Controversy in gaming

[dragonbird]

Also, how is that even offensive for women? You'd have to think all women are "hoes" to take it as an insult. It's fair to say that the "hoe" bit in this case was meant for the Fury boss fight and not everyone in general.

Was the Fury boss a whore, as in someone who provides sex for payment? If not, then the developers are saying that she was a whore simply because she was female. Of course that's offensive (and changing the spelling doesn't make it any less so).

Regarding showing rape, I think we're in agreement - I took this topic as being a general discussion about where the boundaries on controversy lie. As Layne101 says, the developers can't rely on the minority who are OK with it as their sole customers. But I don't see the "unfortunately" in that sentence.

 

[Garrison72]

God of War is a pathetic example of pandering. I'm not easily offended but that 'bros before hoes' shit makes me want to bitch slap the devs. Really? Do they realize your average gamer is like 34 now?

 

[Sunder]

Do you realize their targeted audience is younger than 34?

 

[Garrison72]

Do you realize their targeted audience is younger than 34?

For the makers of God of War? That much is clear. And the name of the achievement was nothing more than an immature frat boy bumping of fists, therein lies my complaint with it.

 

[Sunder]

For the makers of God of War? That much is clear. And the name of the achievement was nothing more than an immature frat boy bumping of fists, therein lies my complaint with it.

Yes, it was. But it was their call to put it in the game. Obviously, it's not going to meet everyone's approval.

 

[dragonbird]

And it isn't censorship. There was no issue of "artistic integrity" or anybody stepping in and saying "remove it or else...", they simply decided that it would be better for sales if they changed it. It's also possible that they only included it in the first place for the publicity value, and always intended to back down.

 

[227]

Was the Fury boss a whore, as in someone who provides sex for payment? If not, then the developers are saying that she was a whore simply because she was female. Of course that's offensive (and changing the spelling doesn't make it any less so).

It could be argued that "bros before hoes" has become such a familiar phrase that it actually transcends the literal meaning of the words, and including something like that is more a wink to our weird little collective culture than anything apposite to what was happening in the game. I've certainly heard enough women use the phrase to where one would think it's reached that point of generality.

If not, then at least we can all be glad that we live in a world where douchebags are so willing to out themselves as such.

 

[gregski]

Regarding rape scenes being portrayed in entertainment media...did anyone here watch "Irreversible"?

[video=youtube;OU-ZOHeWLkU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU-ZOHeWLkU[/video]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290673/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

 

[Garrison72]

Yes. My initial impression was it went too far, that the whole movie revolved around that one scene. Still not sure about it. It's not like the director was going for pure sensationalism..but damn.

 

[Decatonkeil]

I'm not interested in the new TR game, now playing the classic 3 of the GOG pack. I've been reading about this rape/ no rape issue on blogs and these "gamers" commenting on THOSE BLOGS (in spanish, sorry) are not being mature about it. So, I haven't played the game so maybe I'll need a little clarification on these hypotheses I'm going to put on the table (and I would like you to think them through, not to just discard them because I haven't played/payed for the game):

1. So apparently there's this QTE moment rather early in the game where Lara is a victim to a supposed rape attempt. If you fail it, the guy snaps Lara's neck, game over, that's all. People were enraged that they didn't make it a rape scene, whether having it fade to black or visible... then what? Would the outcome of this also be a game over? Would it tie into Lara being killed post rape? Would she be rendered unable to fight any further because she was raped? Would we be able to play the rest of the game after being raped? People aren't thinking this through!

2. I'm a regular watcher of Linkara's Atop the Fourth Wall. The guy considers himself a feminist and usually denounces lazy if not misogynistic writing with the edgy trend of having every female character be a rape victim. Some writers do write rape scenes to demean a characters, some because they don't know how to make strong female characters, where the strength of a woman can lie if they don't attribute her traditionaly male-role attributes and showing a complete inability to make them rounded characters. There's also this vision in all cultures that a raped woman is "broken goods", which might tie in in the inability to progress in the game after being raped (hypothetical scenario). Some fans of the classic TR games might even be enraged and shout "Lara is not a rape victim, what have you done to her?", I deviate a little from this and prefer to say "does she... NO, does every female character in an action production need to be a rape victim?".

Overall for what gameplay I have seen I think they've missed the mark big time in how a videogame can do storytelling with the way they "balanced" the "vulnerable" and violent aspects of the game.

 

[SpaceCadet519]

Are games ready to tackle mature themes? I don’t mean violence or murder (they’ve got that down to a tee), I mean things like hard drug addiction, rape, sexual abuse or psychological disorders.

Absolutely. These are all things we have to deal with in reality, so there is no reason to shy away from such themes in games. If anything, adding controversial themes makes games more interesting while censoring them makes games / movies / books seem bland.

The early simpsons episodes (up until the last few years) were imo fantastic because they included real issues we could relate to. Granted, they weren't as dark as the themes you mention, but they still dealt with some serious issues - and this game is intented to be much darker.

Personally I loved the moral ambiguity of the witcher series. Instead of the veeeery tired "good / evil" system, things just were, and it was up to us to decide what we thought about them.

So whats your opinion about controversy in games?

All for. Controversy stirs up emotions and makes things interesting. Removing difficult choices makes games bland.

 

[layne101]

As Layne101 says, the developers can't rely on the minority who are OK with it as their sole customers. But I don't see the "unfortunately" in that sentence.

i'm okay with rape being implied, and not completely ignored. unfortunately, the majority of people cant think for themselves and will be convinced that something like that is the ultimate ethical degradation

 

[sinisterhulk]

I couldn't read the whole thread, but still...

I think that you can have mature game without a controversy, but you shouldn't develop a game - controversial topics included - without a maturity involved.
Let me explain my point:
You're exploring city in game and in some back alley you encounter rape scene. One guy's holding beaten girl with ripped dress so you (player) can see breasts. That's controversial, no doubt.
Now, about the ways to deal with it:
1) Guys attack as soon as they spot player. You have to kill them. Situation is saved, and PR bullshit would be like they're enforcing people to deal with this mature way. Which is not true. That's some Fallout 3 childish maturity dimension (go to the cannibal-incest village to see what I mean).
2) Guy who's about to rape girl turns around and you see that he's the head of the company that sends you paychecks. You can tell he's on coke. Now, really mature approach would be that player needs to think about consequences which will inevitably follow. Can you take care of two guys, both probably on coke? Do you believe in your three-times-a-week gym sessions that much? That shithead probably has some powerful friends... Also, he might blackmail the girl (if she even remembers something important next morning). Chances are, that he might bribe the cops. Sure thing is that after few months, you'll be fired because it's so shameful thing about company, that they have to get rid of you as the proof. After things get quiet.
Really mature game would keep giving you message that all that might and probably will happen. Now decide. Because you're mature. Adult. Meaning of 'adult' is pretty much ability to think of and face consequences.
Mature people don't live in fairy tales. Even if some writers want us to believe it.

 

[sonicspeedx13]

there have been some games have already tackled many mature and controversial themes, The Metal Gear Solid series for example tackles many mature themes dealing with nukes, deterrents, child soldiers, POW camps, even the topic of there being no true absolute enemy. These topics have been brought up many times and various other things that, while looked at in other entertainment, are given a rather different light in Metal Gear Solid series that are almost given a more mature feel to it all, and it just seems it might just keep introducing more mature and controversial topics by what the creator said about the new MGS game

on another note dealing with MGS and it using it being a game to full advantage by there being a person controlling a character by breaking the forth wall in many cases, using the PC as a medium for other characters to talk right to the player and not just for comedy but for even serious events as well. Like at the ending scene of Metal gear solid 2 the whole ending could be one huge forth wall breaking talking to the player instead of just talking to Raiden. It can also and give an illusion that YOU are the character even if you do not have complete control over all the things that happen around (a topic that was heavily talked about in MGS2 even). By characters breaking the forth wall it gives the player more emotion into what is going on around them in the game at times.

 

[braindancer12]

For example Hideo Kojima said that the new Metal Gear Solid V will be mature and controversial:

“I’m going to be treading a lot of taboos, and a lot of mature themes that really are quite risky.”

“Honestly, I’m not even sure if I’ll be able to release the game. Even if I did release the game, maybe it wouldn’t sell because it’s all too much. But as a creator I want to take that risk. As a producer it’s my job to try and sell the game, but I’m approaching this project from the point of view as a creator. I’m prioritising creativity over sales.”

 

[dekkarius]

Besides, the whole "issue" is hilarious. "Potential, off-screen, rape scenes are bad but now go and shoot those fifty guys ahead in their balls and watch them squirm". Truly, an amazing delusion.

Exactly this. We should embrace controversy especially in a world that is, by design, full of it. A cyberpunk world is built upon controversial topics getting out of hand. If a game on this premise that is dark, gritty, and an expression of contemporary issues through the lens of CP2077, then to abandon controversy is to destroy the philosophical basis of cyberpunk and this game. The devs already said they intended to deal with contemporary issues in this game. I'm not saying we should emphasize potentially offensive content wherever we can, but I'm saying that if we can't have it here, to bring light to these issues (which is why the authors of the cyberpunk movement ever wrote of a dystopia to begin with) then it would actually be more ignorant, less edgy, remove difficult choices, and damage the immersion of a dark world.

 

[Sydanyo]

Snap poll: Do you say con-TRO-versy or CON-troversy?

Back on topic... These days it seems nothing should be discussed, and trying not to start nation bashing, there seem to be at least one or a couple western worlds leading this "this isn't the time to talk about it" -movement. This goes hand in hand with the same people trying to ban certain things from entertainment, such as sex, drugs and violence obviously, as well as views proposing certain politics or religions, or for example certain business practices. These people go as far as to remove information from school books and replace it with disinformation and misinformation, stuff that conforms with their uncontroversial and politically correct world view.

I'm just happy that game developers as well as movie and television producers haven't yet bowed down to these forces, and I for am hoping they never will.

 

[braindancer12]

Exactly this. We should embrace controversy especially in a world that is, by design, full of it. A cyberpunk world is built upon controversial topics getting out of hand. If a game on this premise that is dark, gritty, and an expression of contemporary issues through the lens of CP2077, then to abandon controversy is to destroy the philosophical basis of cyberpunk and this game. The devs already said they intended to deal with contemporary issues in this game. I'm not saying we should emphasize potentially offensive content wherever we can, but I'm saying that if we can't have it here, to bring light to these issues (which is why the authors of the cyberpunk movement ever wrote of a dystopia to begin with) then it would actually be more ignorant, less edgy, remove difficult choices, and damage the immersion of a dark world.

totally right

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Con-Troversy.

My opinion on controvesial game content is that of it makes for a better game/story, put it in. Sod other peoples opinions. The world is too worried about potentially offending people, (and the vast majority of people who are actually offended usually have nothing to do with those who would have been offended.)

Example 1:
A few years ago while I was working as a bouncer I often made the "Black man time" joke when I was running late or if a colleague was late. Usually my colleagues were black, (as I was sort of a token white guy in the firm,) and they found it hilarious.
The one person who complained was a white guy from a different firm I worked who was doing a shift for my boss as a favour.

Example 2:
I often worked at gay venues and now and again I made a few gay jokes towards venue staff, (and they knew they could make straight jokes at me,) yet the only people that ever complained about them to the manager were straight. (I admit a couple of gay guys did come to me saying that they were offended, but they were fine about it when I explained that it was just a joke and that they could call me a "breeder" or whatever and I had no problem taking what I gave out.)

Moral of the story: there are just too many people that act like they want to be offended. So fuck 'em. Let them be offended.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Worse. medium. ever. to do want you want to do.

Better to write a book and have plenty of research to back it up...