Consequences of choosing Yen over Triss, and how Geralt becomes a shadow of himself.

[Redemyr]

thoughts

Thanks for the reply.

I see your points and they could be an explanation to her behavior. The problem lies in the fact that they all require book knowledge and some sort of previous bond with her. For the many people, including myself, they don't exist. The game acts like we already bought the product if you know what I mean. If they added more reactivity in the way we decide their interactions, I believe it could go a long way.

Like the title says, the problem is two sided. Her personality and limited options on Geralt interacts with her. About the first, well, there's not really much to be done on the matter, Yen will be Yen and there's no changing her, for good or ill. And now that I think about it, it's ok to a degree, if they designed her character accurately. We can either like her or not. Except we can't really.

I've no clue how the dynamics between the two worked in the books, if they were so one sided.

The fact remains though, we are not the in books anymore. Whether Geralt enjoyed that kind of interactions or not, that's no longer the only case. Throughout the game, there are literally tons of dialogues where we get to set the tone, ranging from that advertised scene in the bar, where you can drink with baron's men or tell them to fuck off, to your talks with the baron, to your interactions with Triss, Keira, Sigi. I could go on but you get the idea. Yet when it comes to Yennefer we're forced to roleplay a lovesick puppy.

Why can't there be an option to tell her to fuck off during the theft attempt, go find Ermion ourselves and then find her fighting the golem on her own. She would be pissed off course, and I'm pretty sure there would no unicorns waiting at the end of that tunnel, but we got a say in the matter at least.

What's more, let's suppose we chose to go along with her plan. She again goes and does her stuff while we argue with the druid. And after the mask stuff is finished, there is no option to really tell her we thought her actions were wrong. We either defend her or just say "no harm was done."

Small bits would help here and there too. For example, on the way to the gardens there's the banter about how she could be nicer, and then yen answers then I wouldn't be the woman you fell for or something like that. Geralt could say something on the lines of "Don't be so sure about that"

Moving on to more general personality stuff, dealing with adversity doesn't justify bad behavior, in fact, it is how you deal with adversity that defines you as a person. Everybody can be nice when things are going well after all.

To finish this, and this is just speculation on my side, I'm assuming that when Geralt learns in the books about her issues, she shows her vulnerable side and thus the reader in that case feels empathy towards her. Again, never shown in the game (except if you reject her in the last wish)

A solution to this problem, or at least a way to mitigate this fact, is using the elements already in the game, namely her using necromancy, and Geralt statement that "it never ends well" to sort of causing her to be "cursed", like having constant nightmares because she was possessed or similar. I'm not sure if something like this can happen within the bounds of magic of the Geralunivese or even if said bounds actually exist in the first place.

But it would serve two purposes. First she'll be shown as finally paying for doing something wrong even if her motives were good. Some sort of C&C for her, because as it stands, she literally gets away with everything. Sure the priestess are mad, but Yen's mind is already on breaking the wish and going to KM afterwards.
Second, and this could be an some sort of side quest, Geralt could help her through her quest to "undo" the curse and that could somehow getting into her mind, allowing us, the players, a chance to see the issues you mentioned earlier.

Not sure if this will make us like her or not, but at least, we'll get a chance to understand her.

 

[Zeroscape]

@Redemyr

Those are all good points that you raise there and some cool suggestions.

You're especially right about this not being the book universe. I've been thinking about this recently, especially when I've been posting about the Empress ending of the game and Ciri, but it most certainly applies to Yen as well. It's kind of like Witcher 3 is a slightly altered parallel universe.

Little things are different (Yen's attitude towards Geralt, Nilfgaard slightly less extreme, Radovid bonkers) and other things are missing (second part of Ithlinne's Prophesy) so things work differently. I think for us book readers it's a little tricky because so much is the same that we're obviously filling in missing pieces based on what we know, when it may not actually be applicable. It's as if your best friend is suddenly just an acquaintance and he doesn't remember all the things you guys did together, yet you do.

Narrative compromises that do make talking about characters difficult.

The coolest thing about Yen is how differently she responds to Geralt based on what he says. Being nice to her is actually really boring and offering resistance shows some really funny banter between them. Expanding those opportunities, like you suggest would've been perfect for her character because you could then see more sides of her somewhat complicated nature and get a better handle on her in the short time you have in the game.

Certainly, a way for Geralt to stand up to her in a bigger way would've been nice for people that want to offer proper resistance, but the writers did shackle him somewhat strongly either because of book lore, or that they were trying to make a point that she has wrapped him around her finger. Think it's more the latter, just like how Yen's zeal is turned up to 11 simply for effect.

I've written a post about this weird split between the books and games over here;
http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threads/47140-Their-own-story-or-a-conclusion-to-the-books-SPOILERS?p=1763077#post1763077

Yen is just an extremely polarizing figure, so it would've been good to see more sides of her. Best way to do that would be to allow Geralt to influence the action with her in more substantial ways. Alternatively, doing something important together later in the game post-Last Wish without her shields up would've done wonders too. At that point in the game, the scenes are mostly minor or short though.

 

[Anima38]

Well i understand the necessity of some threads Yen vs Triss because it's one of the biggest choices we have in the game, i understand that Triss have a little less content than Yen and i even voted for more Triss. What i don't understand is why in this thread poll you put "i choose Yen even after all the stuff she does" and you forgot that Triss is no better, and i don't want to write here all the crap stuff that she does in the games (i am not talking about the books because some people did not read them and they will never do), so why not be fair mate and put "i choose Triss even after all the lies and stuff she does". There is another thread where some of the Triss fans ask the dev to let them kill Yennefer, and i am sure soon we will see some threads where they want Yen to be removed from the game because they do not care about the story or anything, they just want a Triss Merigold game and that's it. I will not vote on this poll because it's crap and ofc this is only my humble opinion about it.

 

[TheMorbidAtheist]

I think you are underestimating the players. 1) There many people who actually read the books and always wanted Yennefer in the games 2)There are people who only played TW3 and thus may have preferred Yen from the start 3) This forum is not a representative of the whole fandom. On facebook/reddit etc the 'Triss vs.Yen' contest is pretty much 50/50.

Ahem
1. Most players haven't read a single Witcher book and never will.

2. For most players, TW3 would be the only Witcher game they have played

3. Yeah, reddit/Facebook Triss v. Yennifer debates aren't, for the most part, done by players who loved the Witcher before it was cool. I've read some clueless twitter comments on the third game and it almost made me vomit - most people have no clue about the background of the game they claim to love so much. And how many men do you think end up picking Triss over Yennifer because they prefer redheads to brunettes and vice versa?

My best friend loves the Witcher games; he hasn't read a single book, he doesn't know a thing about what's in the books. When he lifted Uma's curse, he told me that it was "some elf".... The guy knew nothing about Avallach and who he was... To him it was just "some elf". Same goes for Djikstra, Keira Metz, Ehmyr and others.

 

[xxgwxx]

Ahem
1. Most players haven't read a single Witcher book and never will.

2. For most players, TW3 would be the only Witcher game they have played

3. Yeah, reddit/Facebook Triss v. Yennifer debates aren't, for the most part, done by players who loved the Witcher before it was cool. I've read some clueless twitter comments on the third game and it almost made me vomit - most people have no clue about the background of the game they claim to love so much. And how many men do you think end up picking Triss over Yennifer because they prefer redheads to brunettes and vice versa?

Ahem. "The Last Wish" (1st novel) just became a NYT bestseller (a few days ago). Of course it doesn't mean that suddenly millions of people will read the books, but you can clearly see that the popularity of the game does influence the popularity of the saga (another example GoT and ASOIAF) . But the books were pretty popular in Europe even before the games anyway.

And yes, I would agree that most players choose the romance option basing their decisions on such 'deep' aspects like female's hair color or/and the size of her boobs.

 

[keldrath]

I didn't have a problem with what was done with Yen on skellige, stealing the mask, causing the storm, even destroying the garden. None of them felt out of place or wrong to me, and I supported and went with Yennefer the entire way.

Sure to an outsider it might look like bad things to do, but given the context of the character, those are exactly the kinds of things Geralt and Yennefer *would* have done. Which Is why I went straight along with it, instead of trying to moralize with Yennefer or get out of it somehow.

Ciri is a person they would both go to hell and back for, damn the consequences. So it felt perfectly in character, for both of them to do that.

And I didn't think less of either of them for their dedication and love for their family.

She's very family oriented, not an idealist like Triss, trying to solve the worlds problems and make it a better place. Sure some people might like that more, but it doesn't fit the Geralt I know, he was never a knight in shining armor trying to solve the worlds problems. He was a family man, who cared deeply about his friends, and above all, Ciri.

 

[Dibre]

Well i understand the necessity of some threads Yen vs Triss because it's one of the biggest choices we have in the game, i understand that Triss have a little less content than Yen and i even voted for more Triss. What i don't understand is why in this thread poll you put "i choose Yen even after all the stuff she does" and you forgot that Triss is no better, and i don't want to write here all the crap stuff that she does in the games (i am not talking about the books because some people did not read them and they will never do), so why not be fair mate and put "i choose Triss even after all the lies and stuff she does". There is another thread where some of the Triss fans ask the dev to let them kill Yennefer, and i am sure soon we will see some threads where they want Yen to be removed from the game because they do not care about the story or anything, they just want a Triss Merigold game and that's it. I will not vote on this poll because it's crap and ofc this is only my humble opinion about it.

Triss Merigold Date Sim, yesssss yesssssss!

 

[Vargeras]

He was a family man

You could say he took the advise from Guile

 

[sidv88]

She's very family oriented, not an idealist like Triss, trying to solve the worlds problems and make it a better place. Sure some people might like that more, but it doesn't fit the Geralt I know, he was never a knight in shining armor trying to solve the worlds problems. He was a family man, who cared deeply about his friends, and above all, Ciri.

Well, Geralt did die trying to prevent the Rivian pogrom, when he could have walked away.

Spoiler

It's almost like the whole bit in the game where Dijkstra turns on Roche. Geralt doesn't want to get involved in politics, but he can make a decision to not let Roche, Ves and Thaler die that ends up getting him into politics anyway. I'm still trying to figure out which choice would be more "book" Geralt, but since this quest doesn't even come up unless Geralt assassinates Radovid, the whole point might be moot. (It's unclear if book Geralt would have gone for taking down Radovid).

Geralt did become more of a family man after Ciri entered his life. However, even the Witcheress ending for Ciri slideshow makes it clear she kind of goes to do her own thing after Geralt finishes her Witcher training. Yen and Geralt weren't acting like family before Ciri was around. He ran out on her in Vengerburg and left her distraught for years, and then there was that whole business with Istredd that kept them apart until Geralt finally wrote to her to ask her help in training Ciri. (And he actually asked Triss for help first, until she honestly said Yen would be better for the job).

I know a lot of people think Yen is the only one for Geralt and I can see that point of view, but I don't think Geralt himself was thinking that when he ran out on Yen in Vengerburg. If he was cheating on Yen with others at the time, perhaps he himself was finding something wanting in his relationship with Yen (that does not excuse his actions at all of course). I always felt when reading the books that he did want out at that time, and he should have just said so instead of running out or cheating.

Ciri brought them together in the later books. But Ciri will be grown and being a Witcheress/Empress/Time Lady traveling with Dr. Who or whatever. Hopefully a Geralt living with Yen post-TW3 can keep things stable and not relapse into the same issues they had before Ciri came along.

 

[Dude27]

Topic starter is a biased mind, trying to embed his own point into mind of others.

Nice survey btw, looks like
Do you like pain?
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Sort of

If not Yennefer, Geralt could've been probably dead. She sacrificed her life, trying to save him. Geralt was the one, who made a wish to stay with Yen forever. He loved her.
YES she is a person who cares about her loved ones, about her friends. She achieves her goals, even if it requires to kill a bunch of peasants. This isn't evil, this isn't bad. There are real peoplie like that, and I know some. And I respect them.

 

[Dibre]

On Yen's deffense, she didn't steal the mask, she borrowed.

 

[Frybread]

"I chose Yen, even after all the stuff she does." LOL, nice question.

How about you rephrase the Triss question in the same light? "I chose Triss, even after all the stuff she does." Because, you know, even though she seems sweet and nice, she sleeps with a friend's man while he has amnesia and meekly goes along with the Lodge in its assassination of some of the Northern monarchs and its bid for world domination.

 

[Dude27]

Ahem
1. Most players haven't read a single Witcher book and never will.

2. For most players, TW3 would be the only Witcher game they have played

3. Yeah, reddit/Facebook Triss v. Yennifer debates aren't, for the most part, done by players who loved the Witcher before it was cool. I've read some clueless twitter comments on the third game and it almost made me vomit - most people have no clue about the background of the game they claim to love so much. And how many men do you think end up picking Triss over Yennifer because they prefer redheads to brunettes and vice versa?

My best friend loves the Witcher games; he hasn't read a single book, he doesn't know a thing about what's in the books. When he lifted Uma's curse, he told me that it was "some elf".... The guy knew nothing about Avallach and who he was... To him it was just "some elf". Same goes for Djikstra, Keira Metz, Ehmyr and others.

Damn right! So much this.

Im more than sure people prefer Triss simply because she was present in W1 and W2 (and that "bath" scene in w2, that is more memorable, than the fact Triss was involved in the plot with the Lodge, or the fact she abused Geralt's amnesia).

And then a random sorceress appears and they were like "Yennefer? Who the hell is that?. Baah, get lost"

I'm not trying to make Triss bad or evil. She confessed to Geralt by the way.
Just Triss is Triss, and Yen is Yen. There is no evil or bad, just different character.

 

[TheMorbidAtheist]

Ahem. "The Last Wish" (1st novel) just became a NYT bestseller (a few days ago). Of course it doesn't mean that suddenly millions of people will read the books, but you can clearly see that the popularity of the game does influence the popularity of the saga (another example GoT and ASOIAF) . But the books were pretty popular in Europe even before the games anyway.

And yes, I would agree that most players choose the romance option basing their decisions on such 'deep' aspects like female's hair color or/and the size of her boobs.

I never said the popularity of the game didn't influence the book saga, what I said was that most players went into the Witcher series starting with the third game. Few bothered to do any research about what the universe was all about - and it clearly shows with each YouTube video, with each "let's play" streaming, with each review, where the reviewer says "I've never played the first or second games" or "I couldn't get into the first and/or second games" - that is when I stop reading their article by the way...

 

[xxgwxx]

"I couldn't get into the first and/or second games" - that is when I stop reading their article by the way...

Personally I don't see anything wrong in such attitude. TW3 was intentionally made suitable for people who have never played TW1&2...

 

[TheMorbidAtheist]

Personally I don't see anything wrong in such attitude. TW3 was intentionally made suitable for people who have never played TW1&2...

Well, I'm not scolding them by shaking my pointy finger at them. I simply honestly don't care for their opinion because they didn't play the first two games for one reason or another and/or they know little about the background of the saga. They have contributed nothing to making the series what it is today.

And yes, the third game has been made more suitable for newcomers, while it was the fans who bought and played the first two games years ago which in turn helped CDPR have the means to make the second and third games and not go bankrupt.

 

[keldrath]

Well, I'm not scolding them by shaking my pointy finger at them. I simply honestly don't care for their opinion. They have contributed nothing to making the series what it is today.

And yes, the third game has been made more suitable for newcomers, while it was the fans who bought and played the first two games years ago which in turn helped CDPR have the means to make the second and third games and not go bankrupt.

Different points of view can be interesting. Nothing wrong with hearing the opinions of someone who has no prior experience with the lore. I likely wouldn't agree with them, as their conclusions wouldn't be backed up by much, but it can be interesting to see what kind of conclusions and opinions they've formed based on the limited information they have.

 

[TheMorbidAtheist]

Different points of view can be interesting. Nothing wrong with hearing the opinions of someone who has no prior experience with the lore. I likely wouldn't agree with them, as their conclusions wouldn't be backed up by much, but it can be interesting to see what kind of conclusions and opinions they've formed based on the limited information they have.

Again, you are the second person to say that its not "wrong" to hear their opinion. I am not saying it is wrong to hear their opinion, I just don't care for it.

 

[Zeroscape]

And yes, the third game has been made more suitable for newcomers, while it was the fans who bought and played the first two games years ago which in turn helped CDPR have the means to make the second and third games and not go bankrupt.

How is that surprising though? CDPR wanted to get bigger returns for their investment so Witcher 3 is cross platform and friendly to newcomers. This allows them to go bigger in the future with Cyberpunk and whatever other projects they are considering. It makes good business sense no matter how you look at it.

I'm pretty sure CDPR has given fans enough in return to warrant a little bit of understanding from us. Is it ideal? No, but it is acceptable since we have places like these to voice our issues. We shall see to what extent they take them on-board.

Again, you are the second person to say that its not "wrong" to hear their opinion. I am not saying it is wrong to hear their opinion, I just don't care for it.

Valid opinion, but counter-productive for CDPR. They need to hear feedback from all their player groups and that includes book readers and complete greenhorns. Best thing to do is to say your piece and trust that the devs take that feedback on-board.

 

[Goodmongo]

I am a complete Triss supported but that poll is completely biased. You use negative connotations with Yen and positive ones with Triss. You might as well just used these:

1) I choose Triss because she has a good soul and treats me as an equal.
2) I would choose Triss but there isn't enough content so I'm forced against my will to pick Yen.
3) I choose Yen even if she is everything that's wrong with a person.

yes mine are blatant but your choices still have the same TYPE of bias.