Cyberpop 2077: Did we lose the punk?

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Some of the scenes shown in the trailers oddly remind me of the 'Sixth element', with a more clownish and excessive flair than punk. I would have preferred a darker industrial tone. Same for the music. I always associated cyberpunk with the dark industrial, post punk music scene: Susie and the Banshees, Joy Division, The Cure, Bauhaus and other rock bands with more decidedly metal influences like the Queensryche, Sister of Mercy, Nine Inch Nails, Ministry, Ramstein.

I wouldn't mind more goth influences since that's the subculture I identify with. But yeah "clownish" is a good word for how I feel about a lot of the fashions they're showing. While yes, @superpunked2077 's screenshot shows what might be considered punk fashion, I was admittedly seeking a more deathrock brand of punk that comes in all-black.

I personally think synthwave is the best sound for cyberpunk, but some darkwave/coldwave would be nice too. I could definitely see myself listening to Linea Aspera in a cyberpunk universe.
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I love that punk is ultimately a subversion or outright rejection of rigid norms, and here we are wondering if this game isn't punk enough because the high level description of the 4 style themes don't follow a rigid & narrow norm

That may be true of punk philosophy to a certain extent, but whenever a definable subculture is developed around something, you will get new norms for that subculture - no matter how anti-norm the subculture purports to be. At the end of the day punk is a lot of things, just like goth is a lot of things. And while goth is and has always been primarily a music subculture (I'm not versed in punk enough to know whether it's primarily focused on being a music subculture or a philosophy), there is definitely a fashion to the subculture as well. And so to summarize I'm not saying the game isn't punk (as a philosophy) enough, it definitely seems to be that, I'm saying it doesn't seem very punk (as a form alternative fashion).

And that's something I was hoping to see, and that other cyberpunk genre pieces often incorporate. Pris from Bladerunner, for example, has an arguably goth look. As do many elements of fashion from The Matrix. And a lot of the art and other media I immersed myself in when learning about the genre also did. So I have a certain expectation, or at least hope, to see some of that represented in a game that uses the name of the entire genre as it's branding.
 
That may be true of punk philosophy to a certain extent, but whenever a definable subculture is developed around something, you will get new norms for that subculture - no matter how anti-norm the subculture purports to be. At the end of the day punk is a lot of things, just like goth is a lot of things. And while goth is and has always been primarily a music subculture (I'm not versed in punk enough to know whether it's primarily focused on being a music subculture or a philosophy), there is definitely a fashion to the subculture as well. And so to summarize I'm not saying the game isn't punk (as a philosophy) enough, it definitely seems to be that, I'm saying it doesn't seem very punk (as a form alternative fashion).
I don't disagree with this sentiment, but I guess as someone who has been embroiled in punk culture since the 90's I know how much variation I've seen in the subculture in the last 30 years, and can only imagine what the old guard saw. Honestly, most of what I've seen isn't the big mohawks and leather jackets, but white tees with messages written with black marker, ratty thrift store suits "re-tailored" with safety pins and scrap cloth, duct-tape shoes, and a host of other DIY statements either born of poverty or at least aping it. Sure you'll always see a few affluent suburban kids who have the money to buy manic panic and spiked leather, but punk calls to the disenfranchised, and that often meant the broke & disaffected who aren't going to have the luxury of buying the stereotypical garb or working on their hair for hours every day.
The image everyone has of a "punk" is like 5% of the crowd at any punk concert. To me, Entropism with a splash of Kitsch or appropriated/subverted Militarism is what punk looks like.
 
I love that punk is ultimately a subversion or outright rejection of rigid norms, and here we are wondering if this game isn't punk enough because the high level description of the 4 style themes don't follow a rigid & narrow norm

punk is dead, long live punk
:think:In our either following or rejection against the themes and styles, in some way or another, everyone is rebelling against something in a punky kind of way, but it always comes full circle as often in rebelling together to avoid being conformist, often the same groups end up conforming to a specific and rigid non-conformist style. Not insulting anyone just pointing this out, but a great example is the Hipster style which can very often include glasses, plaid shirt, skinny jeans, and a large beard. Sometimes this ends up becoming a new form of conformism, and then a new rebellion happens and then a new style is created. This is how many, but not all new styles are created. Often a new style is not created, but instead an old style is revived, intentionally or not. knowing and fully aware, or not. Everybody is trying to be unique by running away from things that they have in common with everyone, but as human beings we tend to run away from and run towards similar things as each other by our very nature, instinctively and subconsciously. :shrug:
 
Honestly, most of what I've seen isn't the big mohawks and leather jackets, but white tees with messages written with black marker, ratty thrift store suits "re-tailored" with safety pins and scrap cloth, duct-tape shoes, and a host of other DIY statements either born of poverty or at least aping it.

That's definitely consistent with what I've seen at punk venues, albeit with very noticeable skater influences in my experience, but I wouldn't say it really looks anything like Entropism (see image). It's quite possible that the punk philosophy crowd, punk music crowd, and punk fashion crowd are all fairly separate entities. It certainly seems to be the case that if you look up local / indie punk bands on google images, there is almost no consistency to the fashion and 99% of what you see is people in "normal" attire.

But regardless of how punk the game is or isn't in whatever sense you prefer, it ultimately doesn't change my desire to dress in that kind of iconic 80s alternative clothing in the game. Like I said, I have strong associations between the genre of cyberpunk and alternative fashion, and I don't think I'm alone. So it does feel, at least to me and presumably a non-insignificant amount of others, that Cyberpunk 2077 is missing a lot of that.
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Often a new style is not created, but instead an old style is revived, intentionally or not. knowing and fully aware, or not.

Yep. Fashion is definitely cyclical to an extent. I can see a lot of the 90s / early 2000s in 2077's Kitsch style, and in general these days. Just like the 80s has had a resurgence in the past decade, it seems the 90s is next.
 

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If anything we need more cybermetal and less punk! :p

Some of the scenes shown in the trailers oddly remind me of the 'Sixth element', with a more clownish and excessive flair than punk. I would have preferred a darker industrial tone. Same for the music. I always associated cyberpunk with the dark industrial, post punk music scene: Susie and the Banshees, Joy Division, The Cure, Bauhaus and other rock bands with more decidedly metal influences like the Queensryche, Sister of Mercy, Nine Inch Nails, Ministry, Ramstein.
Wait when you say 6th element, do you mean the movie "The Fifth Element"?
I don't disagree with this sentiment, but I guess as someone who has been embroiled in punk culture since the 90's I know how much variation I've seen in the subculture in the last 30 years, and can only imagine what the old guard saw. Honestly, most of what I've seen isn't the big mohawks and leather jackets, but white tees with messages written with black marker, ratty thrift store suits "re-tailored" with safety pins and scrap cloth, duct-tape shoes, and a host of other DIY statements either born of poverty or at least aping it. Sure you'll always see a few affluent suburban kids who have the money to buy manic panic and spiked leather, but punk calls to the disenfranchised, and that often meant the broke & disaffected who aren't going to have the luxury of buying the stereotypical garb or working on their hair for hours every day.
The image everyone has of a "punk" is like 5% of the crowd at any punk concert. To me, Entropism with a splash of Kitsch or appropriated/subverted Militarism is what punk looks like.
Wow that is extremely thought provoking :think:

That's definitely consistent with what I've seen at punk venues, albeit with very noticeable skater influences in my experience, but I wouldn't say it really looks anything like Entropism (see image). It's quite possible that the punk philosophy crowd, punk music crowd, and punk fashion crowd are all fairly separate entities. It certainly seems to be the case that if you look up local / indie punk bands on google images, there is almost no consistency to the fashion and 99% of what you see is people in "normal" attire.

But regardless of how punk the game is or isn't in whatever sense you prefer, it ultimately doesn't change my desire to dress in that kind of iconic 80s alternative clothing in the game. Like I said, I have strong associations between the genre of cyberpunk and alternative fashion, and I don't think I'm alone. So it does feel, at least to me and presumably a non-insignificant amount of others, that Cyberpunk 2077 is missing a lot of that.
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Yep. Fashion is definitely cyclical to an extent. I can see a lot of the 90s / early 2000s in 2077's Kitsch style, and in general these days. Just like the 80s has had a resurgence in the past decade, it seems the 90s is next.
Yea I notice this as well. The 90's keeps trying to come back over and over again, but then it kind of stops for a while and comes back and then gives up for a while again, I'm guessing that this is because the 90's was this attempt to be experimental with certain things in search of some kinds of conclusions, many of which really never went anywhere, some of which morphed into other things and lost that unique feel or vibe as it was made a part of something else, or lost entirely in the process somewhere along the way. 90's styles in 2020 seem to attempt to revisit many of these styles, and are often met with the same dead ends, which is a shame because the successful styles that mysteriously vanished seem to never be revisited.

When it comes to 80's styles, I see a huge resurgence in this style, and it comes and goes as well, but it is much more hardy and strong and sticks around longer, but it has yet to reach a full Renaissance, but there is definitely a need for it, a craving, a calling that many feel towards it, even if they were not alive in the 80's, it's like their souls are like "hey I remember this let me try it"

In my opinion, the best styles from the 90's were styles that paid respect to styles from the 80's in an experimental way, and stayed true to the 80's.

Of course, both 80's and 90's also has some pretty wacky silly !@#$ as well :think: :ROFLMAO:
 
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I am hoping that the atmosphere will well outweigh that of the old Neocron, and rival Blade Runner, and not end up too much like the cartoonism of Fallout, with similar creative darkness in dark or deserted areas like Bioshock...I am looking forward to the fashions, and hope there are lots of 'separates' especially in female fashion not just jeans and jumpsuits or pseudo space suits or coveralls. The NeoKitsch theme interests me most as having lived in Japan and experienced the wild wacky fashion fused with retro historical influences I want to be able to mix it up madly; bionic augmentation on some parts, nudity on some areas. spiked heels, skirts and samurai style melee adaptations, alongside futuristic hairstyles, neon tattoos, visors and lenses or end up like an android weaponed version of Rachel in Blade Runner with hats, cigarette smoke, seamed stockings, masks and a Sin City film Noir feel. I want to be able to change all elements from skin decor to chinese hairpins, jewellery to psionic implants as per Deus Ex but have everything reflect in my avatar appearance. Hopefully there will be the ability to craft or commission individual worksand fashions from unique materials with reflective mirror surfaces and see thru alongside leather, rubber lace and electronic clothing. Ideally a mad freeform world as envisaged in Jack Womack's Ambient series.
 
Without being an expert on fashion styles over the last decades, given some thoughts or "concerns" being voiced, I think we can pretty much look forward to a diverse style set.

I assume this game will manage the fine balance and rich mixed-theme environment like Fallout New Vegas did for me:

From wild west cowboys and bandits to mid-tech to high tech factions, raiders, civilization in the strip, tribespeople elsewhere, rednecks, psychos, Roman legion slave trader ripoffs, a bit of SAW (DLC) sprinkled in up to a quirky version of a sci-fi version of the future based on roughly the 50s. That and more is the wild ride that Fallout New Vegas was for me theme or style wise, and yet, they managed to combine it all well in the same universe or landscape and setting.

I believe Cyberpunk 2077 will offer the same style or theme rich environment based on when and where you tread. From quasi Mad Max or Escape from LA vibes to the highly urban inner city districts or powerful city center, anything in between, the rich, poor, good, bad and more. Combining a diverse theme set within one landscape or setting is surely not easy, but if done well, very much rewarding or entertaining for the player.

Lastly, I understand that some might've preferred more darker tones on average, where here it seems to be a more colorful mix of styles. But, alas, I'm no CP2020 expert either but I think picking a, say, dark-dark future approach like in Blade Runner or similar in how it was depicted wouldn't have stayed true to the CP2020 origins.

In other terms and comparison, this more seems like "Brave New World" than "1984", if you catch my meaning. I don't necessarily think the general colorful, diverse or 'quirky' mix is bad. If themes are mixed or placed well, everyone will get their fix while keeping transitions natural.

Long story short, for me it doesn't have to be a "dark-dark" future everywhere with the according style choices. It's dystopian a lot, but might get old quick or might even be over-used. Perhaps a more punky or quirky approach is what will make this stand out more and keep it interesting or to its roots.
 
I want to be able to mix it up madly; bionic augmentation on some parts, nudity on some areas. spiked heels, skirts and samurai style melee adaptations, alongside futuristic hairstyles, neon tattoos, visors and lenses or end up like an android weaponed version of Rachel in Blade Runner with hats, cigarette smoke, seamed stockings, masks and a Sin City film Noir feel. I want to be able to change all elements from skin decor to chinese hairpins, jewellery to psionic implants as per Deus Ex but have everything reflect in my avatar appearance.

I will gun down civilians for their clothing. <3
 
Dude. Punk is not about clothes.

It definitely is for some people.

Language is fluid. Unfortunately, you can't protect the meaning of a word. As much as I, as someone who identifies with the goth subculture, hate how the word goth is being misinterpreted and used for things that have nothing to do with the music, I can't change how language works. Like it or not, in 2020, words like "goth" and "punk" are just as much Instagram hashtags and descriptors of fashion as they are descriptors of music genres or philosophies, if not more. Again, I don't necessarily like it, but I think there are probably more people interested in [insert alternative fashion] than are people who actually engage with the music subculture associated with the name of that fashion.

Also not sure what you mean exactly by "Punk is Dead". Do you mean punk is no longer mainstream? Because while that is true, there are definitely still active punk scenes if you know where to look, so I wouldn't say it's dead in that sense. The only other thing I can think of is that it might be a meme similar to "goth isn't dead - it's undead" in the goth subculture.
 
I dig the aesthetic of the game. having been born in the 80s and grown up seeing the rise and fall of neon colors, grunge, and punk styles, I think the styles in this game have a neat futuristic spin on those styles from the 80s and 90s...

That "Futuristic spin" part is the part I would like to emphasize.
if you're expecting a the Punk look of today or from generations passed, then you're not going to find it, but you will see things that harken back to those styles...
 
Punk is an attitude. Not an aesthetic.

Yeah, I agree.

My first exposure to punks was Camden Town market, London, back in the early 80's. So visually, the first things that spring to mind are leather, studs, spikes and bright Mohawks. Or those guys by the telescope at the beginning of Terminator - the ones Arnie beats up :)

However, my broader view of punk is similar to yours. It's an attitude, it's rebellion, it's refusing to conform. Given the game takes place in a futuristic alternate reality, with some retro themes, I'm happy with the aesthetics shown so far. I'd imagine Pondsmith is content too so who would I be to argue anyway?
 
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