Concerning GPS and hand-holding

[Gerald01]

But that's not particularly relevant now, since Morrowind isn't really harder.
Then again, I always found the way Bethesda designs its RPGs complete garbage from a mechanical standpoint, so I'm admittedly not the most unbiased voice on the matter.

It is relevant because "difficulty" in purely mechanical terms has nothing to do with the issue of "handholding" and "streamlining", so I think Dark Souls is a fitting example for your line of thinking (and why it was not applicable to my reasoning).

Morrowind (as an example) was difficult because it required actual thought etc. etc. (you know the drill) not because fights were necessarily hard or wasn't exploitable.

Modern (action/adventure/)rpg hybrids' difficulty comes down to defeating opponents due to either good fighting style or a good build (both of which optionally made irrelevant thanks the various difficulty settings), following in a passive manner a map from an objective to the next.

Nothing to figure out or "find" at all. That aspect of gameplay is relegated to optional "easter eggs" and completely absent from the gameplay proper.
The tutorial aspect of games has expanded from a specific (usually skippable) first scenario at the beginning to being absorbed by the key mechanics themselves one could say without sounding too far fetched.

Dismissing this as "purist nonsense" is intellectually dishonest, because it's not optional itself, the game are meant and playable only following their blueprint.
I'm sure the overwhelming majority of (offensively)so-called "whiners" would be fine IF the games could be played the old way, with all the hints, maps, POIs, objectives as optional settings.

 

[Brogan80]

I agree with what's been mentioned about the writing and the lack of actual directions given by the characters in game...

However I'll take it in a tangential direction and say I'd like to see all Fast Travel/Signposts removed. I mean, if you want to incorporate more exploration and discovery, then they are the biggest deterrents there is. Click, Click, reward.

Were I in charge, I would have put exactly 5 signposts in the entire game: White Orchard, Vizima, Velen, Skellige, and Kaer Morhen. Anywhere else you want to go, you have boats, and a Roach.

 

[onionshavelayers]

I would prefer if the witcher senses were used in a game mechanic (like in solving puzzles) rather than just a narrative tool (which helps tell the story of what happened when examining an object of interest).

 

[KingKnee]

you can deactivate the hud and minimap and point line to objective in the game settings/options

It doesn't change the fact that this game has very little of what I would call "organic" exploration. Every location is announced to you when you go near it. Every "hidden" treasure is rewarded with a quest complete event. It's exploration for dummies.

Organic exploration is what they had in Morrowind. You'd come across something spectacular but the game wouldn't make a song and dance about it. You wouldn't even know if you missed something great because the game wouldn't reveal that information by changing colors on icons and stuff like W3 does. Morrowind would sometimes give you directions by saying "there's something around here somewhere" and that was the extent of it. (not to mention that it had vertical exploration through levitation as well)

W3 does have a few missable locations and loot(the last accessed map has some for instance) but they stand out as the exception to the rule. Turning off GUI elements does not solve anything when the game was designed with those in mind.

I hope they dial back the dumbing down for Cyperpunk.

 

[Tuco]

It doesn't change the fact that this game has very little of what I would call "organic" exploration. Every location is announced to you when you go near it. Every "hidden" treasure is rewarded with a quest complete event. It's exploration for dummies.

Organic exploration is what they had in Morrowind. You'd come across something spectacular but the game wouldn't make a song and dance about it.

No, I think you are mixing two different topics, here.
First, this thread is about quest design and its occasional flaws, but when it comes to world building and the pleasure of "organic exploration" the game does great in my opinion. There's a lot of complex structures, unique places that are completely optional, non-obvious shortcuts, vertical building, etc.

Second, where the game is maybe a bit underwhelming isn't in offering nice exploration but in compensating it adequately (with unique items, encounters, etc),,. and in that sense Morrowind was arguably even worse (even if not explicitly awful as Oblivion and Skyrim later).

 

[KingKnee]

Pretty sure I'm not. Also, the loot design was terrible in this. Sure it looks good but the stats are boring as all hell because all the interesting effects are tied to concoctions.

This game has very little organic exploration. Everything is connected to a quest with very few exceptions. That a place is optional doesn't make it organic if it's still referenced through a quest line. Organic is completely optional and unreferenced. There are few places like that in W3.

 

[moonknightgog]

This game has very little organic exploration. Everything is connected to a quest with very few exceptions. That a place is optional doesn't make it organic if it's still referenced through a quest line. Organic is completely optional and unreferenced. There are few places like that in W3.

No, organic means exactly that the interesting places are quest related. If there are places just for the sake of exploration, that is simply bad design.
The problem of the exploration is in loot reward, because there aren't unique objects that felt really satisfying in terms of pure aestethic design and stats.
You will never find a good looking and powerful armor exploring the world...and if you find something like that...the item is level related, which means that is useless both when you find it and when you are able to use it.

The level limitation is maybe the worse gameplay mechanic in this game.

 

[Brogan80]

No, organic means exactly that the interesting places are quest related. If there are places just for the sake of exploration, that is simply bad design..

lol I think you need to look up some definitions, son.

KingKnee is spot on.

 

[moonknightgog]

lol I think you need to look up some definitions, son.

KingKnee is spot on.

"Philosophy. having an organization similar in its complexity to that of living things.

characterized by the systematic arrangement of parts; organized; systematic"

Systematic

having, showing, or involving a system, method, or plan:
a systematic course of reading; systematic efforts.
2.
given to or using a system or method; methodical:
a systematic person.
3.
arranged in or comprising an ordered system :
systematic theology.
4.
concerned with classification:
systematic botany.
5.
pertaining to, based on, or in accordance with a system of classification:

 

[Tuco]

Pretty sure I'm not. Also, the loot design was terrible in this. Sure it looks good but the stats are boring as all hell because all the interesting effects are tied to concoctions.

Yeah, well, if you want complain about hte loot in this game you are simply preaching to the choir...
Then again, on the other hand you are also preaching Morrowind, which -like any other Bethesda game- was far more awful in this sense, as itemization has always been complete garbage in any TES since Arena.
At least TW3 has *some* valuable unique loot (Witcher gear) instead of relying entirely on generic random/autoscaled garbage.

This game has very little organic exploration.

Which is completely untrue. You can run, ride, climb, dive and you are almost granted to find a cool place with unique landmarks in any direction you'll move.

Everything is connected to a quest with very few exceptions.

Which at the same time is false and NOT a defect. Hell, if anything I'd wish even some of the random places you can just visit would be more tied to some questline.

That a place is optional doesn't make it organic if it's still referenced through a quest line. Organic is completely optional and unreferenced.

No, that's bullshit. "Organic" means that it's supposed to feel a seamless part of the world, that it blends in, it doesn't feel like a setpiece but real environment..
And when it comes to world/map/layout design TW3 is almost unmatched. The only thing that comes close are Piranha Bytes titles, which on the other hand are in a far inferior league in terms of production value.
The terrain layout is constantly uneven, complex, with a lot of occasional verticality, behind any boulder or bush can be hidden a cave, under any river or pond you can find an entrance to another hidden spot, etc, etc.

 

[Gerald01]

How was Morrowind worse in regards to loot compared to Witcher 3 exactly??

 

[Tuco]

How was Morrowind worse in regards to loot compared to Witcher 3 exactly??

By hardly having any notable unique piece of equipment in the game, relying almost entirely on generic equipment you'll find dozens of times all across the world and custom crafting?

 

[Phinnway]

There are quite a few requests over at Nexus Mods for a mod that replaces the mini-map with a compass that has arrows pointing to your objectives.

That, combined with a mod that removes the quest markers on the world map and replaces them with giant yellow circles indicating the region of the world the quest takes place in, would do a lot to alleviate the issue I think. Some of the quest descriptions might need to be edited to make it more clear where to look for your objective, but overall I think it would work well.

 

[Brogan80]

Organic means it's not part of a systematic design, such as a quest with an intended destination, or an intended destination (ie: a "?" ) on your map.

Not sure how anyone can misunderstand that...

 

[Tuco]

There are quite a few requests over at Nexus Mods for a mod that replaces the mini-map with a compass that has arrows pointing to your objectives.

That, combined with a mod that removes the quest markers on the world map and replaces them with giant yellow circles indicating the region of the world the quest takes place in, would do a lot to alleviate the issue I think. Some of the quest descriptions might need to be edited to make it more clear where to look for your objective, but overall I think it would work well.

That... doesn't sound half bad as a compromise, actually.

Not as good as having better "in-world" indications about where you are supposed to go, which is something that only CDPR could address with future content, but it would be a nice start.

Also, it's my opinion that every time a quest is tied to some "lore text" (a book, a letter and so on) that should be "hotlinked" in your journal, in the quest text itself.

 

[Phinnway]

If we can get enough people interested in a mod like that, we might be able to convince someone to make it. Most of the mod requests on Nexus Mods get buried because there are so many requests.

Also, it's my opinion that every time a quest is tied to some "lore text" (a book, a letter and so on) that should be "hotlinked" in your journal, in the quest text itself.

Good idea.

 

[Tuco]

Organic means it's not part of a systematic design, such as a quest with an intended destination, or an intended destination (ie: a "?" ) on your map.

Not sure how anyone can misunderstand that...

Well, mostly because yours it's an entirely made-up definition which doesn't find any confirmation anywhere.

While mine is actually a proper acceptation of the term:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/organic

5. Constituting an integral part of a whole

 

[Gerald01]

By hardly having any notable unique piece of equipment in the game, relying almost entirely on generic equipment you'll find dozens of times all across the world and custom crafting?

It's fixed leveled, with no level requirement per se. The scarcity of unique items is not an issue, when high level equip is rare itself.

Let's compare it with Witcher 3.. where unique equipment is craftable, and either scalable (wich contradicts uniqueness), abundant, and for the actually unique stuff, such as Witcher gear, level locked, so you cannot possibly obtain it before the game wants you to, and with minimal effort, as it handholds you to find all the gear, minimap POI included.

 

[KingKnee]

Morrowind is not a perfect game, that you can find faults with Morrowind does not make W3 less of exploration for dummies. Also Morrowind did not have worse loot, not by a longshot. Sure, it is uglier and it is samey and it is OLD. W3 doesn't win any points purely because it has 13 years of technology advancements behind it.

Since some are confused by "Organic", let me give you my definition that you're not gonna change:

To explore a location organically.
1. First off, we have to turn off question marks, that itself is a problem in this game because it has HUGE empty areas with 1-3 locations of interest in them. This in itself doesn't reward blind exploration because there's simply little to be discovered compared to land mass. On top of that most of it will be monster nests or not so hidden treasures.
2. The game can not send you there through quests at any point in the game, it doesn't matter if it's a side quest or not, if the game sends you there you did not discover nor explore the place organically.
3. The game can not let you know that you "completed anything". You explored something, you might have found something but that's it. No X marks the spot, no everyone is a winner mechanics. You either found something or you didn't.

If I walk around in a forest and I come upon a tower(NO LOCATION POP UP MESSAGE), I explore the intricate layout of that tower and I find something cool(NO COMPLETION MESSAGE POPUP) AND if the game would never have sent me there on its own, through external means such as other questlines, THEN I explored the place organically.

A good way to tell is if 5 people completed the game thoroughly but each of those 5 players found and explored one or more (interesting) locations that the others did not. In Morrowind that happened all the time, lots of places were well hidden and out of reach. In W3, not so much. Around a week after release the online game guides had every interesting location nailed down.

 

[Tuco]

1. First off, we have to turn off question marks, that itself is a problem in this game because it has HUGE empty areas with 1-3 locations of interest in them. This in itself doesn't reward blind exploration because there's simply little to be discovered compared to land mass. On top of that most of it will be monster nests or not so hidden treasures.

This is the first thing where we are going to massively disagree, as I found what you are describing as "HUGE EMPTY AREAS" as the *required* "quiet times" to make the world breath, to give space between points of interest, lairs, quest locations, etc... finally avoiding that Potato Land syndrome of many games having vastly different shit going on barely two meters apart.

Anyway, it's weird that you mention THIS specific complaint against TW3 compared to Morrowind, because suffering a similar "issue" is exactly what I think made Morrowind SO superior to both Skyrim and Oblivion (well, that *and* having a far more original, inspired, alien setting).

2. The game can not send you there through quests at any point in the game, it doesn't matter if it's a side quest or not, if the game sends you there you did not discover nor explore the place organically.

But you can't make up your rules, that's not what organic means referred to world building. An organic open world means that any part of it fits in and it feels like a real place, it doesn't mean AT ALL that you are never supposed to have anything meaningful there.

But that's not even relevant, because your complaint is false anyway, since there will be almost HALF of the world map in TW3 which isn't really used in any actual quest (which by the way in my opinion is not even a great praise, if anything something that should be resolved with expansions and add ons).

3. The game can not let you know that you "completed anything". You explored something, you might have found something but that's it. No X marks the spot, no everyone is a winner mechanics. You either found something or you didn't.

And we keep going with made-up rules. What you are claiming here is essentially that "it's organic exploration only when it's virtual tourism and nothing actually happens there" (which by the way it's not really that rare in TW3, so once again I'm not sure what you are referring to).

If I walk around in a forest and I come upon a tower(NO LOCATION POP UP MESSAGE), I explore the intricate layout of that tower and I find something cool(NO COMPLETION MESSAGE POPUP) AND if the game would never have sent me there on its own, through external means such as other questlines, THEN I explored the place organically.

So if you turn down "points of interest" notifications by the game options in your opinion everything that isn't a major quest magically turns into "organic exploration" even if somehow it wasn't two minutes before. Got it.