Cool = Charisma???

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Don't know what it does in 2077, but this is the description I found of 2020.

COOL (CL):
This index measures how well the character stands up to stress, pressure, physical pain and/or torture. In determining your willingness to fight on despite wounds or your fighting ability under fire, Cool (CL) is essential. It is also the measure of how "together" your character is and how tough he appears to others.
 
No it does not equal charisma. https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/06/14/e3-2018-cyberpunk-2077-has-a-cool-stat-heres-what-it-does

But what does the Cool stat actually do? Cyberpunk 2020 creator Mike Pondsmith tells me it’s not just about how cool your character is, but also how well they can keep cool under pressure.

“Most gun fights end because someone loses it and can't keep it together,” Pondsmith said, which he learned from speaking with a friend in the Rangers. “I wanted to get that sense of you project that you're together, you can keep it together.”

He went on to explain that “everything you've got is a statement,” and that while style is still important, how you carry yourself is too. “You’re wearing your big-ass armored jacket and you’re carrying your big-ass weapons, but it’s not just that. It’s that you looked badass doing it, and that people give you some respect on the street.”

Pondsmith also said that Cool isn’t just the Cyberpunk version of the more traditional RPG stat Charisma. “You can have a tremendous amount of cool and have very little charisma,” Pondsmith explained. Basically, there’s a difference between talking your way out of situations and just throwing off a vibe that commands respect.

As for Cool in Cyberpunk 2077, Pondsmith likened it to how CD Projekt has also adapted 2020’s Lifepath system. “They are all things that basically and subtly influence how people will see and perceive your character.”

Pondsmith says he believes it will also influence dialogue options, but didn’t share specific details on that. He spoke about the idea that people who might otherwise draw weapons on you when you walk in the door would not want to mess with a particularly cool character.

It's more like a willpower stat, with some effect on the way you are perceived as well. Think of it as "she's able to keep her cool" not "man that gal sure is cool!" At least that's how it sounds to me.
 
Don't know what it does in 2077, but this is the description I found of 2020.

Yup, but there are also stats missing, so it's highly possible that Cool have been merged with Attractiveness and Empathy.
Well, at least I hope so, because is not then the game have been seriously dumbed down.
 
Well, at least I hope so, because is not then the game have been seriously dumbed down.
If I had to guess, I think persuasion & charisma abilities are more likely under skills or perks than stats. I doubt cool is "cool + empathy + attractiveness". Attractiveness as a stat doesn't make a ton of sense when the player can customize the look of the character themselves.

Empathy could have been a stat (it's frankly the only one I was surprised didn't make the cut), but it seems like a lot of the elements that were effected by empathy are now going to be covered by choices & consequence system, street cred notoriety, style choices, humanity cost and possible perks or skills (as mentioned above). At least that's the way it looks to me.
 
As others have said, "Cool" is essentially "willpower" and in the PnP is used to determine how well characters react to surprise situations and when the pressure in on. Needless to say in an FPS you really can't have that because it's all about the player not the character, so the mere fact that it's in the game gives me hope.

I agree with @Rawls that "Attractiveness" is pointless in a game where you can customize your appearance; besides it's an EXTREMELY subjective trait. As to "Charisma" since the game uses a dialog system that will primarily determine how NPCs react to the character what's the point of "Charisma"?
 
"Attractiveness" is pointless in a game where you can customize your appearance

I don't think it's pointless.

From what we've seen, it would seem that you can't create a swampmonster during the character creation to whom high ATTR would be completely out of place.

(For a sidenote, it's really nice that all the social stats were left out... and are now deemed pointless. Just the way as it should be... right?)
 
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If I had to guess, I think persuasion & charisma abilities are more likely under skills or perks than stats.

Well I think it's lame, cause it means that in this game combats are more important than talk.

I doubt cool is "cool + empathy + attractiveness". Attractiveness as a stat doesn't make a ton of sense when the player can customize the look of the character themselves.

Going there same could be told about other physical stats.
And don't forget that max stats should be different for Male V and Female V if I look at the different world records and other sport exploits.
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As to "Charisma" since the game uses a dialog system that will primarily determine how NPCs react to the character what's the point of "Charisma"?

Because two people saying exactly the same things to you won't always have the same response, that's what Empathy (and Attractiveness) are for.
 
If it helps, someone posted this image on the 2077 discord about a week ago or so that I presume came from one of the 2020 source books and lists Cool as "Cool/Will":

 
I don't think it's pointless.

From what we've seen, it would seem that you can't create a swampmonster during the character creation to whom high ATTR would be completely out of place.

(For a sidenote, it's really nice that all the social stats were left out... and are now deemed pointless. Just the way as it should be... right?)
OK, "pointless" was probably the wrong term to use ... "Considerably less then useful"?

Well, CP2020 never really had a "Charisma" stat as it's normally portrayed. Attractiveness, Empathy, Cool, and various social skills filled that role.

While I think "Empathy" is a critical stat in the CP2020/CP2077 setting I agree there are numerous problems encountered when trying to implement it in a video game setting where 90% of players are essentially clueless about just how vital it is. You'd have cyberpsychos and character that couldn't convince someone to sell them a drink at a bar because they were so antisocial. CDPR is controlling the amount of cyberware characters are permitted so that (more or less) solves the cyberpsycho problem, and short of implementing at least three entire dialog trees (charismatic, neutral, antisocial) it would be damn difficult to represent the "are you a decent person or an arsehole" dimension. Besides, we're dealing with mostly non-role players here, they're going to make dialog decisions based on how they, the player, view matters not on their characters stats/abilities. Yes, you could certainly level/"empathy" gate certain potential dialog options but that creates it's own issues.

Cool is in CP2077, how it works, and what effect a high or low stat has we can only guess at this point.

Social skills ... now there's a serious conundrum ... the wide variety of situational social skills in CP2020 (Grooming, Wardrobe, Intimidate, Streetwise, Human Perception, Interview, Leadership, Seduction, Social, Persuasion, Perform) could certainly be paired down a "bit". Many could be combined, some really have no place in a video game (Wardrobe - as you're limited to what the developers implement).

So the question is how do you implement and handle social skills? They have many of the same problems I mentioned when discussing "Empathy" above and currently it seems CDPR has decided not to implement them at all; or in a limited fashion, as "Street Cred" seems to sorta represent Streetwise and probably Leadership, Social, and Persuasion as well. In a single player video game you really don't have the option of calling on teammates with skills you lack. In order to represent the skills you'd have to level gate options behind certain levels in certain skills (let's ignore the whole RNG/save scumming issue). So it's entirely possible for players to put themselves in a position where they can't advance the game because of skill selections they made. Not at all good.

I keep stressing, everything you can do in a video game has to be coded, animated, voiced, etc. by the developers before the game is ever released. This puts severe limitations on what you can, and can't, include in a game.

Because two people saying exactly the same things to you won't always have the same response, that's what Empathy (and Attractiveness) are for.
In reality true, but damn hard to implement in a video game.
 
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Besides, we're dealing with mostly non-role players here, they're going to make dialog decisions based on how they, the player, view matters not on their characters stats/abilities.

Actually unless you are min/maxing in P&P you are supposed to play your character, not avoid things because you don't have points in it.

Social skills ... now there's a serious conundrum ... the wide variety of situational social skills in CP2020 (Grooming, Wardrobe, Intimidate, Streetwise, Human Perception, Interview, Leadership, Seduction, Social, Persuasion, Perform) could certainly be paired down a "bit". Many could be combined, some really have no place in a video game (Wardrobe - as you're limited to what the developers implement).

So the question is how do you implement and handle social skills? They have many of the same problems I mentioned when discussing "Empathy" above and currently it seems CDPR has decided not to implement them at all;

Which confirm what I said before:
"it means that in this game combats are more important than talk "

or in a limited fashion, as "Street Cred" seems to sorta represent Streetwise and probably Leadership, Social, and Persuasion as well.

Nope. Actually as presented Street Cred in C2020 is called "Reputation" which is used a the "skill" (with Cool being the stat) of the Facedown test which is some kind of intimidation test used during tense situations.
But it has nothing to do with how well you perform durings talks, that still relate to the character.

In a single player video game you really don't have the option of calling on teammates with skills you lack.

I saw that a lot actually.

In order to represent the skills you'd have to level gate options behind certain levels in certain skills (let's ignore the whole RNG/save scumming issue). So it's entirely possible for players to put themselves in a position where they can't advance the game because of skill selections they made. Not at all good.

RNG isn't a problem at all, as you can easely erase it with fixed results. That's what I do when I prepare a P&P game: some dices are already fixed so I can describes some things (like full scale battles) without wasting time.

Besides, about being locked in the game:
-That would implies that there is only one way, which is not very RPGish.
-How would that be different than being blocked by a non avoidable combat?
 
Actually unless you are min/maxing in P&P you are supposed to play your character, not avoid things because you don't have points in it.
Depends entirely on the PnP game you're playing.
Many don't have social skills, so it's entirely on the player; others have extensive ones, so yes, you may well avoid things you don't have points in.

As with any PnP RPG it's a matter of how the players and GM want to handle things. All the "best" RPGs stress the "rules" are guidelines not hard-and-fast-never-to-be-violated-commandments from your favorite deity. Video games, lacking a human GM don't have that luxury or flexibility so you have to design the game around not only what you expect/want players to do but how many will actually play the game.


Which confirm what I said before:
"it means that in this game combats are more important than talk "
That currently appears to be the case.

BUT !

We've only seen a pre-alpha demo directed at journalists. CDPR does read these forums and is fully aware of how "hard core" RPG (and even more so the hard core CP2020) fans feel about the game. This is why whenever I critique (OK, sometimes flat out criticize or wonder what the the hell they're smoking) I try to offer an alternative.

ANYONE can say "it sux", and that sort of feedback is next to useless.

Nope. Actually as presented Street Cred in C2020 is called "Reputation" which is used a the "skill" (with Cool being the stat) of the Facedown test which is some kind of intimidation test used during tense situations.
But it has nothing to do with how well you perform durings talks, that still relate to the character.
Right now every indication is there are (essentially) no social skills, or skill checks, in CP2077, it's strictly player driven (i.e. a generic FPS) I find it hard (next to impossible) to believe CDPR and Maximum Mike intend the final release of CP2077 to be nothing more then a shooter with a few dialog options. Because if they do they're going to get roasted by RPGs fans and all the goodwill they've spent years cultivating will go right down the drain.

Again, this was a press demo, not a final release gameplay demo.

RNG isn't a problem at all, as you can easely erase it with fixed results. That's what I do when I prepare a P&P game: some dices are already fixed so I can describes some things (like full scale battles) without wasting time.

Besides, about being locked in the game:
-That would implies that there is only one way, which is not very RPGish.
-How would that be different than being blocked by a non avoidable combat?
And a good many video game have battles early in the game you can't win for the same reason, the story-line. But to make every (or even some) results fixed totally ruins the possibility of a replay, you're going to get X result no matter what you do.
 
That currently appears to be the case.

BUT !

We've only seen a pre-alpha demo directed at journalists. CDPR does read these forums and is fully aware of how "hard core" RPG (and even more so the hard core CP2020) fans feel about the game. This is why whenever I critique (OK, sometimes flat out criticize or wonder what the the hell they're smoking) I try to offer an alternative.

ANYONE can say "it sux", and that sort of feedback is next to useless.

Actually most of the times when I gives some crunch advice, what I get is: "It's useless, it's too late to implement new mechanics".
And actually yes, when I think of it I believe that it's probably true.

Right now every indication is there are (essentially) no social skills, or skill checks, in CP2077, it's strictly player driven (i.e. a generic FPS) I find it hard (next to impossible) to believe CDPR and Maximum Mike intend the final release of CP2077 to be nothing more then a shooter with a few dialog options. Because if they do they're going to get roasted by RPGs fans and all the goodwill they've spent years cultivating will go right down the drain.

Again, this was a press demo, not a final release gameplay demo.

Actually I think that there will probably be skills. But if Cool isn't a compilation of Empathy + Cool + Attractiveness then it makes talks looks really sub par.

And a good many video game have battles early in the game you can't win for the same reason, the story-line. But to make every (or even some) results fixed totally ruins the possibility of a replay, you're going to get X result no matter what you do.

Actually that's not exactly what I meant.
I was saying that if there is skill checks, then the result could be fixed "depending on V's Stats".
So it doesn't ruins replayability unless you makes the same build again and again, because different builds will gets differents outcomes.
 
Actually most of the times when I gives some crunch advice, what I get is: "It's useless, it's too late to implement new mechanics".
And actually yes, when I think of it I believe that it's probably true.
Whenever I post here I try to address the issue and readers of these forums as a whole rather then any specific individual, I'm sorry for causing confusion.

And it's not even remotely "to late", CP2077 is still a year (or more) from release.
Yes, it's too late to start over from scratch, but to implement a new feature or alter an existing one it's not even close to "to late".

Actually I think that there will probably be skills. But if Cool isn't a compilation of Empathy + Cool + Attractiveness then it makes talks looks really sub par.
At this point all we can do is look at how matters are handled in CP2020 and other RPGs and guess what CDPR might do. We have zero proof of what they're doing, or intend to do. So your guess is every bit as good as mine.

Actually that's not exactly what I meant.
I was saying that if there is skill checks, then the result could be fixed "depending on V's Stats".
So it doesn't ruins replayability unless you makes the same build again and again, because different builds will gets differents outcomes.
Ahhh ... you're talking "level gating" (I think).
That topic has been discussed elsewhere, and while it has some advantages it has an equal number of disadvantages. So implementing it in a game is merely a matter of the developers deciding if they wish to go that route or not. And by the same token many players love, or hate, the concept. It's merely a matter of personal preference, there is no "right" or "wrong" answer.
 
OK, "pointless" was probably the wrong term to use ... "Considerably less then useful"?

Well, CP2020 never really had a "Charisma" stat as it's normally portrayed. Attractiveness, Empathy, Cool, and various social skills filled that role.

While I think "Empathy" is a critical stat in the CP2020/CP2077 setting I agree there are numerous problems encountered when trying to implement it in a video game setting where 90% of players are essentially clueless about just how vital it is. You'd have cyberpsychos and character that couldn't convince someone to sell them a drink at a bar because they were so antisocial. CDPR is controlling the amount of cyberware characters are permitted so that (more or less) solves the cyberpsycho problem, and short of implementing at least three entire dialog trees (charismatic, neutral, antisocial) it would be damn difficult to represent the "are you a decent person or an arsehole" dimension. Besides, we're dealing with mostly non-role players here, they're going to make dialog decisions based on how they, the player, view matters not on their characters stats/abilities. Yes, you could certainly level/"empathy" gate certain potential dialog options but that creates it's own issues.

Cool is in CP2077, how it works, and what effect a high or low stat has we can only guess at this point.

Social skills ... now there's a serious conundrum ... the wide variety of situational social skills in CP2020 (Grooming, Wardrobe, Intimidate, Streetwise, Human Perception, Interview, Leadership, Seduction, Social, Persuasion, Perform) could certainly be paired down a "bit". Many could be combined, some really have no place in a video game (Wardrobe - as you're limited to what the developers implement).

So the question is how do you implement and handle social skills? They have many of the same problems I mentioned when discussing "Empathy" above and currently it seems CDPR has decided not to implement them at all; or in a limited fashion, as "Street Cred" seems to sorta represent Streetwise and probably Leadership, Social, and Persuasion as well. In a single player video game you really don't have the option of calling on teammates with skills you lack. In order to represent the skills you'd have to level gate options behind certain levels in certain skills (let's ignore the whole RNG/save scumming issue). So it's entirely possible for players to put themselves in a position where they can't advance the game because of skill selections they made. Not at all good.

I keep stressing, everything you can do in a video game has to be coded, animated, voiced, etc. by the developers before the game is ever released. This puts severe limitations on what you can, and can't, include in a game.


In reality true, but damn hard to implement in a video game.
OK, "pointless" was probably the wrong term to use ... "Considerably less then useful"?

Well, CP2020 never really had a "Charisma" stat as it's normally portrayed. Attractiveness, Empathy, Cool, and various social skills filled that role.

While I think "Empathy" is a critical stat in the CP2020/CP2077 setting I agree there are numerous problems encountered when trying to implement it in a video game setting where 90% of players are essentially clueless about just how vital it is. You'd have cyberpsychos and character that couldn't convince someone to sell them a drink at a bar because they were so antisocial. CDPR is controlling the amount of cyberware characters are permitted so that (more or less) solves the cyberpsycho problem, and short of implementing at least three entire dialog trees (charismatic, neutral, antisocial) it would be damn difficult to represent the "are you a decent person or an arsehole" dimension. Besides, we're dealing with mostly non-role players here, they're going to make dialog decisions based on how they, the player, view matters not on their characters stats/abilities. Yes, you could certainly level/"empathy" gate certain potential dialog options but that creates it's own issues.

Cool is in CP2077, how it works, and what effect a high or low stat has we can only guess at this point.

Social skills ... now there's a serious conundrum ... the wide variety of situational social skills in CP2020 (Grooming, Wardrobe, Intimidate, Streetwise, Human Perception, Interview, Leadership, Seduction, Social, Persuasion, Perform) could certainly be paired down a "bit". Many could be combined, some really have no place in a video game (Wardrobe - as you're limited to what the developers implement).

So the question is how do you implement and handle social skills? They have many of the same problems I mentioned when discussing "Empathy" above and currently it seems CDPR has decided not to implement them at all; or in a limited fashion, as "Street Cred" seems to sorta represent Streetwise and probably Leadership, Social, and Persuasion as well. In a single player video game you really don't have the option of calling on teammates with skills you lack. In order to represent the skills you'd have to level gate options behind certain levels in certain skills (let's ignore the whole RNG/save scumming issue). So it's entirely possible for players to put themselves in a position where they can't advance the game because of skill selections they made. Not at all good.

I keep stressing, everything you can do in a video game has to be coded, animated, voiced, etc. by the developers before the game is ever released. This puts severe limitations on what you can, and can't, include in a game.


In reality true, but damn hard to implement in a video game.
I'm sorry, this is just a pet peeve of mine, but you mean unsocial not antisocial. They are completely different things. Someone who is antisocial is often very charming and charismatic, more often than not being expert manipulaters. Unsocial people just don't want to socialize, for whatever reason they have. No offense, just as I said it's a pet peeve.
 
All the "best" RPGs stress the "rules" are guidelines not hard-and-fast-never-to-be-violated-commandments from your favorite deity.

We've always played PnP (when we still played) according to the rules, but the systems themselves were used loosely enough to allow leeway and opportunity where it strictly speaking might've not been otherwise. The result of the die or the lack of a skill meant what it meant (i.e. it wasn't about arguing with the GM if there weren't any points in the persuasion skill even if the player himself might've sound convincing).
 
We've always played PnP (when we still played) according to the rules, but the systems themselves were used loosely enough to allow leeway and opportunity where it strictly speaking might've not been otherwise.
I'm thinking more of the "rules lawyers".
 

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Hi.
What does the Cool stat actually do?
I still don't understand :confused:

I think it's the ability to gainfully resolve tense standoff situations, like with Royce, the sensors-for-eyes gangbanger and his thugs in the gang's living room.
 
There are actually a lot of modern RPGs that have social skills, and many of them have social skills that affect the game in some pretty cool ways. So I don't see any legitimate reason for CDPR to ditch them. If they're doing it, it's not because it can't be done, it's because they don't want to do it, for whatever reason.

Having a persuade option that affects even a handful of encounters is better than ditching it entirely. It gives players options to roleplay, and that's always a worthy pursuit.
 
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