Cultural disconnection and CDPR

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Cyberpunk 2077 is not a game about social commentary c.a. 2019, it's a game about a dystopian world in 2077. Attempting to "read" current social issues into the game is just as ludicrous as attempting to judge ancient Rome thru the lens of contemporary morals.

Context.

Context is, must be, the gauge of any work of fiction. Do the content, values, and morals "fit" in the framework of the society as it's presented? No one has to agree with the content, it only needs to logically result from the fictional setting.
 
There's also the part where American, duh Californian culture is the dominant one, it's like the least prone to such problems one in the world.
 
Cyberpunk 2077 is not a game about social commentary c.a. 2019, it's a game about a dystopian world in 2077. Attempting to "read" current social issues into the game is just as ludicrous as attempting to judge ancient Rome thru the lens of contemporary morals.

Context.

Context is, must be, the gauge of any work of fiction. Do the content, values, and morals "fit" in the framework of the society as it's presented? No one has to agree with the content, it only needs to logically result from the fictional setting.

at the same time as a setting with a lot of body modification some how having nothing to say about (for instance) disability and body image dimorphism or the like would be seemingly failing to address the questions you have asked.

Is a tight rope to walk, but one you have to try or what is the point?
 
at the same time as a setting with a lot of body modification some how having nothing to say about (for instance) disability and body image dimorphism or the like would be seemingly failing to address the questions you have asked.

Is a tight rope to walk, but one you have to try or what is the point?

yeah thats very true, they seem to go the way of bombastic GTA, Keanu Rock Star and swearing ... lots of swearing
but w3 promo materials were also rather shallow
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Hopes are they'll smuggle some actual depth, if we're lucky not in the side quests alone.
 
it's in the futur..

There are no rulez how it should look similar to...sound like..feel like.....has these kind of peeps..or not .

It's the futur! It be stinky, it be dangerous, it be beautiful, gritty, harsh..whatever . It be fun mostly!
 
I started to worry about this cultural disconnect when I saw the character of Jacky and him being a super stereotype of the average Cholo and his dialogue being so full of slang that it came across as super cringy.
As much as they claim it to be heavily influenced by realism, i find that a bit of cheesiness in RPGs have a certain charm to it. So it's more like stylized realism. TW3 was more of a moving painting and literature rather than something i would see in real life. Dunno, I just couldn't see the same kind of realism approach i see from Rockstar or Naughty Dog. I expect themes and characters to be a little bit more exaggerated here.
 
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I started to worry about this cultural disconnect when I saw the character of Jacky and him being a super stereotype of the average Cholo and his dialogue being so full of slang that it came across as super cringy.
you have to keep in mind that this is a different timeline/world that what we have and expect to have here. So the heavy slang use could be just a common thing in that other world or just in the area where he grew up.
 
Just found this thread and I have to say that it hasn't any sense and is very offensive toward Poland and Europe.... I suppose who started this thread haven't been in both of them and in particular in Poland that is a modern country of the European Union. Culturally Europe and North America are the exact same thing with the same values. Please avoid to offend the cultural value of population you have just read about on a book...
 
Just found this thread and I have to say that it hasn't any sense and is very offensive toward Poland and Europe.... I suppose who started this thread haven't been in both of them and in particular in Poland that is a modern country of the European Union. Culturally Europe and North America are the exact same thing with the same values. Please avoid to offend the cultural value of population you have just read about on a book...

I can't see what you may find offensive in this tread. I totally disagree with you about USA and Europe being culturally the same thing - there is big differences in mentality and values (not saying that some are better or worse, it's just different), that may often lead to misunderstandings (if you ever saw a film about any European country made in USA you know what I mean).

I would even add that you'll probably find some strong differences between different European countries too, but that's not the topic.

The ideas behind it's that when a certain country is making something in a setting placed quite far abroad, they may be a big list of cliches and preconceptions. If there is Russia in an american film, there will be snow, even if it's supposed to be in July somewhere near Rostov. If there is France in a Japanese anime you'll be pretty sure that Paris will look more like it looked in the 18th century then now.

Obviously these is often low-cost cultural productions (or those who are destined only to the local market), but even big budget products may have similar problems. So it may be a legit source of worrying. I hoped until the end (based on the very first trailer) that the game will take place in a unnamed city/country (for several different reasons), the fact that they took a real place was a turn enough for me to not precommand the game.
 
I remember seing gameplay of Deus EX Mankind divided - terrible fake Russian accent everywhere (except some of the full Czech ambient audio), all streets named "Obstacle" for some reason... Couldn't force myself to play it after that. Especially after keep hearing misspelled "Vaklav" (which happens to be my true name).

But I do not expect it will be the case with Cyberpunk. I mean, not only Mike Pondsmith works closely with the team, but here in Europe, the USA represent itself quite a lot, be it films and series, music, food, politics, youtubers, games...
I meam - I know much more about USA and their problems than f.e. about Poland - our neighbours. And I did not even choose it, but some of the sources above will reflect it rather soon than later.

Also, I remember the video from E3 when someone excited shouting "They've got mine people in the game!" - which is opposite of my reaction to Deus Ex. So it seems they do care.

*Found the video on Twitter:
In short, if you are worried about too much stereotypes then it is already pretty accurate compare to other games where there are too many completely wrong stereotypes. And for dystopia dark future, I think that some differences to real world is rather desirable.
Not that it is up to me to decide how much is too much... but one character being too stereotipical seems to be no reason to worry about.
 
In addition to some of the input already posted, I'd like to give my "two eddies" worth: The America of Cyberpunk 2013/2020 (The pnp's) and the America of Cyberpunk 2077 have one thing in common: They are BOTH speculative fiction. A great big "what if" scenario. Does the genre have some similarities to the real world, of course, or else it wouldn't be believable. But, all are, at their core, speculative fiction. Honestly, I don't understand why some people see this as a big deal anyway.
 
In addition to some of the input already posted, I'd like to give my "two eddies" worth: The America of Cyberpunk 2013/2020 (The pnp's) and the America of Cyberpunk 2077 have one thing in common: They are BOTH speculative fiction. A great big "what if" scenario. Does the genre have some similarities to the real world, of course, or else it wouldn't be believable. But, all are, at their core, speculative fiction. Honestly, I don't understand why some people see this as a big deal anyway.

Yep. Mike's vision was supposed to be how things would be like in the future from an "alternate 80s world perspective". So yeah, not the real world. Just certain levels of believability, that though inaccurate irl, COULD potentially happen if society had made different decisions. If they wanted to go nuts with the cultural representation realism, they should've made the net similar to ours since internet culture is also a theme.
 
I am not in the least bit worried about this. CDPR is awesome. Mike Pondsmith is awesome. They got this.
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If you want to avoid an ultra-woke take on a future fragmented North America circa 2077 when viewed from 2019, there is one essential key criterion: don't make the game in the USA.
Seriously, not joking.
I don't understand. So just "don't do certain things to avoid people being upset". nah.... Look how great CDPR's work of art has been thus far! It's beautiful, and rich with so many beautiful different kinds of people. It's brutally honest and sincere and just amazingly intense and Cyber and Punk. It's a masterful representation of the dystopian cyberpunk world. I'm not really a fan of "woke" stuff, and seriously there should never be any fear from anyone trying to create Art like this. This is Art. This beautiful game is Art. just my honest opinion.
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at the same time as a setting with a lot of body modification some how having nothing to say about (for instance) disability and body image dimorphism or the like would be seemingly failing to address the questions you have asked.
Is a tight rope to walk, but one you have to try or what is the point?
Your post inspired me, but it's more like a reply to everyone. My reply is: "lets just forget the tight-rope. Lets forget about the egg shells of stepping. Lets in the words of Mike Pondsmith "Stop Telling me what I should be offended by", as he says, lets choose to actually be ONended, instead of OFFended. If we are ONended by the whole game of Cyberpunk2077 it will be much more fun!

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it's in the futur..
There are no rulez how it should look similar to...sound like..feel like.....has these kind of peeps..or not .
It's the futur! It be stinky, it be dangerous, it be beautiful, gritty, harsh..whatever . It be fun mostly!
The fun is the important!
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Dunno, I just couldn't see the same kind of realism approach i see from Rockstar or Naughty Dog. I expect themes and characters to be a little bit more exaggerated here.
That's interesting. I never got a "real" kind of feel from any GTA game, even the newest ones. There's just something "je ne sais quoi" about those games that prevented me from getting a "real" feel from them. Cyberpunk2077 has much more soul, much more personality. Feels Alive.
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I can't see what you may find offensive in this tread.
I find everyone being offended, offensive. (just a joke)
p.s. Why do some people say Jackie is a stereotype? I didn't get that vibe at all, he just seems like a Bro, as in a very good friend. He has more personality than most people I see every day (IN REAL LIFE) Lol.

You can see here in this short clip of the demo footage (youtube released 48 minute demo thing) how Jackie is actually taking very vital medicine into his neck because he's such a good friend that he suffers from a rare illness called "TOTAL BRO OVERDOSE" and he needs medicine sometimes to just calm down his total bro-ness. That's how much of a bro Jackie is! :D

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Yep. Mike's vision was supposed to be how things would be like in the future from an "alternate 80s world perspective". So yeah, not the real world. Just certain levels of believability, that though inaccurate irl, COULD potentially happen if society had made different decisions. If they wanted to go nuts with the cultural representation realism, they should've made the net similar to ours since internet culture is also a theme.
The story even goes, their internet was sort of similar to ours, but then they had to put it behind the "black wall" because of the virus's and AI, and then their internet turned into what we see in Cyberpunk2077 after the fact. So pretty cool :D
 
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I can't see what you may find offensive in this tread. I totally disagree with you about USA and Europe being culturally the same thing - there is big differences in mentality and values (not saying that some are better or worse, it's just different), that may often lead to misunderstandings (if you ever saw a film about any European country made in USA you know what I mean).

I would even add that you'll probably find some strong differences between different European countries too, but that's not the topic.

The ideas behind it's that when a certain country is making something in a setting placed quite far abroad, they may be a big list of cliches and preconceptions. If there is Russia in an american film, there will be snow, even if it's supposed to be in July somewhere near Rostov. If there is France in a Japanese anime you'll be pretty sure that Paris will look more like it looked in the 18th century then now.

Obviously these is often low-cost cultural productions (or those who are destined only to the local market), but even big budget products may have similar problems. So it may be a legit source of worrying. I hoped until the end (based on the very first trailer) that the game will take place in a unnamed city/country (for several different reasons), the fact that they took a real place was a turn enough for me to not precommand the game.

I think you're missing the point. This game is based on the lore of a table top RPG that Mike Pondsmith and his company R Talsorian Games created in the late 80's. It is a dystopian vision of neon lit sci-fi noir, seen through a mid-80s, Manga thumbing, stock market crashed, American lens which nowadays should seem retro (the fist book published in '88 was set in 2013).

In this future the U.S. has collapsed economically and broken up into a collection of free states but the Soviet Union still exists. Japan has a huge influence on the American West Coast, while the European Community has become a global superpower (the EU had not existed yet at the time Mike came up with this).

The first core rule book doesn't really focus on non-American cultures, as it is set in Night City and that's where the action is. The kind of distorted American sentiment of the world you described may be spotted in minuscule details here but that really don't seem ill intended. The rest of the world is not left out due to negligence but it simply didn't fit in one book. The core rulebook was meant to give you just enough background to start playing the game and that's what it delivers. The rest was up for your imagination, as in all good RPG.

Still, the rules helped you to define a full origin story for your character and R Talsorian did make up for the sketchier cultural background in their expansion books. These included detailed histories and local peculiarities for all corners of the world in separate volumes. Like 'Home of the Brave' on North-America, where Nomad tribes roam the land in true Mad Max style, or 'Pacific Rim' on the Asian region, dominated by Japan and the United Korea, with China still being run by the Party, and of course 'Eurosource' on the European Community, who got their space station with their super weapon that can throw rocks on any target on the planet (which has proven more effective in ending conflicts than the tactical nukes the U.S. and the Soviets were threatening each other with).

All of the above were constructed with great care and attention to details, seeking out lots of local sources. Mind you, this all started way before the Internet was a thing, so at the time research literally meant visiting those countries or at least having someone who is living there as part of the writer staff, which makes me appreciate their work even better. But despite having access to all the materials Mike's team and the Cyberpunk community has accumulated within the last 3 decades, CD Project Red is taking the same approach of hiring people engrained in the cultures they want to portray, hence they are working with people of Creole descent or people with prosthetic limbs.

Plus the world of Cyberpunk, as much as it seems familiar, it meant to be in many ways different from to our world due to the wars and other political events listed in its timeline. Generally, in Cyberpunk, culture matters a lot less than style and status. After all, people in this world speak streatslang, a universal polyglot mixture of English, French, German, Japanese, and half a dozen other languages.

It's a dystopian world where corporations can buy themselves places on the map, go in with their private armies and call it their own. Night City itself is an artificial place where the lack of indigenous cultures is considered an asset not a shortcoming. At least by the mega corporations who founded the place and use it as their playground for shady businesses and political manipulation. Since California has not just seceded from the Union but got broken up into 2 separate states, Night City was neatly placed in between those two, so that no one governs it but for the gangs and corporations.

It is more like Frank Miller's Sin City than an actual place, a distorted microcosm where people are painted with a broad brush and the relationship between the 'haves' and the 'have nots' is supposed to show you a parallel of not just the present time but of the archetypal ideal human society. It's a broken culture without any overarching narrative other than history crashing down on the little guy. Here everything is broken up into flamboyant individual life stories driven by hedonism or a loosely written moral code. That's the 'punk' essence in Cyberpunk and the collision of these different life paths is what creates the culture of Night City.

And yes, some of it is cliché and stereotypical. But so is life. You can chose to stay on the surface or dive in for deeper meaning. In Cyberpunk however, style comes over substance. Because you need to pretend to stay alive and substance never comes without a price. So don't expect characters more 'real' than the personalities they wear as an avatar. But dare to look deeper under the skin and your own complexions will stare right back at you.

So much about the source material and how it relates to reality. This is what CD Project Red is building upon and this is the world they are trying to make a bit more tangible through our keyboards/ controllers. Oh, and did I mention that the game is not out yet? It could be a bit early to judge, don't you think?
:)
 
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6 million years of Humans migrating around, killing each other, absorbing, sacrificing each other, warring and selling one another, and still today we have other Humans whining about something they think they own ethnically. The only thing any Human owns is the ability to breathe, make noise, and gesture.

Humans are funny.
 
6 million years of Humans migrating around, killing each other, absorbing, sacrificing each other, warring and selling one another, and still today we have other Humans whining about something they think they own ethnically. The only thing any Human owns is the ability to breathe, make noise, and gesture.

Humans are funny.
TFW.jpg
 
So I was wondering how is the Dev team able to make this world feel realistic and American if the script is written in polish and most of the development team is based in Poland? Essentially the script would have to be written by people who have had an outsiders perspective on the American environment.

Well they are working with The creator of Cyberpunk. Are you sure the script is written in Polish? That doesn't seem much likely to me. Also considering how invasive American culture is and how easy it is to track current events on youtube, outsider perspective can get really close to the insider perspective, so there is nothing to worry about.

Also stereotypes exist for a reason. Even if some particular character doesn't sit well with you it's just a question of preference and personal taste, not necesarily a bad sign.
 
That's an interesting perspective but I was pretty sure that
1. many of these themes are fairly simple or international. Despite that us 'mericans have notable gun violence, unless someone at your school started shooting, what you read on the paper isn't different from what a Pole might read.
1.5 I thought Witcher 3 was a general European setting. Maybe I'm ignorant that slavic is not European?
2. Honestly I really struggle to even find the gameplay setting palatable. It's so incredibly dystopian It's uncomforatable and grotesque and mangled. I still want to support CDP and everything they do, but I could not even make myself enjoy watching 2077.
 
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