Have you seen combat before E3 presentations? Because that was the first time they showed us how combat looks and works. Those few shots from E3 2013 and VGX trailers could be just cutscenes and not actual gameplay bits.
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Take a look at the screenshot from the debut gameplay, that stance(which I find very nice) is nowhere to be seen, the slash animations and the fluidity of animations in general is totally different from what we saw on the gameplay debut, like when he slashes at the flying sirens with perfect fluidity, it is very disappointing to see that the combat as it is right now is nowhere near the level of fluidity that we were led to believe it would be in the trailers, shadow of mordor looks much more fluid and the animations though a bit exaggerated are imo way less "arcady". To me in particular combat looks terrible, a big downgrade from TW2, but thats just my opinion, not trying to impose it on anyone
Funny you mention that Siren snippet, I have been wondering how they managed to do that ever since the trailer came out, because outside than a cutscene or predefined finisher move or just a predefined action like how Geralt kicked in the footage, that's never going to happen in a lock-on (soft or hard) based combat game during gameplay..... unless they overdesign and reduce it to Assassin's Creed level of combat where there's predefined animations for everything and you're left with nothing to 'play' but just watch animations as they play themselves.
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You mean the one with wolves in it? Watch the 37 minutes gameplay demo around 26 minutes, you can see the stance where Geralt hold his sword at his side, its there for a moment but it chains into next attack.
^
You can also see the stance from the Leshen Shot, it's just Geralt "Parry Stance" which can be seen in any of the bandit encounters from any of the Demos.
Trailers where they specifically state, "In-Game Footage" you should be able to trust that the Graphics will be up to that level. However as for the Gameplay? You're generally looking at little 2 second edits of stuff getting shot/slashed etc, and it's pretty ridiculous to expect it to look exactly like what's shown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0gotQ06I8I
Nothing in GTAV plays like that. All the fancy camera angles and quick edits makes it look way different to how it is when you're actually behind the controller.
That's why Demos exist, and that's why we have a Witcher 3 Demo, and as much as I say 'Each to their own', I cannot fathom how anyone could watch those Demos and actually think the combat looks worse than TW2. They certainly could fuck it up and it might actually play worse than TW2, but judging it off the look of the Demo, it looks improved in just about every way imaginable.
You can also see the stance from the Leshen Shot, it's just Geralt "Parry Stance" which can be seen in any of the bandit encounters from any of the Demos.
Trailers where they specifically state, "In-Game Footage" you should be able to trust that the Graphics will be up to that level. However as for the Gameplay? You're generally looking at little 2 second edits of stuff getting shot/slashed etc, and it's pretty ridiculous to expect it to look exactly like what's shown.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0gotQ06I8I
Nothing in GTAV plays like that. All the fancy camera angles and quick edits makes it look way different to how it is when you're actually behind the controller.
That's why Demos exist, and that's why we have a Witcher 3 Demo, and as much as I say 'Each to their own', I cannot fathom how anyone could watch those Demos and actually think the combat looks worse than TW2. They certainly could fuck it up and it might actually play worse than TW2, but judging it off the look of the Demo, it looks improved in just about every way imaginable.
That's what I'm slowly coming to believe, and it's my personal biggest blow. The thought of fully player controlled combat looking that amazing was what made me believe TW3 will really take sword battles to the next level, in ways that weren't seen before. When that GAF chap wrote "the game as you know it" or some such, what came to my mind were animations, not graphics.
And since this is a sensitive topic lately, I'll clarify that I don't care about the credibility of this guy and whether his words are right or not. Just wanted to demonstrate how "animations" were possibly the first thing that came to my mind when I thought TW3. To each his own. The immediate association of some could be Story, or Open World, or Graphics (as this thread proves), or Choices. Mine were animations.
And thats what angers me about that insider guy. He swooped in, told some vague information about CDPR lying and game being bad, and then he disappeared into the shadows. Now everyone is left with their imagination running wild about what the problems could be. To me it looks like witch hunt for downgrade started and everyone is looking everywhere to find it.
This is what happens when the industry throws downgrades at you constantly, people are on edge and one whiff of possible downgrade makes them go ballistic.
"PS 3 graphics", "PS 2 wolves", "Skyrim graphics", "vapourware" - terms that are thrown around way too carelessly in my opinion, people need to take a step back and not have their entire opinion of a game just completely shattered because of a couple of sub-par screenshots.
I find it funny that four screenshots (of which only 2 keep being brought up) count for more than an entire 35 minute demo nowadays, it just baffles me.
That's not so much a TW3 issue as much the design issue for the entire industry, how to give more control to the player while also not making it unplayable or too complex, add in the problem of the limited actions you can do with a controller(multiplatform) and you have yourself a mess.
You will not have 'natural' looking animations without taking away control and vice versa.
Witcher 2 was a big offender in this regard, it had a very natural looking moveset for Geralt's sword animations(and un-Witchery), except it was really really really bad one of the biggest design issues with the combat and I am glad the Reds have fixed it, animation length was unpredictable you could never tell when Geralt would swing immediately or when he would take a few seconds to do something else or suddenly roll and stab and you were locked into that animation, you couldn't interrupt it.
Another example would be Assassin's Creed 3 and 4, the combat is so strict and rigid and full of lengthy animations that it's more akin to watching a movie and occasionally pressing a button than fighting, it's essentially QTEs. It has really natural looking animations but no control.
I think that when the next batch of screens arrive everything will return to normal.
A certain quote from movie Gladiator comes to my mind regarding this situation: "The mob is fickle, brother. He'll be forgotten in a month."
Was this in response to my post? I'm assuming it is, so I'll clarify on top of the clarification I already wrote: my "imagination running wild" (which isn't the case, but in this thread it's become common to paint people who raise some tone of even minor dissatisfaction\disappointment as overreactions) with what the problems could be has nothing to do with this guy.
Edit: My point in referencing him and his comment was just to demonstrate in what way I associated animations with the game, in that they were the first thing that popped to mind when reading it - regardless of if I think the remark is true or not.
In fact, I think this alleged insider is the worst thing that happened to this thread, because it focused most of the attention on him, rather than people just discussing their own personal impressions by comparing the different footage released. To me the "concerns about the game's quality" encompasses a lot of different things, from a lot of different information shared. The screen shots were just the trigger, but hardly the main point. To me, anyway.
A shame. I think a thread that had some potential about actually discussing the scope vs. what's plausible has turned mostly to comments that either summarize it by needing to have faith, or to dismiss it as forced drama and people just wanting to find things wrong with it.
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well screenshots are supost to be better near to the game lunch not worst, and i understand why people want better graphics in there games, graphics are important, if i wanted to play a good story i would read a book instead of playing video games. the gaming companies need to find balance between lots of factors, graphics should be a no brainier they have to be better.
Nice to hear, but most people who are skeptical will remain skeptical. Just like the Xbone CE "debacle" it just reads like a very typical PR response, and that was really all anyone was ever going to get on this matter.
We're in exactly the same boat as always, which is waiting until February 24th to know how everything will turn out, and I for one am choosing to be hopeful, don't let us down RED's and keep working hard! (Although hopefully not "I want to quit" 80 hour/week crunch hard)
We're in exactly the same boat as always, which is waiting until February 24th to know how everything will turn out, and I for one am choosing to be hopeful, don't let us down RED's and keep working hard! (Although hopefully not "I want to quit" 80 hour/week crunch hard)
Now I'm not one to speak for anyone but myself, but I label this particular incident as "forced drama" mainly because it started and is overall an overreaction. As for the "faith" part, I generally try to steer away from that kind of mentality, and when it comes to CDPR it never was and never will be a case of blind faith for me, it's simply a matter of weighing expectations based on past deeds of the studio.
Even if sometimes I go overboard, but that's what I do, ask my drinking buddies.
Let's go into example territory a bit:
-the studio has been in rougher situations, both financially and tech wise (let's not forget what a handful of guys and gals, stuck in a warehouse in Warsaw were able to pull off with an ancient engine of the likes of Aurora);
-the games always looked janky in places when being demoed in the past, talking about all the Witcher games here and thinking of pretty much any department (animation, graphics, etc.), it is the nature of a game that is very much a work in progress, no surprise there;
-the devs always had bold goals in mind when developing past and present games and the tenacity to see them through in one way or another.
Now, despite/based on the handful of examples I've given above, we've had end products that wowed us and I expect nothing less this time around.
So yeah, a bit of an insight in my train of thought as I move forward.
You express disappointment by the fact that this thread has lost its potential, but that doesn't mean a proper discussion cannot form even after tens of pages of "disappointment". So I'll give it a shot.
"The Insider"(heh)
First I'll start with the infamous "insider" and my thought on the whole matter. Despite whether or not this person's credentials stick or not, he/she didn't actually reveal anything shocking. Game devs are in crunch time and PR people are trying to sell the game, oh and don't pre-order games. Wow. What a revelation. Moving on.
"The curious case of Playstation 2 wolves"
Or to put it in picture form:
Yes, certain aspects of the latest screenshots do look worse compared to material shown in the past. I will not deny that.
A couple of things to keep in mind though:
1. They're screenshots. Often tricky to pull off and in no way representative of how a particular scene would look like in motion, which is what we want obviously. So while screenshots are "cheap" to put out they are also the most deceiving, which can work to the benefit or detriment of the one showing them to the public.
2. Might very well be a case of a poorly chosen section in the game, since all the areas are still WIP. Not to mention the mirroring of two screenshots doesn't do them any service, in fact I think it makes them look somewhat worse.
Now as I've said in the past, while there are some questions that need to be raised after seeing these screenshots, I feel this whole situation has been blown way out of proportion. I'd personally wait for more sub-par material to surface before I deem Witcher 3 a truly downgraded project.
The Witcher 3 is not vapourware. And it does not look like a PS3 game. Cut it out people.
"Welcome to Downwarren. Enjoy your stay."
"Don't mind the drowners."
The 35 minute demo. The most substantial piece of material to date. Looks good overall, some people say it still looks worse than the past screenshots or what we've seen in the SoD trailer.
The obvious thing that comes to mind and I feel it needs mentioning is the fact that this was an ongoing demo. It needs to have a stable framerate in order to look good, we don't want the game freezing mid presentation now do we? Oh and they have to play it with the dev editor running in the background, again cutting down on some of those precious frames.
Now let's take a look at those sexy screenshots, they don't need a stable framerate (duh Kinley, we know). Well, there you go, you crank up those visuals and make them look as good as possible. As for the SoD trailer, ever noticed how footage in that trailer never runs past a limited amount of seconds? I've mentioned it before, it was likely a trick used so they can put out good scenes while not showing that the framerate is complete ass (being the only trailer we have seen in a while and still the only trailer we have seen this year you can see how building a lasting impression would matter).
So yeah, that's how I see it.
"Sword fighting can look pretty too"
And since this post is not only a summary of my thoughts regarding the most recent events but also somewhat a direct reply to @eliharel I'll tackle the issue of animations.
You have mentioned that the big thing that caught your eye in the Debut Witcher 3 trailer were the stunning animations. I agree, they're quite something. Maybe something that was missing from the extended demo. I agree with that too.
But here's what I think happened:
Trailers show fancy combat scenarios, they are sometimes slowed down in places (even if it's not apparent at first glance), so the viewer can savor those masterfully done animations. But they are heavily scripted and just for show I'm afraid. The Debut and SoD trailer were never intended to show actual gameplay. I view it as a tease really, now some are very against it and I don't blame them. I for one don't mind, since I don't base my expectations regarding gameplay from such trailers, I just watch them because they are pretty and hype inducing.
And to close this lengthy post consisting of basically ramblings of one's views, I'd like to invite people to do the same and hopefully I might see a side of the discussion that maybe I missed or got buried in the large number of posts.
But of course let's all do it in a civil and constructive manner.
Thank you.
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That can be read in two ways, no downgrade being a good thing since it means that the game will be as good or better at launch - Or, no downgrade, but no promise of upgrading all versions and spending equal amounts of time and effort on all versions (can lead to preferential treatment of certain versions).
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