CP 2020 P&P Rules Questions

[razorjack780]

CP 2020 P&P Rules Questions

Hello cybernet,

I am going back to CP 2020 after 10 years of not playing, my GM is a CP rookie and we are having a little disagreement about some rules.

Amongst them is the following, I am making a Fixer character and I noticed that they don't have streetwise on their skill starting package which at first I thought it was nuts!

Then however, I thought well...Streetdeal is pretty much the fixer's main skill and it works a lot like streetwise. So I naturally thought that Streetdeal overrides Streetwise in the Fixer's case. Makes sense?

Anyway, my GM disagrees with this since he considers that while they are very similar, these skills are different. To which my counter argument was that if Streetdeal didn't override Streetwise then there is no way that they wouldn't include it in the fixer's skill package.

So, we hit a bit of a wall on that subject and I decided to ask around the net for what was the consensus regarding this specific matter.

Thanks for any input.

(BTW, feel free to use this thread to post your own questions regarding CP 2020 P&P)

 

[jacqsynn]

Yes in my opinion Streetdeal over shadows Streetwise, Streetwise allows players to know whats up and who to talk to. Where Streetdeal does all of that and allows the Fixer to cut deals, gain contacts (asper wildside). That is why Fixers do not have Streetwise in there package.

 

[razorjack780]

Glad to hear that I am not the only one that thinks like that.

Anyhow, I would be glad to hear from the rest of your and your perspectives.

(I am sort of hunting for signatures, to make a solid case to persuade my GM to change his mind)

 

[Sardukhar]

Well. It's in the rules, actually. What would you need Streetwise for as a Fixer? It's the knowledge of the seamy side of life - contraband, talking to crooks, avoiding bad neighbourhoods. Guessss what Streetdeal is? The ability to deal with the underground information network. Rumours, pick up scores, score big deals....

Both are pretty obviously knowledge of how the Street works. Difference is, at +5 Streetdeal you can penetrate the secrets of all but the most powerful crime families. Boostergangers, extortionists, hit-and-run artists, most crime families whether Mafia or Yakuza. Their secrets are yours.

Whereas Streetwise +5 lets you arrange a murder contract or "know a few mobsters". Yeah. Kind of a major step down from +5 Streetdeal, isn't it? Where you can make serious mobsters hop by the handful, because you know where they live, who they screw and what they do.

That's because Streetdeal is the bomb. Streetwise is handy and lets you get stuff done on the street. It's a pick-up skill for non-deal-makers.

Your problem is, it's very GM-dependent. Without any formal rules to decide how it applies and how potent it is, it's very much up to the GM. You could pick up a copy of Wildside, the Fixer supplement. that explains a bunch. But if your GM doesn't grasp how potent Streetdeal is, you have a problem, because you need him or her as an active partner.

 

[doomblade403x]

Well. It's in the rules, actually. What would you need Streetwise for as a Fixer? It's the knowledge of the seamy side of life - contraband, talking to crooks, avoiding bad neighbourhoods. Guessss what Streetdeal is? The ability to deal with the underground information network. Rumours, pick up scores, score big deals....

Both are pretty obviously knowledge of how the Street works. Difference is, at +5 Streetdeal you can penetrate the secrets of all but the most powerful crime families. Boostergangers, extortionists, hit-and-run artists, most crime families whether Mafia or Yakuza. Their secrets are yours.

Whereas Streetwise +5 lets you arrange a murder contract or "know a few mobsters". Yeah. Kind of a major step down from +5 Streetdeal, isn't it? Where you can make serious mobsters hop by the handful, because you know where they live, who they screw and what they do.

That's because Streetdeal is the bomb. Streetwise is handy and lets you get stuff done on the street. It's a pick-up skill for non-deal-makers.

Your problem is, it's very GM-dependent. Without any formal rules to decide how it applies and how potent it is, it's very much up to the GM. You could pick up a copy of Wildside, the Fixer supplement. that explains a bunch. But if your GM doesn't grasp how potent Streetdeal is, you have a problem, because you need him or her as an active partner.

This...

Streetwise and Streetdeal are kinda overlapping in scope and application in my opinion and when it comes to special abilities pondsmith kinda dropped the ball. Solos are gods who get boosts to skills....everyone else gets some kind of nan tangible element that adds to nothing. Nomads can call on family...medias have credibility...cops have authority...per 2020 none of those skills really DO anything to make the character save give a rank amongst whatever organization they belong too. Wisdom fixed that with interlock unlimited to make the different Special Abilities a little more playable. Not only did he do that...but he also added a few classes to make things a little more variable. In all honesty Pondsmith created most of the the system, but did a horrible job with some of the classes. By the book solos are unbelievable overpowered compared to everyone else. Interlock changed that to create a bit of balance.

And while I would agree that streetwise and streetdeal are two different things...i would also argue you can't have one without having the other. Streetwise/streetdeal as written in interlock, SHOULD stack in the application of skill check. This ensures not only does your fixer KNOW the person he needs to talk to get it done...he also know HOW to approach them. Tangibles that may not be very important to the game as a whole, but make a difference on the skill side of things. I think they are hand in hand skills. Streetwise to know how to get ahold of whomever to set up the meeting, Streetdeal to get the business part done, and both very important to the task as a whole.

 

[Sardukhar]

The whole Special Abilities are so haphazard. Some boost skills. Some replace. Some have these weird-ass mechanics ( Rockerboy) that have to be wedged in sideways to be useable in any real way in the game.

Your GM is going to have to adapt, just like the rest of us. One trick is to make sure every SA has a skill it boosts, allowing the pros to go well beyond the amateurs. Solos already have Initiative and Awareness. Streetdeal and Streetwise are pretty obvious boosts. Authority is added to a whole SLEW of Cool-related checks.

If he wants to keep Streetdeal separate, fine. Then use it as written. Get info on crazy-level Street secrets and use that for leverage. Don't bother with streetwise - just use Streetdeal to get phone numbers and then use the info from the previous Streetdeal check to make people do what you want. Or, if sanity is seen, use the usual Streetwise rules and let Streetdeal stack.

 

[wisdom000]

Have you thought of giving Interlock Unlimited a try.... the changes to Special Abilities and Skills might interest you.

 

[razorjack780]

What is Interlock Unlimited? And where can I find it?

 

[doomblade403x]

A wonderful question my good man...the post right above you has the link in their signature

 

[TheCybersmily]

Streetdeal was made into a really nice SA in Widlside. Well I really like the buying of contacts. Matter of fact Wildside made Streetdeal a great SA to have. But I'm in agreement that the SA should have roughly equal benefits.

 

[wisdom000]

What is Interlock Unlimited? And where can I find it?

Interlock is the rules system that Cyberpunk 2020 uses.

INTERLOCK UNLIMITED is a Fan project re-imagining of R.Talsorians Interlock Rules System and as such was designed not only to cover any genre, setting, or situation, but remain fully compatible with all games built on the Interlock System. It repairs or replaces the broken rules, streamlines the things that work, and adds new rules in to cover most anything.

You can get the core rules, the character sheets, the gm screen, the Cyberpunk 2020 conversion guide, and the Martial Arts, vehicle, and drug add-ons all in one free package by going here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/102797457/I...rlock Unlimited for Cyberpunk 2020 bundle.rar

 

[kynnath]

Hi, I'm Razorjack's newbie DM. Not just the first time I use the system, one of the first times I DM as well. He mentioned the site and I'd be interested in getting some feedback. Hopefully a bit more objective than my players

I have some doubts regarding the starting cash. I wanted to limit the special ability stat to 5, for a couple reasons. First, it doesn't make much sense to me that a starting character should be able to command a powerful position in the world, especially when investing in a higher position takes away from their actual ability at that job. Having a Sysop that can't tie his shoelaces seems kind of silly. And yet, the system allows it, and a player that did that could start with 10k or 20k eb. Who would pay such a large salary to an unproven, inexperienced netrunner? I mean, ok, if daddy is head of the corporation sure but that wouldn't normally be the case.

The other reason is that as a newbie DM, I'd feel more comfortable if the players start small and grow together with my own experience. Otherwise, the player's abilities would quickly outstrip my ability to competently challenge them. They'd either steam roll the scenarios or I'd overcompensate and TPK them.

I houseruled a limit of 5 for the special ability, meaning they are just starting out. Rookies. But given the way the starting cash works, they'd be starting with between 1k and 4k eb. For many characters, that's not going to be much. No one can afford cybergear (just the installation for anything but cosmetics starts at 500 eb), for example, which removes the cyber from cyberpunk.

So, is this by design? Are players who don't pump the special ability at character creation meant to struggle for that sweet first piece of cyberware? Or is everyone supposed to start as Elite Solos and Crime Bosses? Is it intended to make the option of signing up for the 'free' 10k tempting?

I also considered giving them some sort of eb boost based on life events or starting age, meaning older characters or those who went through some experiences would have obtained a bit more cash to start with.

Anyway, I was hoping to get some opinions to help me make up my mind.

 

[doomblade403x]

Few ways you could handle that...

Number one

Strating characters do not pay surgery cost for cyberware. Your health plan was great when you got that ware...not anymore.

Number two

Wealth option per interlock perks

Number three

SELL OUT

That should handle all the money woes in three easy steps.

 

[Sardukhar]

Either they start out poor, which is fine for beginning characters, or they Sell Out. Selling out is RP heaven and starting poor has the advantages of growth.

If you start out poor, you get a feel for the campaign and what cyber and gear you will need. Poverty can end as quickly as they take on an succeed at a daring job. If you tire of their poverty, have them come into money in some hilarious and plot-twisted way. Lottery wins they didn't enter, inheritances they didn't deserve and weird bequeaths from wealthy patrons they never met are all fun ways to give them wealth and complications.

Also, don't forget Lifepath - additional wealth is often found there.

As a Ref I never limit Special Abilities, actually. I -do- point out that if you have a high Special Ability and not the corresponding skillset it's a) really weird - you better have an explanation and b) you ain't gonna last long, chombatta. Like, two sessions not-long.

Players generally see wisdom and the others make great examples.

 

[wisdom000]

Actually, I take the same road with Interlock Unlimited. I strongly suggest limiting the character to 5 points for Special Abilities... the players can pick multiple special abiltiies (which have been rewritten for IU completely, so they all function like Combat sense, in that they each add to 1-2 relative skills) But they must pick a primary, which must always be a point higher than their other special abilities. The Special Abilities also have minimum skill requirements of 4 to the relevant skills in order to qualify for the special ability.

Depending on the campaign, I also may limit starting skills. For beginning level gutter punks, I limit it to 5, for more advanced level characters, I may limit it to seven with 2 skills able to go to 10, for really high level campaigns, I impose no restrictions.

Although if I am running a cop or military based campaign, they will also get skill bumps based on training....

However, I tend to run long campaigns, some that last years..... so that makes a big difference, and is indicative of the difference between Sardi and my running styles...

 

[Don_Carnage]

I've been playing Interlock Unlimited for 3 years now. It is by far my favorite pen and paper system.

It's also nice having Wisdom000 around to ask questions about rules you aren't sure of and even make suggestions.

 

[Sardukhar]

If he could be trusted. Which he can't.

I was just rereading the Night City Sourcebook and was amused at reading the accounts of NorCal Rangers' laying the smack on those troublesome Nomad tribes outside the city. I thought of Wisdom cursing NCR as he lay flat over the handlebars of his bike to outrun the distant specs of NCR airpower.

Smelly Nomads.

 

[chombatta]

The way I see it, streetwise give you the ettiquette to get in touch with somebody you pay/favor to make it happen, streetdeal make things happen. And if you can make things happen you do know the ettiquette as well. The guy with streetwise can get stuff from a dealer, streetdeal can get it from the source (cheaper and better). Using streetdeal can take some time, but if the fixer with streetdeal know the etiquette to use a dealer if he/she is in a hurry.

 

[doomblade403x]

The way I see it, streetwise give you the ettiquette to get in touch with somebody you pay/favor to make it happen, streetdeal make things happen. And if you can make things happen you do know the ettiquette as well. The guy with streetwise can get stuff from a dealer, streetdeal can get it from the source (cheaper and better). Using streetdeal can take some time, but if the fixer with streetdeal know the etiquette to use a dealer if he/she is in a hurry.

I could be completely off on this however it seems to me not only are the skills linked...streetwise would be a prerequisite of streetdeal. In the ideal in that one has to learn how to crawl before he can walk. It just seems illogical that one could exist without the other in my mind. Streetwise is your that cool dude who comes around sometimes. You know the streets, you know people, and who to talk to in order to get things done. Streetdeal is your ability to put crews together to get a job done...buy wholesale...sell retail. The two skills to me are SOOOOOOO similiar it's hardly worth a separation.

 

[Sardukhar]

I don't think it is worth a separation but again, you could either add them together or just run Streetdeal as being vastly more effective in terms of Difficulty required, than Streetwise is.