Concerning GPS and hand-holding

[Pug.]

Meh, I don't mind a little hand holding. I'm there for the story, not to create elaborate hand crafted maps and juggle a compass and graph paper with my controller. If I want the old school feel, I'll go back and play Might and Magic VI.

You have the option to disable the bread crumb dots that lead to your next objective. And the "GPS" doesn't prevent you from setting out on your own and just exploring. I spent dozens of hours just roaming the map uncovering every question mark. By the time I got around to the Isle of Mists, I was already level 28 and had visited every place on the map.

 

[Tuco]

Ugh.. Yep. I guess I really do have to explain this. Ok, I'll tell you another secret: dictionaries contain multiple definitions of many words. And sometimes, people use those alternate definitions to apply the words to specific circumstances, to try and help them better understand things. It's called context.

Heres the 2nd listed definition for organic: characteristic of, pertaining to, or derived from living organisms..

Sure. That's precisely why I chose to quote you the only fitting one, instead of playing dumb and quoting something completely unrelated to our context, as you are doing right there.

And please, for Christ's sake, stop trying to cling so desperately to a senseless rule you are making up ("it's not organic exploration if the place is tied to a quest at some point") as if anyone should accept it as the norm, because it's laughable.

 

[Brogan80]

a senseless rule you are making up as if anyone should accept it as the norm,

Yea, no. I simply agreed with another poster's description of what was lacking in the game. Don't blame me or him just because you didn't understand the concept.

Which it seems you still don't so I guess I'll stop attempting to explain it further. Lesson learned. Carry on, sir.

 

[simonsteele]

I agree with you. GPS and quest markers simply devalue the entire quest design.
The problem here is that the quest structure has been designed from the start with the quest markers in mind ( I mean, Tresure Hunts are ridicoulous, they are not even hunts, just follow the marker). A really bad move, and I hope it will not the same in Cyberpunk..

I agree. I am playing the original Gothic again for the first time in years, and characters actually give you instructions on how to get around and find things. They tell you to look for landmarks. This was a complaint back in the days of Oblivion I had, and I remember friends of mine saying "der, just turn off the compass marker" but I remember the same problem then. You couldn't really. Turning off the compass left you with no idea of where to go.

The problem in Witcher 3 is no one gives you directions sure, but I keep hearing all these "pros" on podcasts saying "you have to play this without the compass and minimap." Oh, do I? Why would I? So I have to keep adding a step of pulling the map up every few seconds. It's not like I have any context of what I'm searching for. This is one area I think all games could improve on.

---------- Updated at 12:24 AM ----------

I think some sort of minimap is required in these type of games. However I dont agree with the little dots that just take out the exploring part. To me a good compromise would be removing the little dots, showing the yellow triangle to where the objective is. Also the npcs should use more cardinal points to explain the way to you, not just "go there near the xxx" assuming Geralt knows perfectly all the places in the game world

---------- Updated at 02:53 PM ----------



It's even easier to implent having npcs say "go west from here until you see something and then you are there" for example

The first Gothic has no minimap. You get real good at navigating. Of course it is a smaller world, but also pulling up the map from time to time isn't so bad. I think no minimap is kind of cool. Gothic doesn't have a compass either which I was kind of mad the Witcher 3 didn't have until I started my Gothic playthrough again. There are ways to immerse yourself in the game if the quests are built in a way to help you. For example, there is a treasure hunt in the Witcher that has you find landmarks as you search. That is how the every quest should be. It would be a lot of work I know. Minimaps and quest markers probably save the devs a huge amount of time.

 

[Costa417]

Minimaps and quest markers probably save the devs a huge amount of time.

I dont think it's about that. I think they made a choice to appeal to all the possible customers since it hugely simplyfy the navigation

 

[Mogsters73]

I hope this trend will end soon, I know little children get scared when they are lost but I think everyone would at some point realize that it's a lot more interesting to look at the game world rather than at an interface, and that 'exploring' is not following a dot but finding things on your own.

Removing the mini map from the UI doesn't help, as Geralt isn't given enough if any information about where to go from the quest givers.

I hope you at CD Projekt Red will in your future games be mindful of how letting players explore on their own can benefit gameplay considerably.


Thank you for your time.

I play without HUD and most other things turned off aswell (except enemy hp cuz I couldnt see lvl)

And I had few or no problems following instructions based on information from quest givers, sometimes I had to check map but its kinda normal to check map when people have pointed out where something happend.

 

[rikj1984]

I agree with what's been mentioned about the writing and the lack of actual directions given by the characters in game...

However I'll take it in a tangential direction and say I'd like to see all Fast Travel/Signposts removed. I mean, if you want to incorporate more exploration and discovery, then they are the biggest deterrents there is. Click, Click, reward.

Were I in charge, I would have put exactly 5 signposts in the entire game: White Orchard, Vizima, Velen, Skellige, and Kaer Morhen. Anywhere else you want to go, you have boats, and a Roach.

Unlike the original topic, this really is optional though. I've played 120 hours without fast traveling other than leaving Vizima and fast traveling to Velen. White Orchard to Vizima was done via a cutscene, as was Novigrad to Skellige. I've never clicked on a signpost to fast travel. Of course, that may be why I am just in Skellige at level 22 after 120 hours with no end to the game in sight, but that's beside the point.

 

[Brogan80]

Unlike the original topic, this really is optional though. I've played 120 hours without fast traveling other than leaving Vizima and fast traveling to Velen. White Orchard to Vizima was done via a cutscene, as was Novigrad to Skellige. I've never clicked on a signpost to fast travel. Of course, that may be why I am just in Skellige at level 22 after 120 hours with no end to the game in sight, but that's beside the point.

Thats impressive. I've had many instances where I made a decision to do the same, but something mundane caused me to break the rule, such as dropping off Florens at the bank in Novigrad. I put that down to OCD, and me wanting to always having an empty 'other' tab after selling loot.

Now, did you actually go into the map and filter out all the signposts as well?

 

[GerardofRiviera]

How is an NPC telling you exactly where to go and how to get there any different than having a gps? I'm sorry, but I like the markers and mini map, I can still explore along the way, and it's not like we have had decades to become familiar with an area like real life.

 

[moonknightgog]

How is an NPC telling you exactly where to go and how to get there any different than having a gps? I'm sorry, but I like the markers and mini map, I can still explore along the way, and it's not like we have had decades to become familiar with an area like real life.

And this is why quest markers should be an option, for people who don't have the time to seriously play an RPG in the way it's meant to be played.
But an option which doesn't compromise the complexity of the quest design.

 

[Tuco]

How is an NPC telling you exactly where to go and how to get there any different than having a gps?

Well, for a start, by forcing you to pay attention and understand what's going on, making your contribution to the game something more than some passive braindead "I have no clue but I must follow the mark".

 

[Brogan80]

for people who don't have the time to seriously play an RPG in the way it's meant to be played.

 

[Christopherrolf]

Imagine you have to climb the terrain to get to a vantage point and overlook the landscape, to find that cave an NPC have told you should lie just south west of the biggest forest on the island of X, close to a rock formation that looks like a bird in flight when viewed from the east, where the trees bear white leaves, at the mouth of a forking river flowing from the northern-most mountain chain. Etc. Something like that, games like Ultima 7 and 8 and Morrowind comes to mind.

Having to survey your surroundings, plan routes, navigate the environment, is stimulating for one's mental faculty and invites players to engage themselves in their surroundings to a much higher degree than when their eyes are mostly fixed somewhere on the interface.

I think these are exploration game truisms but they are doubly true in the case of the Witcher 3, what with its massive, beautiful and realistic-looking landscapes full of natural landmarks, which right now serves mostly as a pretty backdrop.

 

[web-head91]

oh good lord, i knew this would happen v_v.
from the moment they introduced the handholding features, and focused on getting new players into the game, i realised then that this game will be what oblivion/skyrim was for TES series: a game relying on hand-holding too much, that you can't play without it.

i was hoping the quest system would be more like the two previous games, and the gothic series, where you have only indications from NPCs and use your map to reach your destination. but now, they adopted,from what i understand, the "skyrim" approach to quest design: minimum quest description with a GPS where you need to go.
yet, they promissed before we'd be able to play the game without any hand holding features, how eutopic is that. well i guess an other broken promess to add to the pile.

a bit off-topic now:
the same thing happened with the UI and inventory system. the game feels like it was designed with a gamepad in mind that you can't play it otherwise, and the keyboard and mouse was probably slapped to the game at the last minute, hence the inability to change the controls at release, and the clunkyness of the KB/M with the UI and HUD.
add to that the terrible alchemy system, and the simplified dialog options (which started happening since TW2,but whatever).
they also said the witcher sense wouldn't be a hand-holding feature and is to immerse the player more, yet it turned out to be a glorified detective vision.

in short, CDPR focused so much on catering to new players that they forgot about the old fans of the series, which happened with bethesda since TES III: Morrowind.
i love CDPR and their games, not only for their story, but also for their realism,challenge and respect to the lore, and the way the hand-holding features were handled set a worrysome future for Cyberpunk, and other possible upcomming titles.

i really hope they try to fix this sometime in the future. and if not, hopefully some modders would be able to change that with the REDkit2.

---------- Updated at 06:36 PM ----------

Well, for a start, by forcing you to pay attention and understand what's going on, making your contribution to the game something more than some passive braindead "I have no clue but I must follow the mark".

THANK YOU ! someone who gets it !
not only that, but it's also more immersive. something someone with a short concentration span would probably hate it, if not brain dead in certain cases, and i'm talking from what i seen how new gamers play games like skyrim. they just follow the dot,they never even bother with the quest log.

---------- Updated at 06:39 PM ----------

The first Gothic has no minimap. You get real good at navigating. Of course it is a smaller world, but also pulling up the map from time to time isn't so bad. I think no minimap is kind of cool. Gothic doesn't have a compass either which I was kind of mad the Witcher 3 didn't have until I started my Gothic playthrough again. There are ways to immerse yourself in the game if the quests are built in a way to help you. For example, there is a treasure hunt in the Witcher that has you find landmarks as you search. That is how the every quest should be. It would be a lot of work I know. Minimaps and quest markers probably save the devs a huge amount of time.

the second gothic, and gothic 3 also didn't had a mini-map, just a compass ^^
and yes, i fully agree with you on everything ^^

---------- Updated at 06:50 PM ----------

There are quite a few requests over at Nexus Mods for a mod that replaces the mini-map with a compass that has arrows pointing to your objectives.

That, combined with a mod that removes the quest markers on the world map and replaces them with giant yellow circles indicating the region of the world the quest takes place in, would do a lot to alleviate the issue I think. Some of the quest descriptions might need to be edited to make it more clear where to look for your objective, but overall I think it would work well.

interresting. however, wouldn't it be even better to add more text to the quest log ? in fact, it'd be even easier that way for the modders, instead of making what you just described.
i know the NPCs don't always give you clear indications, but it'd be nice to guess where the place you need to go is, by simply asking around, or using a sort of a "guide to the region", which you can use to find the place in question.

 

[Christopherrolf]

Navigation tools in RPGs are much more elegant and less immersion-breaking when they are in-character, like an actual map and a compass the PC can find in the game world.

 

[web-head91]

Navigation tools in RPGs are much more elegant and less immersion-breaking when they are in-character, like an actual map and a compass the PC can find in the game world.

agreed ! kinda like in the gothic series ^^
you start of by having no map at all, or a very old one, then you buy it and buy a compass ^^
wish they would have incorporated it in the game.

 

[KingKnee]

I don't share the high hopes that some people have here, I don't think this game can be "fixed" for the old school crowd.
As I and several others have mentioned already, the loot doesn't reward exploration. You can't go searching for that epic sword rumored to exist in our around Dragon's peak mountain or something like that. Why? Because it will be some level-scaled POS that's probably worse than Witcher gear anyway, there's no point.

I firmly believe that most of the elements were designed with the lowest common denominator in mind, to get as many newcomers as possible into the series. There's nothing wrong with that in itself, I just didn't get my Morrowind exploration itch scratched and I haven't for a long long time.

One thing they could have done to alleviate this problem was to make all the Witcher gear treasure hunts unreferenced. No starting point, no confirmation that these schematics even exist until you find them. Those treasure hunts already have some of the best location designs and very interesting small stories connected to them. They would have been perfect if they had been entirely hidden.

 

[Phinnway]

interresting. however, wouldn't it be even better to add more text to the quest log ? in fact, it'd be even easier that way for the modders, instead of making what you just described.
i know the NPCs don't always give you clear indications, but it'd be nice to guess where the place you need to go is, by simply asking around, or using a sort of a "guide to the region", which you can use to find the place in question.

I don't think it would be easy to add add voice-acting the the NPCs. But I like your idea of adding more dialogue to the quest-log. I've been thinking about this lately, and I think you would need to indicate quest locations relative to visual landmarks. In that sense, our options would be a little limited becaue The Witcher 3 isn't really designed for that kind of navigation. To be specific, there aren't as many landmarks as there should be for that type of system.

Anything that's tall and notceable from a distance could be used as a landmark. A few examples are: The Hangedman's Tree, Crow's Perch, Fyke Isle, Croockback Mountain, Novigrad, Oxenfurt, and Bald Mountain. Additionally, we could replace the map with one that's slightly more stylizard and less of an exact representation of the world. Something like a cross between this and the one we have now would be good. The map I just linked even has a couple names of landmarks we could use.

Overall, I agree with your and @Christopherrolf opinions that in-character navigation systems are better than using the UI. Although I'd still like to replace the mini-map with a compass. Sometimes I forget which direction is North :unsure:

 

[moonknightgog]

I don't share the high hopes that some people have here, I don't think this game can be "fixed" for the old school crowd.

Me neither.
But at least, I can give me feedback, hoping they will take the right way with Cyberpunk.

 

[web-head91]

I don't think it would be easy to add add voice-acting the the NPCs. But I like your idea of adding more dialogue to the quest-log. I've been thinking about this lately, and I think you would need to indicate quest locations relative to visual landmarks. In that sense, our options would be a little limited becaue The Witcher 3 isn't really designed for that kind of navigation. To be specific, there aren't as many landmarks as there should be for that type of system.

Anything that's tall and notceable from a distance could be used as a landmark. A few examples are: The Hangedman's Tree, Crow's Perch, Fyke Isle, Croockback Mountain, Novigrad, Oxenfurt, and Bald Mountain. Additionally, we could replace the map with one that's slightly more stylizard and less of an exact representation of the world. Something like a cross between this and the one we have now would be good. The map I just linked even has a couple names of landmarks we could use.

Overall, I agree with your and @Christopherrolf opinions that in-character navigation systems are better than using the UI. Although I'd still like to replace the mini-map with a compass. Sometimes I forget which direction is North :unsure:

well voice acting isn't really necessary, but when the REDkit2 will be released, we may use recorded dialog from previous games. have the NPC say something short, even if it's in subtitles only. also, if the draw distance wasn't broken (i mean it has to be broken, it's so bad compared other open world games) and didn't have that damn blue fog, finding your way in the area would've been even easier, especially if you got specfic directions to find the place you're looking for.
and yes, i'm all for a new in-game map, kinda like in the gothic series, where you access it as a single item, then have geralt put it in front of him or something, with a compass.
i also made a mod request with the idea i just shared here ^^: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/3015499-mod-requet-better-quest-description-no-quest-markers-gps/