn't.
 
Hi everyone, I see quite a discussion happening here and I would like to add a little bit to that.

To begin with, yes, I speak Russian and yes, proNEO is my friend. You can think of this comment as biased and skip it, but I would appreciate if you actually read it.

Always loved all those self-proclaimed voices of people...
"Me and all russian-speaking". Let's be honest and say "Me and all proneo's friends".

Do you mean to say that all Russian speaking Gwent players are proNEO's friends? I have got to dissapoint you here.. You are talking about hypocrisy of our community, that we are upset only because NEO is our friend, and not upset about other random players. Well, NEO is so far the only consistent player from the CIS regions that regularly appears on Gwent Pro Scene. And of course he has fans, just as Freddybabes and Alessio and any other pro player. We are not upset because NEO is our friend, we are upset because a player from our region was banned even though we haven't seen any proof of his guilt. And please be sure that we will stop supporting NEO once we are provided evidence of his guilt.

I love CDPR games, I am grateful for such amazing experiences that I had playing their games, and I fully trust their decision. But I am a fan and a friend of ProNEO himself and I have literally no proof of his guilt. So I'm kind of torn between two sides that I truly trust.

Concerning the video with House of Cards conceding. He already got banned for the incident, and there is no evidence that NEO asked him for the concede. And thank you CDPR that you do not accuse him of wintrade anymore. I just wanted to make this clear for people who didn't know what happened.

About the rope bug. I've seen the VODs where the bug is happening, but honestly, people who have been watching professional gwent for a long time, are you really surprised he was waiting for the rope? Lifecoach did the same on the first tournament, and what, should he be punished as well? The time is provided for players to think. No matter do I make my decision right after the turn is mine or in the end of the rope, this is my time. All the bugs related to the rope are a problem of the company, not the players. I do not know did NEO use the bug, or was he just employing the time that he is provided to make his turn. Once again, I trust both CDPR and proNEO, but if one side says that he abused the bug and another says that he had no idea about the bug and how it works, who should I believe?

^ Yes, those points have been noted. (Once again because I quoted it.) But, please, don't repeat the same message over and over.
Thank you for respecting and taking note of our concern. But to be honest, respect and attention is not what the CIS community needs - we need the truth and evidence.

And be sure, all the people who think that we support NEO because we are friends or somehow associated, the CIS community will stand for NEO as long as it has no reasons to distrust him. Prove us that the use of the rope bug was intentional, and we will be silent. Up until then, he is behind us like he is behind a wall made of stone.
 
Evidence is unlikely to be provided. Privacy and legal reasons prevent that. If NEO wants to share his experiences, that's up to him, but CDPR is not going to reveal the account-specific evidence on their side.

It would be a terrible precedent. Not only would it make their decisions about their game subject to the court of public opinion (referees in -any- game will tell you this is a very bad idea) but it would also expose their anti-cheat methods.

You may not like the Refs decision, or the league's decision, in a sport if it goes against your team, but it is their decision. And no team or sport seriously tries to go without Refs - or force them to do what the team supporters want.

That doesn't work out for the sport at all. Referees have to be neutral, following the rules, not responsible to any side.

The harder you push, the less likely you are to see them change their decision. That's how refereeing works.
 
Thank you for respecting and taking note of our concern. But to be honest, respect and attention is not what the CIS community needs - we need the truth and evidence.

And be sure, all the people who think that we support NEO because we are friends or somehow associated, the CIS community will stand for NEO as long as it has no reasons to distrust him. Prove us that the use of the rope bug was intentional, and we will be silent. Up until then, he is behind us like he is behind a wall made of stone.

Firstly, no, you do not speak for all Slavic people. ProNeo did enough wrong that it's obvious to anyone who is willing to be impartial... and I'm sure that CDPR -- primarily Polish people, are not targeting a Ukranian player out of some sort of racism. If you want to talk politics, Poland does favour Western countries more, but to claim racism against a Ukranian is a FAR stretch... I know many Polaks and they by no means hate Ukranians (or Russians, as some are strangely bringing up).

I for one call some of my Ukrainian friends "brother" light-heartedly, and I would love it if a Slav made it to the tournament, and better yet, won the money. But I'm more interested in what is fair, and for the best player to win through skill (and a little luck of course -- despite no RNG in gwont).


Here is some "solid proof"... take it from someone who works as a quant/analyst:

Let's label event X: bug occurs

If P(X) is small (probability of X), the likelihood of someone activating this bug is small.
Of course, it will happen, people will trigger bugs, sometimes to their favour, other times to their disadvantage.

But what if a single player disproportionately triggers a certain bug... is this by pure luck? This is often grounds to have someone flagged for an audit/investigation, and in court of law, holds as evidence to convict. Statistically significant is often good enough -- because if you're looking for a confession from ProNeo, or somewhere where he posted "Aha, I am cheating with the rope bug" as the only way to convict him, then you are living in a fantasy world.

CDPR has access to ProNeo's games, and I am sure, given how long they took to respond to this, that they had someone investigate it properly.

Moreover, House of Cards throwing a win over to ProNeo... just randomly? Why? Given that these two players are friends, you think this was by pure coincidence? I agree with you that the couple of videos from Freddy aren't enough for a conviction, but they are enough to cause great suspicion, and we can trust CDPR looked into it.

I hope ProNeo returns after his ban and proves he can win legitimately. I doubt he will, usually people think they're spiting the company by quitting for good... but if that's the case, the integrity of competition is far more important to uphold.

Just my take.
Beregi sebja
 
If you want to say you have a problem with CDPR's decision, fine.

If you'd like to say you want evidence, fine.

Do not accuse others, including CDPR, of lies or falsehoods, or allude to such behaviour here. It's neither Friendly nor Respectful.
 
-proNEO3001 was exploiting the known game bug to receive favorable results in the otherwise lost matches several times during the season.
Without proof of intent, it cannot be said that HE USED the bug. We can say that some of the mmr points he received/retained because of the game bug.

-proNEO3001 was receiving unwarranted victories from the players forfeiting to him with a purpose to improve his position on the ladder.
In his last stream, Proneo said that he contacted CDPR on this issue. CDPR replied: "you can do nothing about it." Can CDPR confirm or deny this?

Determining a person's "intent" is not really possible. That's why it's not really a consideration. Nor is it necessary in a case such as this. Decisions like these are based upon whatever factual evidence can be provided. It's a simple "yes" or "no" concerning each item. If the evidence is there, it's a yes. If not, it's a no. The judgement is made based on that, not trying to prove what's going on in someone else's mind.
That is what I am talking about. Proneo constantly being called cheater, bugabuser and wintrader. However, without proving his intentions this is not fair.

For all calling that there is no evidence of neo breaking rules there are at least 4 clips of him trying to use rope bug (one made by Alessio one by MissLadyJay). Ofc I won't post them here but you can easly find them on reddit. Also I'm pretty sure that they won't convience you because you already made your own "opinion" about this situation and it's like talking to anti vaxxers -> they know better and they are never wrong.
The clips do not contain evidence of intentional use of the bug.

Also it's pretty funny that all (most?) of you who doubt in this ban are from CIS region and was enjoying watching his streams. It really looks like kid mentallity where someone took my favourite toy so now I must hate him.
And here is nothing funny. Proneo speaks Russian. He responded to the accusations in russian. Those who understand russian believed him. He have tried to reply on reddit but his thread was downvoted and banned.

Also I didn't see any word from proneo about this situation after ban. You always keep silent when you are innocent xD
It is not true. Yesterday he had the last stream with explanations.

To CDPR:
I understend: No one owes nothing to nobody. It's your game and your rules.
You have banned Proneo according to your rules. I don't argue with this.
I don't agree with calling ProNeo "known bug abuser", "wintrader" and destroing his reputation. Nobody hears the voice of Proneo in the english-speaking world.
 
That's a very dangerous comparison and it's also flawed. Unfortunately, discussing real-world politics is against the forum rules. So, I cannot delve deeper into this (and, obviously, neither should you).
Hey. That was... Hiperbola. Is this word in English? I didn't want some dusty historical discussions. Just big example. But I understand your point.

Transparency is usually a good thing, but it's not always the best solution. For example, some data cannot be published because of privacy concerns. Maybe other data shouldn't be revealed because it's too technical. There could be legitimate reasons why CDPR doesn't want to disclose any prove, beyond that they are not obligated to do so.

All these demands for prove are based on the assumption that CDPR is playing dirty or being incompetent. I rather give them the benefit of the doubt. They are not like certain companies whose name shall not be mentioned. And to repeat myself, CDPR knows fully well the backlash of this announcement (and the actions taken therein) and still they went forward with it. That alone should really give it some weight; more than just because they felt like making an example.
Look. You raised ProNEO. He participated in tournaments. He participated in the popularization of Gwent. There was message: "Everyone can made this". And: "Play more, play better and you can get to the tournament". Right now it looks like: "Everyone can be banned and we should not give you proofs and you should be grateful, because other companies are even worse".
Not very optimistic.
Ok. You can't give us data. But can you give us some details? How long, how many cases? How can this information ruin your privacy and legal policy? Numbers. Numbers often convince. Of caurse there will be guys dissatisfied with small numbers. But others will understand that was real investigation, not copy Freddybabes cry - paste Refs decision.

All this would not have happened if it were not videos from EU-ProNEO (Freddybabes) and Co. They made this mess with CIS-conspiracy. You showed no reaction. Without all this, this ban would be an internal case. With a tough reaction to unacceptable words, this ban would be an internal case.
Right now it's another level. Words were spoken and they were approved by CDPR silence. It's public case now.
 
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