Crunch

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Salfin

Forum regular
Have you ever worked long hours? Extra days? Slept at work? Got 2 hours of sleep between shifts, broken up? Not once or twice but for weeks, or months?

I know its been recognized and talked about, and I know its common in the game development community. I really think the crunch is the fundamental problem here. You can't just make up for poor planning, and because they did it with Witcher 3 I think it taught them a bad lesson.

Failures in planning, buisness and management lead to a over year long crunch we are told.

No one is going to do quality work in that kind of environment. No one is going to be creative, morale plummets, resiliency drops, interpersonal problems spring up, efficiency declines.

Theres a lot or blame flying around. CDPR stands for a lot of great things. No DRM. No microtrabsactional cheap DLC. I think crunching is 'just how its done', but its time for the game industry to grow up. I think they should turn their back on the crunch. And if they won't, we shouldn't support them.
 

Myajha

Forum regular
I know the crunch is the new crusade in the community now, but the crunch isn't the problem, never was. It's a symptom, not the "fundamental problem".

The issue here is that the game development community sees no reason not to crunch. Gamers, that's us, push and push and push for a game, delays are met with indignity and people cancelling orders. Money talks, and we buy games that come out on time, and are polished. Added to the fact that most game coders (the employees) have no recourse but to crunch or quit.

We, the gamers though, are the problem. Our community is impatient, unforgiving, and have short memories. As long as we buy games that come out on time, and don't buy games that are delayed to ensure perfection companies will always insist on crunch to meet our unrealistic demands.

Added into the fact that most, if not all, game companies are run by managers who are more interested in their bottom lines, then in quality games and their employees, and it just becomes toxic. CDPR may have once been a small indie company dedicated to games and the ideals of great games for great gamers, but today it's a whore just like any other big game company willing to sell just about everything, at the lowest quality possible, with little or no morals for a few extra dollars, just like all the other big game companies.

If you think CDPR cares about you, you're just wrong, you're nothing more then a wallet they want to dip their hands into, with as little effort as possible.

Crunch is a symptom of greed, gamers wanting games "on time" as if we set the schedule, and managers wanting max money for little investment, with the employees stuck in the middle and with little or no recourse.
 

Salfin

Forum regular
I know the crunch is the new crusade in the community now, but the crunch isn't the problem, never was. It's a symptom, not the "fundamental problem".

The issue here is that the game development community sees no reason not to crunch. Gamers, that's us, push and push and push for a game, delays are met with indignity and people cancelling orders. Money talks, and we buy games that come out on time, and are polished. Added to the fact that most game coders (the employees) have no recourse but to crunch or quit.

We, the gamers though, are the problem. Our community is impatient, unforgiving, and have short memories. As long as we buy games that come out on time, and don't buy games that are delayed to ensure perfection companies will always insist on crunch to meet our unrealistic demands.

Added into the fact that most, if not all, game companies are run by managers who are more interested in their bottom lines, then in quality games and their employees, and it just becomes toxic. CDPR may have once been a small indie company dedicated to games and the ideals of great games for great gamers, but today it's a whore just like any other big game company willing to sell just about everything, at the lowest quality possible, with little or no morals for a few extra dollars, just like all the other big game companies.

If you think CDPR cares about you, you're just wrong, you're nothing more then a wallet they want to dip their hands into, with as little effort as possible.

Crunch is a symptom of greed, gamers wanting games "on time" as if we set the schedule, and managers wanting max money for little investment, with the employees stuck in the middle and with little or no recourse.

Any sense that consumers made them release ot early is an illusion. What 'pushing' exists? No such thing happened. We would have bought the game in 2021 or 2022 or whenever. Canceling a pre-order doesn't mean much as the product doesn't exist.

I agree that greed is a huge problem in diluting the incentives. But if the managers know they can fix planning issues with a crunch then they can pass the buck.
 

Myajha

Forum regular
Any sense that consumers made them release ot early is an illusion. What 'pushing' exists? No such thing happened. We would have bought the game in 2021 or 2022 or whenever. Canceling a pre-order doesn't mean much as the product doesn't exist.

I agree that greed is a huge problem in diluting the incentives. But if the managers know they can fix planning issues with a crunch then they can pass the buck.

I hate to break it to you, but you're as much to blame for the crunch as the managers are. How much push back was CDPR getting because they delayed the game how many times before?

But there's also the fun fact that well over 13 million copies were sold, it's a much higher number because of all the returns don't count into that number, and none of the returns were do to the crunch, but to buggy games.

That's well over 13 millions people, like you, who will preach against crunch, but will still support a company that uses it as a tool. That means the game is more important to you then the crunch ever was.

The only reason we're having this discussion now is that the crunch happened and the game wasn't finished. If the game was a beautiful game of perfection, no one would care about the crunch. Which means you and I don't give a damn about the crunch, because we still paid 60 usd to play this game.

We're mad that the game is unfinished, crunch or no crunch.

Now why they heck should managers care about crunch when players don't really care about it, we just want a finished game, period.

You're just using the crunch to try and justify the fact that the game should have been finished, which is true, but had it been delayed again, how much push back would CDPR get from it's customers and it's investors?
 
I think there needs to be better laws regarding how much and how long employers can have their employees work overtime. And better consumer protection laws for video games in regard to the number of product defects they can have and the number of missing advertised features.

Both would keep the management and investors in check so to speak. When it comes down to things, they are the ones who are always pushing the teams to release products before they are ready.

From my experiences in actual closed beta testing (the ones you have sign a nda to get into) for other games; the actual developers tend to be passionate about their work, mainly because it’s something they work years on. And can never talk to anyone about it due to nda.

It’s normally the upper management including the board, and investors who don’t care much about the project, just how much money it will make them. I find they tend to treat the developers poorly. And want to advertise the project before it is ready or make drastic changes to project and want it done in a unrealistic amount of time.
 
"The only reason we're having this discussion now is that the crunch happened and the game wasn't finished. If the game was a beautiful game of perfection, no one would care about the crunch. Which means you and I don't give a damn about the crunch, because we still paid 60 usd to play this game. "


This.

Poor Developers were over stressed, the game is bad now, so crunch is a bad thing.

But if the game was exceeding expectations nobody would be saying man I sure wish they delayed all this awesomeness so the Developers had more free time, or maybe they could have taken some of these hardcore porn/snuff braindances out.
 

Salfin

Forum regular
I hate to break it to you, but you're as much to blame for the crunch as the managers are. How much push back was CDPR getting because they delayed the game how many times before?

But there's also the fun fact that well over 13 million copies were sold, it's a much higher number because of all the returns don't count into that number, and none of the returns were do to the crunch, but to buggy games.

That's well over 13 millions people, like you, who will preach against crunch, but will still support a company that uses it as a tool. That means the game is more important to you then the crunch ever was.

The only reason we're having this discussion now is that the crunch happened and the game wasn't finished. If the game was a beautiful game of perfection, no one would care about the crunch. Which means you and I don't give a damn about the crunch, because we still paid 60 usd to play this game.

We're mad that the game is unfinished, crunch or no crunch.

Now why they heck should managers care about crunch when players don't really care about it, we just want a finished game, period.

You're just using the crunch to try and justify the fact that the game should have been finished, which is true, but had it been delayed again, how much push back would CDPR get from it's customers and it's investors?
So what you're saying is that we knew about the crunch and we bought it anyway?

Actually I see what you're saying. Fair point. And actually thats sort of what I was suggesting, we don't support such companies.
 
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Icinix

Forum veteran
Tough call on morality.

Do we not buy the game at all, as a collective, potentially do massive financial damage to the company and cause mass lay offs, only after the company dead and buried pick up and buy it during a sale for 90% off? Or stand by our morals and never support the company to make a stand?

...there is no win here.

The buck stops with managers, directors, investors.

Edit : Also maybe never ever announce or tease a product until you're in the home stretch.
 
Tough call on morality.

Do we not buy the game at all, as a collective, potentially do massive financial damage to the company and cause mass lay offs, only after the company dead and buried pick up and buy it during a sale for 90% off? Or stand by our morals and never support the company to make a stand?

...there is no win here.

The buck stops with managers, directors, investors.

Edit : Also maybe never ever announce or tease a product until you're in the home stretch.

Well we can't go back. But we can move forward. We would hurt ourselves by buying rushed poorly developed games. Cyberpunk is incredible as a mere act of sheer will.

I'm glad for CDPR to be successful off of cyberpunk. Ive played it quite a bit. I appreciate it a bit more the longer I've played it, but I also see the holes a bit more. But I see my own mistake clearly now.

I guess I can only say for myself, I'm at a point in my life where I have better things to do then support this crap. I just hope they at least address it.
 
"The only reason we're having this discussion now is that the crunch happened and the game wasn't finished. If the game was a beautiful game of perfection, no one would care about the crunch. Which means you and I don't give a damn about the crunch, because we still paid 60 usd to play this game. "


This.

Poor Developers were over stressed, the game is bad now, so crunch is a bad thing.

But if the game was exceeding expectations nobody would be saying man I sure wish they delayed all this awesomeness so the Developers had more free time, or maybe they could have taken some of these hardcore porn/snuff braindances out.

I don't doubt that the general hate around this game amplifies the discussion of crunch as well, but it's really not just that.

Crunches have received pretty widespread criticism for a while now. CDPR received hate about the crunch the moment they announced they would do it. Rockstar got scolded because of the Read Dead Redemption 2 crunch.

This issue has been in public eye for some time now. Although, it hasn't amounted to meaningful action yet... We scold them, but don't hesitate to buy their games anyway... Myself included.
 
I don't doubt that the general hate around this game amplifies the discussion of crunch as well, but it's really not just that.

Crunches have received pretty widespread criticism for a while now. CDPR received hate about the crunch the moment they announced they would do it. Rockstar got scolded because of the Read Dead Redemption 2 crunch.

This issue has been in public eye for some time now. Although, it hasn't amounted to meaningful action yet... We scold them, but don't hesitate to buy their games anyway... Myself included.

I work in EMS. I know all about long hours, back to back shifts, working all day then finally falling asleep only to be woken up and then going on another call in the middle of the nigh. Then get 45 minutes of more sleep and show up at work at 0600 for your next one.

You can do that for a while, a good long while. But eventually you become like a zombie, going through the motions, you get to where you can't concentrate or carry on a whole conversation. You can't think clearly and you generally become angry and resentful. Eventually no matter how much you rest you're like a car thats had its check engine light on too long with no service. You're not quite the same, and you never will be.

A lot of industries have that crap, but more and more are realizing how dangerous it is. How inefficient it is, how it hurts retention and costs more money and more pain in the long run then it did help in the short run.
 
I hate to break it to you, but you're as much to blame for the crunch as the managers are. How much push back was CDPR getting because they delayed the game how many times before?
I unterstand your point, I got my own experience.
But nobody told the managment to go public 2012 with the announcement that they will make a game with the CP tabletop as background. And nobody told them to set the releasedate in April 2020 (and Sep. and Nov etc). Of course this generates pressure.
GTA needed 5 years, W3 4-5, the high detailed RDR2 7-8 years, even the c&p Assassins Creed's 3-4 years. If they had told the public:"We started 2016 after Blood&Wine and this is a big open world, we want to make a storybased RPG, with proper NPC/Police/Driver-AI, many cutscene as compensation for the firstperson (grr) so don't expect a relase before 2022 or even 2023," there would have been no or far less pushback. There are other fish in the sea, people would've played that.
And I really don't know how they ever thought they could make a polished OW-RPG in 4 years.

Of course "I" am the problem, too. I had a bad feeling at the first news came out with crunch etc. 2017? That the structure might be not that optimal, as I already said: own experience.
But I forgot it, was to optimistic. Shame on me, learned my lesson :giveup: .
 
The fundamental problem are predetermined release dates. The public expects them and they help build hype, so companies like to announce them. But they are what creates the pressure that leads to the crunch in the first place. Because pushing back release dates is bad publicity. Had a release date not been announced, CDPR could've easily finished the game before releasing it. But once you dare making a prediction, you're in a bind.
 
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