CRIME AND THE CITY.... crime as a dynamic element...

[Lolssi83.811]

Just to make it clear, I don't want saves in mid-combat. I think there's something wrong if a bossfight takes an hour

That was actually rather epic (not to mention stressfull). I was mostly controlling healer and AI took care of rest of the group. Running away / kiting drakes while rest of the group hacked away the mommy. And as soon as cooldowns had run out I healed the group then I repeated that for next hour
Yeah shorter would have been better but I just blame my group/gear/level

 

[ReptilePZ]

that was actually rather tedious (not to mention stressfull). I was mostly controlling healer and ai took care of rest of the group. Running away / kiting drakes while rest of the group hacked away the mommy. And as soon as cooldowns had run out i healed the group then i repeated that for next hour >_>

ftfy

 

[Sardukhar]

Nope, absolutely not. If you want to replay an entire mission/episode then it can be your choice not to do manual saves. But forcing it on everybody else? Sadistic, just Sardistic.

.

I am, of course, a big believer in choice. That's why I think you should choose when to save, but you must think about it tactically. I suppose it's sort-of similar to my thoughts about inventory. On the one hand, endless inventory is silly. On the other hand, finite inventory means a choice taken out of the player's hands, a choice made irrelevant.

Endless saves are very similar to Godmode: you're going to win, eventually. It's like using an option to make your character un-defeateable. The cost of screwing up in combat or making truly poor story decisions is...nada. You simply reload. That's not very Cyberpunk.

The other option is to make some combat so hard that - like Dark Souls or Hotline Miami - it's expected you'll die and the quickload mechanic is part of the game. Which is cool but, again, not very Cyberpunk.

If you can undo your screw-ups with a button-press, that removes any element of risk.

 

[dragonbird]

Endless saves are very similar to Godmode: you're going to win, eventually. It's like using an option to make your character un-defeateable. The cost of screwing up in combat or making truly poor story decisions is...nada. You simply reload. That's not very Cyberpunk.

Maybe, but yes, difference in expectations. I expect to win eventually on an RPG video game. It may take 50 attempts to get past a particular point, but eventually I can do it.*

Regarding the impact of poor decision choices, the problem with limiting saves is that it can result in some negative knock-on effects. How do you know that this is a point where you should consider a tactical save? Does the fact that this is your third playthrough mean you can read the future? Does the game give a big visual alert saying "WARNING! THIS DECISION IS IMPORTANT?" Do you need to go and check a wiki to find out if this is important? If you don't know that it's an important decision, you can't decide whether to make a tactical save. And knowing that it's an important decision is, to me, a much bigger problem than the fact that you can reload.

There are better ways of stopping a player from "just reloading" after a poor story decision. Don't tell the player that the bad thing that happens to them later is because of this decision. Delay the consequence for 5 play-hours, so that the player will decide to just live with it, and make a mental note to do things differently the next time. A bad decision may lock out some options later in the game, make some things harder, but, in general, you should still be able to finish the game. Even if that isn't very Cyberpunk/PnP.

*Edited for the one exception. Really, REALLY dumb build choices. I'll accept failure because of that.

 

[Sardukhar]

Maybe, but yes, difference in expectations. I expect to win eventually on an RPG video game. It may take 50 attempts to get past a particular point, but eventually I can do it.*

Regarding the impact of poor decision choices, the problem with limiting saves is that it can result in some negative knock-on effects. How do you know that this is a point where you should consider a tactical save? .

Well, that's part of the tactical aspect. Players do get a sense of important moments approaching. Dark caves, important meetings, yeah.

I'm not sure you should expect to win eventually at anything. Kind of removes the game part and makes it more like an interactive story. Which, mind you, as a player I quite enjoy.

I do prefer your examples of clever storytelling to do the job, true. In terms of saves, I'm thinking more combat saves. And, well, I guess conversation.

A lot of this has to do with my cowardice. A friend of mine, Kutaka, played Deus Ex "live" - he didn't reload his decisions or choices unless, you know, dead. And he had a really good time.

I just couldn't make myself do it. I had to -know- you know? Not fifty hours from now on a playthrough, I wanted to see what happens now if I just slap the guy in the face or charge in guns blazing or whatever. I'd still like that option, but I'd like it to be more limited.

On topic, if you commit crimes and are relentlessly hunted by NCPD, it might be good if you couldn't instantly undo your choice. From a storytelling perspective.

Also, if something isn't very Cyberpunk, that's bad. Always bad. Bad bad bad. Except Style Over Substance. I hate that idiot rule. It's bad.

 

[wisdom000]

I am torn on the issue... seriously...

I love me some gritty and nitty... but I am also OCD and a collector.... and I want the toys, I want the toys badly...

 

[wisdom000]

also, i hit 5,000 posts, (disgusting) and do i get to be a netcop? Ironically, no, although now i am one.

Stupid moderator title. We suck.

bwahahhahahahahahahahahaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[Sardukhar]

bwahahhahahahahahahahahaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

<Glare.>

 

[wisdom000]

Snort.... guffaw.... bwah..... hahahha....

 

[dragonbird]

I'm not sure you should expect to win eventually at anything. Kind of removes the game part and makes it more like an interactive story. Which, mind you, as a player I quite enjoy.

Not everything, just story-based RPGs. On other games - strategy, shooters, I've no problem with the fact that you might not win every time.

You need a "Save" mechanism of some kind, because you can't play in a single session, and because, realistically, if you tell EVERY player that they need to throw away 20 hours of gaming because of a dumb decision, an awful lot of them will just say "Fuck it, I'm going to play something else, and never buy another game from this developer". Hardcore permadeath should be a player choice.

And if you're providing a save mechanism, why limit it? A reload is a reload - it doesn't benefit the player to be forced to replay the last 30 minutes instead of just the last 30 seconds.

And NOT allowing manual saves "on demand" does, in my mind, place a restriction on how long a delay the developers can put between choice and consequence. Because players do want to explore the different alternatives, so you need to be able to create that branching fork.

And Wisdom's example? It came up recently in another thread - if you commit a crime and get seen, then the NPC's comes after you and you get killed, and then reload. If you don't get seen, you play on but then some corrupt cop approaches you three days later, and you pay up (or kill him) because you don't want to throw away three days of gaming. Then, after you finish the game, you go back and see what would have happened differently if you hadn't committed that crime, and discover some unexpected side-story about said cop that you had no idea was in the game.

 

[wisdom000]

Not everything, just story-based RPGs. On other games - strategy, shooters, I've no problem with the fact that you might not win every time.

You need a "Save" mechanism of some kind, because you can't play in a single session, and because, realistically, if you tell EVERY player that they need to throw away 20 hours of gaming because of a dumb decision, an awful lot of them will just say "Fuck it, I'm going to play something else, and never buy another game from this developer". Hardcore permadeath should be a player choice.

This too.... I actually brought this up a looooooooooooong time ago back in the "save game thread".

And if you're providing a save mechanism, why limit it? A reload is a reload - it doesn't benefit the player to be forced to replay the last 30 minutes instead of just the last 30 seconds.

And NOT allowing manual saves "on demand" does, in my mind, place a restriction on how long a delay the developers can put between choice and consequence. Because players do want to explore the different alternatives, so you need to be able to create that branching fork.

[

This too, which is why, even though I like Sards method, it should only be used for the most insane of difficulty levels.

And Wisdom's example? It came up recently in another thread - if you commit a crime and get seen, then the NPC's comes after you and you get killed, and then reload. If you don't get seen, you play on but then some corrupt cop approaches you three days later, and you pay up (or kill him) because you don't want to throw away three days of gaming. Then, after you finish the game, you go back and see what would have happened differently if you hadn't committed that crime, and discover some unexpected side-story about said cop that you had no idea was in the game.

My only problem with that scenario is "how did the cop know?" Seriously... the point of me not being seen and being a pro, is that no one knows, especially the cops....

 

[dragonbird]

My only problem with that scenario is "how did the cop know?" Seriously... the point of me not being seen and being a pro, is that no one knows, especially the cops....

Well, you did limit me a bit by using that as the example
And you know, unseen witness hiding in a dumpster, forensic evidence, some friend who grassed on you, wild guess hoping that this time he scored lucky. All the usual cop stuff.

 

[wisdom000]

hmm, as long as I can respond with "cop choked to death on donut in ally, no witnesses"

 

[dragonbird]

hmm, as long as I can respond with "cop choked to death on donut in ally, no witnesses"

*alley, unless you're planning cannibalism too. Which also works for me as a good scenario.

 

[wisdom000]

yes?

 

[Sardukhar]

*alley, unless you're planning cannibalism too. Which also works for me as a good scenario.

..Suuure you're a Newb at cpunk. Not.

Hey, Wisdom, do you remember what my stance was on Saves in that save game thread? I don't.

Anyway, to answer a couple points, you limit saves for the same reason you limit player health: boundaries create adventure and tension. Save anywhere is pretty much an invulnerability switch. I'm using it in Shadowrun Returns, ( just added) and it's both really handy, because who wants to jog across the same fifty yards again and again, as well as detracting from my game experience: tough fights simply aren't anymore.

I dunno.

I like save anywhere, I just think it can be used to make the game too easy by far - and also as an out for crappy fight balance, as an aside.

Hey! I remember, Wisdom! Didn't we come to the conclusion that there should be various Modes of Diff for saves as well as a variety of factors?

Yo know what you guys should see? The Options menu for Thief 4. Just superb.

 

[wisdom000]

..Hey! I remember, Wisdom! Didn't we come to the conclusion that there should be various Modes of Diff for saves as well as a variety of factors?.

Yup, and for highest difficulty you wanted a "you die thats it" setting, because you are hardcore like that... I tried telling you that was crazy talk, but you were all frothy at that point and said "yeah and after you die, the game should continue on without you, and you should have to watch it, and watch the NPC who took your place do stupid annoying shit while you scream at the tv yelling "I could do that so much better"... but you can't do it better, because you decided to loot the garbage can and the bozos rigged an ied to a box of pizza with a few rusts still in it... you failed your character, you failed yourself, you failed CDPR, and you failed Uncle Mike, who was counting on you!"

or something like that anyway...

 

[Sardukhar]

Yup, and for highest difficulty you wanted a "you die thats it" setting, because you are hardcore like that... I tried telling you that was crazy talk, but you were all frothy at that point and said "yeah and after you die, and you failed Uncle Mike, who was counting on you!"

or something like that anyway...

No, no..I think that was it pretty much. Yup.

God I want this game so bad. It's like every cell in my body is screaming with need. This must be what heroin withdrawal feels like.

/weakness off.

FINE I'M FINE. I can wait. And do another 10,000 deadlifts.

 

[wisdom000]

it's only another year... at least...

 

[Lolssi83.811]

Going back to the saving before decisions. I rarely load to see how other choices play out, unless we have conversation wheel where I don't see what my guy is actually going to say. I remember plenty times in games when I pick something and the character blurts out something totally different than I expected, those times I load.

Also I don't need or care game saying "THIS IS IMPORTANT CHOICE!" feels bit immersion breaking. I wanna live with my choices (in games. Oh the real life choices I could take back...). But it is not biggy if the game tells me it beforehand.