Cost of deck efficiency and other observations.

[isnadtochiev]

Cost of deck efficiency and other observations.

Well, after playing for quite a while at 4000-4100 in the current patch, ive got some thought.
Disclaimer, i intentionally play pure wild hunt deck, just because i want to. This topic is NOT "buff monsters plox", its ment to be a discussion on current state of gwent, with its good and bad sides.

So, firsly, about good sides.
In terms of faction variety this just might be the best patch yet, as you can meet any faction pretty high up.
Ive had several draws over the last evening, and many fairly close games, so cant complain too much about overall balance state.
So, now that we established, that from my POV this patch is fairly good, to things that raise questions.
Main trouble is reflected in the title - there are at least two decks (Discard and Spy NG) that reach almost 100% deck efficiency on a regular basis.
Good thing on paper, trouble lies in the fact that cost of said deck efficiency is too low.
Latest meta report is fairly indicative of how strong exatly such efficiency is.
On individual Factions and cards:

ST: Two fairly common decks are SpellTael and dwarves, and they appear to do fine, not too much to complain here.
Zoltan is like a reverse pre-nerf Caranthir. Wich was good in any deck, and it was a problem.
Seer - well, if you gonna have a snowball card like that, it unclear why doesnt it die in 1 alzurs. It should.

NR: apparent underdog in current state of the game. There is hope for planned armor rework. Sadly, atm they are seemingly on the weak side, survivng of balistas power spikes against Dagon swarms.
Trololo is obviously extremely strong for a silver, then again, it cant carry the faction.If anything, NR could use some love.


NG: from what appeared to be the best designed faction in game it degraded into 25 units deck.
Assasin - this card simply should not exist. If it does, not under any circumstances shall it be able to target golds. Actually, no. Simply shouldnt exist.
Infiltrator - at 9 power, its effect triggered with either Impera unit pushes it towards 11, pretty much examplory performance for bronze in current state of the game. It unclear, why however it can enable a 1-shot kill on any card in the game, golds included.
Magni Division - mill is not fun to play, or play against. This archtype should've never been implemented. Desicion to reinforce it further is beyond my comprehension.
Overall, with inclusion of enforcers faction recieved a total of 6 bronze units that demand answer, witch is around 3 too much.

Monsters: as it has been for a long time by now, most varied faction. Might as well be 2nd most annoying (nobody can touch Mill in that regard). Between Dagon swarm/consume in multiple variations and Eredin WH (wich is considerably more rare, to be fair) you face them a bit too much.
Woodland spirit - basicly THE trouble with the faction. Out 4 golds in most popular deck, 2 are royal decree to play him and restore to play him again. Simply put, this card gives too much tempo unconditionally, to a point where another nerf to him (or well, harpies/foglet) looks absolutely neccecery.

SK: A much harder case, faction doesnt really have one big offender in its arsenal, and owes its power to near-perfect deck efficiency.
Warmongers - well, they are the latest addition in that deck arsenal, and sitting at 7/8/9 power, efficiency that they bring comes waay too cheap.
Restore - what was ment to be a nerf took a turn to the worst. However, this card would i guess be more or less ok, if not for the last member of this list.

Neutreal: Dorregay - Hes in the same bucket with Assassins - a card that should have never existed in its current form. Ekimmaras arent ment to be neutral. Considering that complete removal of this card is unlikely, it must be removed from summon list.

There is also a long list of cards that never ever see the light of play: Yenn:Con, Triss:Butt, Witchers, Crones... It could be a long list, you get the idea. If there are snowball bronzes out of alzurs reach, no way Yenn shall stay in it. And there certainly shouldnt be a 1-power disloyal bronze taking it out with giggles.

Thats all i had to say, /disucss, i guess.

 

[Kerset]

Assasin - this card simply should not exist. If it does, not under any circumstances shall it be able to target golds.

Can you give example of gold card that can be killed by assasin but can't be killed by alzur? Every card with armor can survive assasin attack so it has actually problem with golds. The only bronze cards that gives assasin adv are alba spearmen and farseer, on other hand he can't kill axeman.

 

[xandrmoro]

mill is not fun to play, or play against

You're wrong. Well, it might be not fun for you, but it is fun for me - and vice versa, I feel boring that dumb weather spam monsters are into. This game is really about many different playstyles.

 

[ArianeGrosmont]

You're wrong. Well, it might be not fun for you, but it is fun for me - and vice versa, I feel boring that dumb weather spam monsters are into. This game is really about many different playstyles.

The difference is: you go into a game against any other deck you hate- match is over in 10 minutes, and you move on with your life. You go into a game against mill - that's about half an hour you're never getting back. If you enjoy mill, that's no problem, but if you don't...
...and if it's once in a blue moon that you meet a deck that drains both your time and your enjoyment, I'd be the first to say 'suck it up', but when you know there's a very good chance one of your upcoming matches will be this, it can become kinda: um... you know what I haven't done in a while? alphabetized my canned goods. let's do that! gwent can wait...

 

[isnadtochiev]

Can you give example of gold card that can be killed by assasin but can't be killed by alzur? Every card with armor can survive assasin attack so it has actually problem with golds. The only bronze cards that gives assasin adv are alba spearmen and farseer, on other hand he can't kill axeman.

Ehm, Imlerith, Unseen elder, Old speartip: Awake, Aglais... those come to mind, im sure there is more.
Actually, if assassin dealt no more than 7 damage, it still would be a card id hate to see in game. Trouble is - it is a minion-based removal, heavy one at that. And its heavily synergistic with its archtype, allowing a 25 units deck access to heavy removal while preserving its insane thinning with emissaries.
If it was an NG-only bronze special with the same effect - fine, it would be tolerable. While technicly being 1 power stronger (and +3 powercreep over alzurs)It would have a price in consistency of your deck, you would have to keep it in your hand if you want to use it. Its current version doesnt have this drawback, and thats my trouble with it.

You're wrong. Well, it might be not fun for you, but it is fun for me - and vice versa, I feel boring that dumb weather spam monsters are into. This game is really about many different playstyles.

I guess we can only agree to disagree here.
For the sake of argument however, ill clarify: Games against mill can be interesting. But fun? No, not really. Why do i think it doesnt belong in the game? Because conventional goal of the game is to accumulate more points, than your opponent, BO3. Against mill, you set of rules differ. You actually want more than 25 cards in your deck, you actually want to pass without expanding all your cards, you dont want to thin your deck. It is a different game, i see why someone might enjoy it, but i dont like being forced to play it when i actually set off to play gwent.
Come to think of it, biggest trouble here is Sweers. A card hardcounters several deck efficiency tools like Dwarven Agitator, Reaver Scout or Operator. To a point where you have very little chance if your deck containts them.
I dont think we can agree on mill overall, but hopefully i managed to explain why there is so much loathing towards it.

 

[Michelazz]

Great analysis!

Assassins though are not very problematic. You cant ask for the removal of a card that give max value against certain decks or archetypes just because one of those decks happened to be urs.

Woodland spirit needs a change in its current form! ( even though i use it myself) the renew+ yennefer combo is OP! and gives insane value.

NR machines are still doing great . Henselt is the strongest leader in the game by himself ( disregarding the synergy with the deck which put king bran at the top in this case)

Mill is boring as hell! I never lost against one though with my monster deck. they are too matchup dependant . They either have almost 100% chance of winning or almost 0% chance of winning. Dont know why people enjoy this deck much!

dorregaray can be made doomed if found too problematic.

I still play crones and they are one of the main cards of my deck. Witchers are seeing more play now in NR decks. You have to take into consideration that those cards are meta dependant. they have a passive ability of thinning the deck and giving a huge tempo swing thats it.

 

[nemirni]

NG: from what appeared to be the best designed faction in game it degraded into 25 units deck.
Assasin - this card simply should not exist. If it does, not under any circumstances shall it be able to target golds. Actually, no. Simply shouldnt exist.
Infiltrator - at 9 power, its effect triggered with either Impera unit pushes it towards 11, pretty much examplory performance for bronze in current state of the game. It unclear, why however it can enable a 1-shot kill on any card in the game, golds included.
Magni Division - mill is not fun to play, or play against. This archtype should've never been implemented. Desicion to reinforce it further is beyond my comprehension.
Overall, with inclusion of enforcers faction recieved a total of 6 bronze units that demand answer, witch is around 3 too much.

Assasin is way way weaker then non NG players think it to be. Yes it can at times in certain conditions be an Alzur on steroids, but equally often it can weaker version of alzur. As someone mentioned it doesn't even kill the Axeman. I actually don't run it in my deck and only have Cealach or whatever his name is to spawn him, which I only do if it is Milfgard on the other side, since Farseer is always shielded and nothing DagonSwarm or Skellige restore place on board is really a must target.

Infiltrator is a really good card. But needs set up or is a setup card itself.It is preventable, counterable and not that immediate huge swing that you can say it is OP. You can always lock that 20 point unit that he targeted for example, while scorch for example won't give you a heads up when it hits. On the other hand if you play Infiltrator into a board with 3 brigades and 3 enforcers it will be 21 point play.. But if you let that board happen in the first place you are either packing something Kambi like or are just... well you get it. Not OP in my opinion

I hate Magni so i can't defend it, but i really don't mind the Millboys playing their decks. I mean diversity sometimes comes at a cost(of a lengthy game in this case), but wouldn't have it taken out.
Then again i find the Mill so uncompetitive that i am always surprised to see it higher up the ranks. I mean there are so many shortcomings to this deck... beyond Ava dependence...

 

[isnadtochiev]

Infiltrator is a really good card. But needs set up or is a setup card itself.It is preventable, counterable and not that immediate huge swing that you can say it is OP. You can always lock that 20 point unit that he targeted for example, while scorch for example won't give you a heads up when it hits. On the other hand if you play Infiltrator into a board with 3 brigades and 3 enforcers it will be 21 point play.. But if you let that board happen in the first place you are either packing something Kambi like or are just... well you get it. Not OP in my opinion

Setup is not really a requirement. It will work retroactievely with Impera for example. Besides, a 9 power drop is fairly good on its own. However, as i said, my trouble with this card is its synergy with... Rainfarn, i believe is his name? 1 shot-a-spy-dude. Locking spy status away is hypoteticly an answer, except you cant realisticly run 3 locks in your deck (unless you're Radovid). Moreover, between Enforcers and Brigade, that deck has a number of must-answer cards, wich makes saving the lock barely an option.
If it was restricted to bronzes o - allright, i guess. But it also renders Borkh for example essentially osolete. Lock is by default a negative effect, and often enough locking your own unit means nullifying most of its value, especially golds and silvers.
Long story short, card that enable power swings like that either shouldnt have a 9-power body, or should have much strikter limitations to its ability.
About assassins - the fact that meta is infested with swarm decks with no real targets limit this cards usage for now. It doesnt mean its balanced or healthy. In my reply to Kerset i covered fairly extensievely why this card is a problem. If you want to see how problematic exactly is it - well, we can surely wair for inevitable WS nerf, but cards design is so obviously flawed, i dont see the need.

 

[nemirni]

Menno is the one that can destroy any spy. But Menno is the gold card that kills the spying unit not the infiltrator. He is just a potential enabler for a combo putting infiltrator. 20 or even 30 point swing in two rounds including a bronze and a gold card and a chance to block it is pretty much a norm inside the current meta. Gigni, Hailstorm, Yennefer, Iris can all produce the same amount or more in one round.. and some of them are only silvers...

 

[isnadtochiev]

Menno is the one that can destroy any spy. But Menno is the gold card that kills the spying unit not the infiltrator. He is just a potential enabler for a combo putting infiltrator. 20 or even 30 point swing in two rounds including a bronze and a gold card and a chance to block it is pretty much a norm inside the current meta. Gigni, Hailstorm, Yennefer, Iris can all produce the same amount or more in one round.. and some of them are only silvers...

True, but lets take a look at list you've given:
G:Igni and Hailstorm both can only do so if you allow it. You dont need to actievely lock your own units, just use smart positioning. Against Igni - power staggering also solves the trouble. Both are really outrageous only if forced, and there is only one card that can effectievely force them - Zoltan. I believe i did list him in the list of troublesome cards.
Yennefer wont do so unless the board state is incredibly disbalanced in terms of unit numbers. There is only 1 card that achieves that by itself, its Woodland Spirit. Hes also on the list.

Alot of it comes down to what spying status is. Spy NG is quite similar to WH control mechanicly. WH needs frost, NG needs spying units. Trouble here is - frost can be dispelled with other bronzes. Weather is an old, known enemy. Great deal of effort went into implementing counters to it and balancing them. Spying status however used to just mean a unit is on the opponents side of the board. Therefore, there was no need to implement any counters to it. Infiltrators turned it into offensive tool that doesnt have an answer ingame aside from lock. Wich is by itself is a negative effect, and depending on a target - it can be fairly severe.
Other part is just the raw power they bring to the table: for unit that gives that much synergy value, 9 base power is extremely high. Synergy cards are ment to pay in stats for their potential gain, and sitting at 9, Infilitrator apparently is statted around his ability being worth 2 power at best. You know thats just not its actuall value.
Finnaly, its another thing that enables 25 units deck. Why run scorch or other "hard removal" specials, even locks, when you have Infiltraters + Nauzikas to supplement Alzurs and Menno for anything bigger? Both are enabled by infiltrator.
I think thats the best argument i can come up with to explain why i dont like what that card currently does.

 

[Beren_93]

I started to play Gwent Online with Northern Realms simply because i am fan of the characters in it and it was my favorite in Witcher 3. Since today i still play only NR. Played like 20 games with NG Spy deck and its very cool faction but they are simply the enemys and i am not feeling them. Tryed SK dont like it too. Tryed Spellatel or whatever and was gonna throw up. And i simply hate monsters.
My point is that i really hate that my beloved faction is not flexible as the others. At least i think so.
So ST have flexible spell spam and moving units and that is fun for them.
SK have monster load of resses and self strenghtening units and ALSO moving units with that latest patch.
Monsters as always are simply annoying and invented for playes who just like to put cards on the table and win. Carryover is annyoing enough among the other extras as MOVING units.
Nilfgard is cool faction witch i respect and witch actually require thinking and i really like the spy idea witch make this faction unique and flexible and also with good synergy between golds, bronzes, silvers.

So we come to Northern Realms. Today i tryed a lot of builds and it simply this faction feels very boring. No flexibilty at all. I love this faction and i dont want to play other but i cant find synergy at all.
Ok, so we have Shani, Nenneke and John Natalis. This are the strongest strategy cards ( my point is they are strong as you know 100% what will happen when you play them). Lets not forget Natalis wasnt playable veeery long time along with Prince Stennis. So the unique thing of NR is armor. To be honest i find a lot less atractive than spies, carryover, moving units and 4 ressing units.
The biggest thing with armor NOW is Trolololo, Heavy Cavalery, witch is so easy counterable and boring and its simply not working. The other "strong part" of NR is machines, witch are my favorite part of NR. I try to make all my builds around them, because there are a lot more interesting than spamming large numbers and boosting endlessly. I really like the Kaedvenni Siege Master + Ballista sinergy. This is my favorite NR sinergy. The other machines are simply not so usefull. And i really cant understand why Farseer is 8 and Kaedveni Siege Support is 6. Too many cards in NR feel useleless:
Aretusa Adept - nice to put weather but feel week.
Witch Hunter - nice idea but cant feel the synergy with other cards.
Dun Banner Light Cavalery - after nerf weak.
Reaver Hunters - after nerf weak.
Trebuchet - simply way too many conditions to be usefull.
Field Medic - fun but the random effect is just gamble.
Redanian elite - simply weak.
Redanian Knight Elect - weak and easy to counter.
Kaedveni Sergeant - just clear weather on 1 row and nothing else is boring.
Reinforced Ballista and Trebuchet - they feel useless and just inveted for numbers
Tridam Infantryman - no one play it
Ban Ard Tutor - cant understand the synergy its help mulligan i guess but cant feel it

Maybe i am noob and i dont understand nothing and there is more synergy but i cant see it. We dont have moving units only we and NG, cant understand the reason. And with this nerf to golds who will play cards like Pricilla lol.
I will keep try and search for fun and flexible build but i am affraid i used maybe all possible variants from 25 to 40 card decks and other factions always have more suprises in their pockets than me. Maybe i am just Dumby The Dumb Infantryman but i can live with that possibility.

 

[Lornick77]

The assassin really isn't a problem imho. At most you are getting a 9 pt power swing plus any spy synergy. Which is about on par with what you would expect from a bronze unit. The infiltrator is good, but not broken good. The gold card that can insta-gib a spy might need toned down though.

As far as mill strategies go though, I disagree. I know it isn't a popular strategy or element of the game. Personally, I think it actually is kind of fun to play. It's not my go-to deck so it wouldn't break my heart if it goes away. But I think that would be a mistake. Just the fact that mill exists adds a certain balance to the game. It forces players to be careful with how many filter card effects they include. Any current or future filter decks become too strong, mill will always be there to counter. Yes, mill decks take longer to play. I think people tend to exaggerate just how much though. I would say an average game ends with around 9 to 5 unused cards per player. A mill deck will play those plus 2 on average if their strategy goes off. Including the opponents extra cards, we're talking about roughly an extra 12 to 20 cards played during the course of the game. So it is an exaggeration to say a regular game takes 10 minutes and a mill game takes 30. Perhaps it feels that way to some people though.

I agree about the neutral card that spawns class specific cards. It simply shouldn't exist, silver card or not. I suppose summoning circle falls into the same category though it doesn't bother me as much for some reason.

 

[nemirni]

True, but lets take a look at list you've given:
G:Igni and Hailstorm both can only do so if you allow it. You dont need to actievely lock your own units, just use smart positioning. Against Igni - power staggering also solves the trouble. Both are really outrageous only if forced, and there is only one card that can effectievely force them - Zoltan. I believe i did list him in the list of troublesome cards.
Yennefer wont do so unless the board state is incredibly disbalanced in terms of unit numbers. There is only 1 card that achieves that by itself, its Woodland Spirit. Hes also on the list.

Alot of it comes down to what spying status is. Spy NG is quite similar to WH control mechanicly. WH needs frost, NG needs spying units. Trouble here is - frost can be dispelled with other bronzes.

I think you are overestimating the idea of smart positioning. I mean of course, you can reduce the damage done by Gigni, Hailstorm or even lacerate but it will still be a strong hit. I mean if you have 12 units on board at the end of a long round at best you can have 3x4 units and all massive ones on different rows (which in turn makes the gold weather appearing such a delight). That is still 15-20 points of Hailstorm and one mega unit for Gigni.

And that is without taking in consideration that Zoltan is only one such "lining you up for slaughter" kind of card. ST has him, but also those dwarfs and Ciaran that move units, Monsters have drowners and Frightener and Harpooner deserves its own special mention too. So basically there are quite a few ways to line up the enemy for a big hit and agreed sometimes defend against it. Of course this differs greatly if you are playing low strength units or high and buffed ones. Spies and WH being a very good examples of both extremes. I believe the damage MH does to me on average is never lower then the highest it ever strikes a WH deck for.

As for monsters there are actually quite a lot of cards working with this swarm archetype. As you mentioned there is gold Wspirit that brings 4+1 body, but you also have:
C Harpy - 3 bodies that are replaced by 2 more if killed and additional harpy
Golem - 2 units if killed
fire elemental(what is it called now?) - 4 units
the spider also enables swarm but consume is rare this days, still it counts.
And this cards are actually bronze and silver making the swarm spawn even more strong.

Yennefer could have a stubborn tag added to her unicorns because redeploying it is just too much or even better removing the unicorns altogether and just casting a spell boost or damage reducing the number of units by 1 at least, but i really wouldn't go changing the Wspirit. Would like to see Foglet become silver though.

 

[Alexandr.Gabriel]

I agree. When i am playing against monster players it feels like they just use guide from internet amd bamm free win. I am upset and i don t gg monster pkayers , at least monster players who plays netdecks without their personal contribution

 

[xandrmoro]

Well, today I had two games in a row that changed my mind about assassins. I havnt seen problem with them, but oh boy.

First game I was playing against spy and he keeped ressurecting them again and again and again, resulting in 7(!) assassins, unconditionally killing my mangonels and golds. They weren't strong on they own, but hey, they kept removing my win condition all three rounds in a row without any dependence on draw!
Second game I nearly had the hand to do this on my own playing spies. Luckily (for me) I trapped into emhyr millgaard. Three magnas on first round, three asassins in addition to two in hand. Another two magnas in second turn - two more medics. Gosh, that was RAMPAGE.

I still won't agree that they don't have right to exist, but I'll totally agree that they should at least be doomed.

 

[TheRedWatcher]

Well, today I had two games in a row that changed my mind about assassins. I havnt seen problem with them, but oh boy.

First game I was playing against spy and he keeped ressurecting them again and again and again, resulting in 7(!) assassins, unconditionally killing my mangonels and golds. They weren't strong on they own, but hey, they kept removing my win condition all three rounds in a row without any dependence on draw!
Second game I nearly had the hand to do this on my own playing spies. Luckily (for me) I trapped into emhyr millgaard. Three magnas on first round, three asassins in addition to two in hand. Another two magnas in second turn - two more medics. Gosh, that was RAMPAGE.

I still won't agree that they don't have right to exist, but I'll totally agree that they should at least be doomed.

Okay just because other people abuse the cards, doesn't mean everyone does. Not everyone who runs assassins does this. Even I who play Monster and Nilf, do not use assassins like this and find that kind of Nilf deck ridiculous. But there needs to be a way to balance it without backfiring on people running different combos. Or running a variation that isn't so popular. Unfortunately nerfs to hammer popular decks, harms those running unpopular decks. And then you have the rampant netdeck issue again. Because no one can do anything with variation.