Cybernetics: Things that seem off?

[jacqsynn]

Cybernetics: Things that seem off?

I am making this post to talk about cyberlimbs how cyber arms can have 4 options and legs can have 3 and the fact that hands and feet take up a option space in the limb.

When reading just the main book, non of the chromes or anything like that which otions don't feel right in some way. For example ok you have your cyberarm which can have 4 options, the hand is one of those and that leaves 3 options left. So you want Reinforced Joints for the extra +5 SDP, but the description for the reinforced joints states the following "The standard joints are removed and replaced with titanium ones" It doesn't say they are bigger and take up more space they are just stronger. This in a way seems to imply that reinforced joints should not take up a cyberlimb option slot. What do you guys think?

I'm not putting a poll on this of course but I figure it would be a quick count to figure which way the vote would go anyway.

 

[wisdom000]

The cyberoption that seemed most off... most ridiculous to me, is the Tool Foot option... I mean the only logical reason for it to exist is so someone can make the obligatory hammer toe joke, otherwise it makes zero sense...

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Perhaps the 'options' should be divided up into two lists; optional extra's, (like pop-up guns and tools,) and modifications, (like alternative materials, reinforcement and styling.)

 

[Weaselwolf]

I've noticed that joint thing as well. Some joints specifically take up slots (or half slots) others not so much.

Here's an oddity: Are bonuses from cyberoptions cumulative?

If I have the Extra-Twist joint in one arm (Or double jointed, or rotating joints or all three) do I get double the bonus from having them in both arms? What about the legs?

Do you need two stealth feet or two climbing feet to get the bonuses at all, or just one? 'Common sense' would dictate that both feet would have to be climbers or stealthers in order to get the bonuses since you use both feet to sneak or climb, but the Eclipse Full Borg has one of each, as ridiculous as that sounds. Does that mean if I have two do I get double bonuses?

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

If I have the Extra-Twist joint in one arm (Or double jointed, or rotating joints or all three) do I get double the bonus from having them in both arms? What about the legs?

I don't think a single ruling would work on this matter.

If the bonuses are from upgrades that affect different 'locations', (taking your example of having both 'Double Jointed' and 'Additional Twist Joint', then these would be situated in different parts of the limb,) then I think the bonuses should be cumulative.

If the bonuses are from the same upgrade location, (for example; life saver skinweave and armoured skinweave,) then the bonuses should not stack.

Do you need two stealth feet or two climbing feet to get the bonuses at all, or just one? 'Common sense' would dictate that both feet would have to be climbers or stealthers in order to get the bonuses since you use both feet to sneak or climb, but the Eclipse Full Borg has one of each, as ridiculous as that sounds. Does that mean if I have two do I get double bonuses?

Good question, it does raise the question of 'stealth-hopping'.

Looking at the wording, it seems that each foot provides a bonus independant of the other, though I would be tempted to allow a synergy bonus:
1 x Stealth Foot = +1 Stealth Skill
2 x Stealth Feet = +3 Stealth Skill combined.

 

[Weaselwolf]

just to clarify, obviously whole-body cyber options shouldn't be bought and stacked multiple times (unless the rules allow it like M&B lace), but single-limb stuff is another question.

If having one double jointed elbow makes you super good at grappling then two should make you better, right? Or is grappling and whatnot done 'per arm' so if I grab you with my right arm only the bonuses for right arm joints applies? Complicated stuff.

Also, how many options do Corvett Cyberlegs come with?
They come with Thickened Mayomers...but is that integral to the leg design or does it take a space? Does the 'corvette system' take a space? What about the upgrade? This one is particularly vexing since I use 'vettes from time to time.

As for feet and hands taking a slot...every reff I've played with has ruled that basic hands and feet do not take a slot, only specialized hands and feet use a slot, since some options could just as easily be moved in whole or in part to a hand. Wolvers, for example, would take up less space in the forearm (where the bulk of the slot space is) if they're allowed to use part of the hand, as opposed to wolvers that must come out of the top of the wrist because the hand is packed full of tools...or at least that was the rationalle for the ruling.

Here's one: Do limb coatings use an option slot? Most reffs I've played with say no since it goes *outside* of the arm, but the lack of spaces in full borg limbs suggests otherwise. (Alpha class has no options installed, but only 3 spots per arm and 2 per leg...is that because of the armor, or because they're accounting for hands and feet?)

 

[Sardukhar]

Ah, some of the classic questions.

I think double-jointed gives you the bonus as long as you have one arm with it.

Thick. Myomers take an option for Corvettes. Standard cyebrleg options. Corvette system does not take a space.

Feet and hands take an options slot, yes. Page 89, MRB. Happily and frequently tossed out by Refs, but that's the base ruling. Which was fine by me. Reason? Second set of limbs doesn't have hands - just guns in that slot. Or whatever.

Coverings are listed under options and would cost a slot. Gleefully thrown out for being dumb.

You need at least one of stealth feet, grip feet, etc, unless specified otherwise. With one, you get the bonuses. With two, more bonuses. Having even one stealth or grip foot makes stealth/climbing easier.

 

[Weaselwolf]

Ah, some of the classic questions.

Indeed...but not always easy to answer.
This is where "common sense" falls by the wayside because either everyone has a different idea of what maks sense, or the rules themselves go against it.

I think double-jointed gives you the bonus as long as you have one arm with it.

But what if you have two?

Thick. Myomers take an option for Corvettes. Standard cyebrleg options. Corvette system does not take a space.

This is how I usually treat it for the sake of balance (after all, price-wise, basic corvettes cost the same as a pair of legs with thickened myomers, have lower HC AND offer the speed bonus. Advanced are only a little more. You;re getting such a huge deal that giving up an extra option spot makes sense)

BUT it could be argued that since it says 'both systems *incorporate* the thickened myomer limb options' that the thick mayo (as my group calls it) is part of the corvette system and thus does not take any options. After all, these boosted leg muscles are a big part of how the legs make you run faster. That's not how I handle it, but I've seen people rule it that way and it makes a degree of sense.

meanwhile, a lot of Reffs throw out Corvettes, Speeding Bullets and Skate Feet entirely because of how they all make Ma completely pointless and don;t cost all that much (especially skate feet)

Feet and hands take an options slot, yes. Page 89, MRB. Happily and frequently tossed out by Refs, but that's the base ruling. Which was fine by me. Reason? Second set of limbs doesn't have hands - just guns in that slot. Or whatever.

And yet if I had a second set of limbs installed I would always give them hands. Why? Because you can still HOLD a gun, but also do everythign else in the world.

But yeah, that is the RAW, but it's something most reffs throw out.

The games I've played, the Reffs have always ruled instead that the hand itself is its own thing. A basic hand comes free with your cyberarm, but you get one hand option space to either incofporate into it or replace entirely (which includes all the various hand availble, plus some cyberweapons and certain specific options t reff's discretion), and/or 5 finger options. We say and/or because many hand options include finger mounted weapons or tools. You could give yoruself quick-change fingers though, that way if you had, say, a Ripper hand, or a Tool Hand, you could buy five quick-change sockets and then be able to replce your ripper blades or finger tools for other cyberfinger options.

One player was so into cyber-fingers that he carried a bandolier of interchangeable digits. The Reff had to come up with his own rules for the HC involved though.

Coverings are listed under options and would cost a slot. Gleefully thrown out for being dumb.

It seems to be ignored by the game itself even. As I said, full borgs have one less option slot than normal per limb...which probably accounts for their normal hands and feet...which means the total body plating they have doesn't take any limb slots

In fact, just to go back to the Eclipse, it has 1 free slot in each leg...and yet it has the following already installed: Armor plating (with included chameleon system), Secret compartments, AND a foot option, which is effectively 3 items per leg, but somehow it has a spare slot in addition.

You need at least one of stealth feet, grip feet, etc, unless specified otherwise. With one, you get the bonuses. With two, more bonuses. Having even one stealth or grip foot makes stealth/climbing easier.

I'm not so sure. Yes, having one foot that makes no noise is objectively quieter than having two feet made of solid metal...but is it enough quieter to really make a difference when, as stated, your other foot is made of solid metal?

you go from...
CLANK!
CLANK!
CLANK!
CLANK!
to...
CLANK!
.............
CLANK!
.............

That's quieter but is it enough to matter? If your other foot is still clanking about you;re still going to be heard.
If your other foot was made of meat and had a nice soft shoe on it then sure, you'd be better off.

Or I suppose you could imagine that since it;s being custom built for a high-end borg, each foot is a sort of stealth-climber hybrid. Not as good as pair of either but at least you've got two silent feet that can climb.

i'm not saying your answers aren;t good and valid, and in fact, I think the same way for the most part. just demonstrating that sometimes there's no easy answer.

 

[Sardukhar]

Well, you can argue nearly any point, but to do it in a way that convinces a Ref is totally another. Or the rest of the players. This, then, is a big element of common sense: the commonality. Pretty much everything I posted works under that rationale. Double-jointed bonus works at least with one arm - feel free to double for two. If it's OP, don't.
Even the one foot - yes, half a clank is quieter than two clanks. Not that cyberlegs clank - the do not reduce stealth checks in default.
Thick myomar counts as an option because, simply, it acts as a listed option does. You could give it for free, but why would you?

If your group on the whole disagrees, then bye bye rule. Going along with the majority is just common sense. You have a real thing against common sense, but it applies in both RL and games - if something doesn't make sense to most people, it probably defies the learnings of daily life and is less relevant to that life.

A common sense approach to common sense: "if it works, use it. If not, don't."

 

[Weaselwolf]

The problem with the phrase 'common sense' is it implies there's a single solution that makes sense to everyone and is somehow not subjective. It's been my experience that this is not the case. Common sense is extremely subjective and unique to the individual. It's essentially a nonentity.

I'm just saying that sometimes there aren't easy answers and that all too often spouting the words 'common sense' is shorthand for "I'm not going to bother thinking this through or explaining it, if you don't agree I'll just imply that you're stupid or lacking in common sense"

 

[Sardukhar]

Oh, I'd say a range of solutions that would apply. The very definition make it non-local. I think we can all agree that Skinweave that is as obvious as body plating is pretty nonsensical and would go against the precepts of common sense - your skin is an armour weave, body plating is plates grafted to your body.

I think a lot of what we talk about in this thread sets off our group alarms. The "coverings" taking an option slot, for example. They do, by the book rule as they are included under options, but really, that makes little sense.

Now, here's another interesting cyberware question:

Can you plate the head and have skinweave around the face as well? Does SKW lose it's integrity if you take it off the skull? Or does the plating go on top? Thoughts?

 

[Weaselwolf]

My thought was that if you wanted to do any kind of subdermal plating and skinweave you had to do the dermal plating first, or else destroy the skinweave and have it reinstalled. After all, you have to cut away large chunks of skin to get the plates in, the graft it back on, that's going to be nearly impossible if your skin shrugs off knives like a joke.

Some of the pricing on certain items that must be bought in pairs isn't clear. Leg Boosters, for example, are 500eb, HC 1d6 and must be bought in pairs...is that price for the pair or per leg? It would be silly to give individual costs for an option that only works in pairs, but if reinforced joints cost 200 per limb with 1HC, and you get both legs with the leg boosters, then you;re getting a crazy value. Not only are you only paying 100eb to ge tthe actual booster system, but you could roll 1 for HC and end up better off than someone with reinforced joints in both legs.

Which brings us to a related question...if the leg booster option includes reinforced joints...does that mean leg boosters take 2 slots per leg, or are the joints part of the leg booster system? I know the booster system says it used 2 options...but it has to be bought in pairs, so is that 2 total or 2 per leg?

It's really a muddy wording.

 

[Sardukhar]

mm. Mm. You make an excellent point here, well worthy of it's own thread: surgical complications in cyber installation, especially add-ons. Most players don't even consider how important the sequence would have to be for things like SKW and then Dermal, but it would really, really matter. I wonder how CDPR will handle cyber upgrades?

Yeah, the pricing and HC occasionally make me blink. I have little issue with fashion costs, something you mention in another thread, but much of the cyber and gear costs elsewhere seem almost haphazard.

I would think 2..options...per..leg? No, pair. Because they say pair. Yeah, 2 options per pair. That makes sense. Mostly. Reinforced joints would..mean another option though..so..2 options per leg. Yes.

Another thought - why do legs have X options? Big legs would have more options, I would say. Sure, Thick Myomar would take up more space in a Dragoon's leg, but a wetbar would take up much less relative space.

As a Ref, I'd allow a PC to have another option or 2 depending on size of limbs.

Heh. A Dragoon with a wet bar. Heh.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

mm. Mm. You make an excellent point here, well worthy of it's own thread: surgical complications in cyber installation, especially add-ons. Most players don't even consider how important the sequence would have to be for things like SKW and then Dermal, but it would really, really matter. I wonder how CDPR will handle cyber upgrades?

I hope something like this does matter because it would certainly make upgrading your character a more strategic activity than just allotting numbers to categories. But of course, I would like to be warned in advance of such complications.

If there are instances in the game where certain sequences of upgrading, or certain combos of upgrades, produce better characters, then making your character will become a game in itself. I think that sounds fun.

 

[Weaselwolf]

mm. Mm. You make an excellent point here, well worthy of it's own thread: surgical complications in cyber installation, especially add-ons. Most players don't even consider how important the sequence would have to be for things like SKW and then Dermal, but it would really, really matter. I wonder how CDPR will handle cyber upgrades?

This is EXACTLY why my Medtechie carries an IMI Chainknife.
Skinweave, subdermal plating, bolt on chest plate, whatever, if I need to stabilize your ass that knife is going through and the bullet is coming out.

"Good news, choomba...I managed to get that slug out of your lung. Bad news, you're gonna need some massive repairs to your chest plate and a six-pack of Weavesver...I suggest the Citrus-Blast flavor, tastes just like Dew."

Yeah, the pricing and HC occasionally make me blink. I have little issue with fashion costs, something you mention in another thread, but much of the cyber and gear costs elsewhere seem almost haphazard.

I would think 2..options...per..leg? No, pair. Because they say pair. Yeah, 2 options per pair. That makes sense. Mostly. Reinforced joints would..mean another option though..so..2 options per leg. Yes.

Now, just to really mess with your head: It says specifically that they CAN be added to Speeding Bullet cyberlegs.
According to Errata, Speeding Bullets only have 1 free space per leg...if that includes the foot I have no idea.

Another thought - why do legs have X options? Big legs would have more options, I would say. Sure, Thick Myomar would take up more space in a Dragoon's leg, but a wetbar would take up much less relative space.

As a Ref, I'd allow a PC to have another option or 2 depending on size of limbs.

For that matter, why do legs have less option space than arms? Arms are much smaller than legs and hands are insanely complex compared to feet. If any leg has less slots it should be arms.

That said, I agree, slots should be based on Body Type.

I hope something like this does matter because it would certainly make upgrading your character a more strategic activity than just allotting numbers to categories. But of course, I would like to be warned in advance of such complications.

If there are instances in the game where certain sequences of upgrading, or certain combos of upgrades, produce better characters, then making your character will become a game in itself. I think that sounds fun.

I always take stuff like that into consideration.
Skinweave isn't so bad. A good monoscalpel can slice through it, but you WILL be taking SP damage after the surgery.
But good luck installing anything under a subdermal chest or skull plate. There are probably ways to remove the plates surgically, but they are going to add time and money to the surgery, at least upgrading the code one level.

Also, if you're doing a bunch of work at once I generally allow for reduced HC, similar to how full borgs work, but that is because I'm a kind and merciful GM...sure...

 

[Sardukhar]

Now, just to really mess with your head: It says specifically that they CAN be added to Speeding Bullet cyberlegs.
According to Errata, Speeding Bullets only have 1 free space per leg...if that includes the foot I have no idea.

Well..goddamn. I guess Speeding Bullet is an exception to the rule?

Skinweave isn't so bad. A good monoscalpel can slice through it, but you WILL be taking SP damage after the surgery.
But good luck installing anything under a subdermal chest or skull plate. There are probably ways to remove the plates surgically, but they are going to add time and money to the surgery, at least upgrading the code one level.

Also, if you're doing a bunch of work at once I generally allow for reduced HC, similar to how full borgs work, but that is because I'm a kind and merciful GM...sure...

Heh. Yeah, I allow for HC shifts depending on who is doing it, where it's being done, when, with what reason, etc. Little adjustments or re-rolls allowed is all, though.

 

[Weaselwolf]

Well..goddamn. I guess Speeding Bullet is an exception to the rule?

That or the reinforced joints are already considered to be part of the same system and thus don't require extra slots...

Heh. Yeah, I allow for HC shifts depending on who is doing it, where it's being done, when, with what reason, etc. Little adjustments or re-rolls allowed is all, though.

I've got a couple different systems (started a new thread for it)
The TLDR version is this.
Accidental limb loss -20% HC for the replacement limb/optic/audio (including processor if needed) but not the options.
Combat limb loss is -15% HC for the replacement (You're still getting a little PTSD for having Charlie blow your arm off)

For every 10% increase in Surgery Cost, you get +1 to the doctor's skill roll, -10% Surgery Damage, and -5% HC cost. The reverse applies for cheaper surgeries (More damage, less skill, more HC loss). Max = +/-50% cost. Hospital conditions don't apply to anything with a Negligible surgery.

And then if you're having a bunch of stuff done all at once you take the minimums on die rolls, and then add any fixed Humanity costs (and modifiers), divide by 6 to roll that many dice. It ends up with the same maximums as the borg way (Take mins on everything, add up and divide by 6 for number of dice), but a higher average usually.

I do this because I pride myself on playing by the same rules as my players and everything I give them I can use against them as well.

 

[jacqsynn]

I also wonder why superchrome takes an option space, I mean chrome plating is so thick isnt it?

 

[wisdom000]

The writeup of speeding bullet legs is pretty slim. However since they are comparable to the Corvette Cyberlegs in performance (Interface, Chrome 4) then yes, reinforced joints as well as enhanced myomar are already included in the package. Since Solo Of fortune was written for 2013, the detail is not quite there, even in the errata updated for 2020.

 

[wisdom000]

I also wonder why superchrome takes an option space, I mean chrome plating is so thick isnt it?

Yeah, that one never really made sense to me either....