1. if you are going to steal transmet is the go to resource
2. I still think of blipverts when I think of subliminal advertising and that would do more than drive people a little mad
2. I still think of blipverts when I think of subliminal advertising and that would do more than drive people a little mad
As a player I can't really say. In an NPC light, I'd like to see lots of different psyches and 'reasons' that might send someone over the edge. People as a whole are odd--the slightest things to an outsider's perspective can be enough to send someone into a foaminf rage. I'd think that road rage could even play a part (might be a good reason why not to drive like a jerk in-game). Another obvious reaction could be the phantom disconnect between a person's (former) comrades and the life they now lead. Something like "I have no mouth, and must scream". And some people just really want to get a murderboner on everything they see.
Cyberpsychosis in my mind has never been about "balancing" combat oriented implants. It has always been the material decision you as a player character have to make about living in an enhanced technologically accelerated and fraying world. Cyber-psychosis has never been about the system that is used to functionally represent it - humanity points, but has always been about roleplaying. The simplicity of the PnP system relied heavily on engaged players and game masters to use their human intelligence to imagine the realities of how cyberpsychosis, technoshock, and the Hyper stylish culture of CP2020 and its impact on the characters. A good group always filled in the blanks and the games weren't just about being combat GODs, but grappling with the big questions posed by the world of CP2020 where cybernetics are the crux of getting ahead and surviving in an increasingly darwinian world of the haves and have nots. Roleplaying making the HARD CHOICES between becoming more enhanced and less human or struggling to not give into a world that pressures you in every way to sell your humanity piece by piece, by hook, by crook, by necessity or corporate intrigue. Grappling as a player with the questions of how much of my humanity am I willing to give up get ahead? How much will I risk? To be faster, stronger, smarter, better looking, more accepted? The system that has to be designed for the game I'm hoping will take this into account. Most games have a simple benefit/penalty structure, or brute force it through choose your own adventure dialogue options. In my opinion one system is not enough but to truly do this correctly it will require multiple overlapping systems that come together to demand players to make challenging and complex decisions about the actions they choose to define their characters humanity. In essence what is the best system that will facilitate my own journey through this world and the ethical questions it poses? The cyberpsychosis system is the the CRUX system to accomplish this.
Wall of brainlock!
Trudge..trudge...you make some good points.
" Most games have a simple benefit/penalty structure, or brute force it through choose your own adventure dialogue options. In my opinion one system is not enough but to truly do this correctly it will require multiple overlapping systems that come together to demand players to make challenging and complex decisions about the actions they choose to define their characters humanity."
well, I am encouraged by the Braindance focus they seem interested in. Perhaps we will have overlapping mechanics and design that really give that creeping feeling of displacement Technoshock involves.
There is a story in one of the Interface mags about the C-SWAT squad handling a corp that went cyberpsycho. He had a neural implant and some skillsofts, but that's all it took. Killed something like fifteen people before they got him. Just wasn't what they were looking for.
I hope for some subtle examples, much more so than the above, of technology-caused psychosis.
Trudge..trudge...you make some good points.
" Most games have a simple benefit/penalty structure, or brute force it through choose your own adventure dialogue options. In my opinion one system is not enough but to truly do this correctly it will require multiple overlapping systems that come together to demand players to make challenging and complex decisions about the actions they choose to define their characters humanity."
well, I am encouraged by the Braindance focus they seem interested in. Perhaps we will have overlapping mechanics and design that really give that creeping feeling of displacement Technoshock involves.
There is a story in one of the Interface mags about the C-SWAT squad handling a corp that went cyberpsycho. He had a neural implant and some skillsofts, but that's all it took. Killed something like fifteen people before they got him. Just wasn't what they were looking for.
I hope for some subtle examples, much more so than the above, of technology-caused psychosis.
Nothing like the darkside in KOTR, its not the same thing, your going crazy not turning evil
LOL, yeah formatting could have been better. After reading 19 pages of posts brain energy was quickly evaporating.
I'm also really interested in the braindance focus as well, I hope it isn't used as easy "mechanic" to systemize cyberpsychosis or recovery from it. That would make me sad, although I'm sure the game will still be awesome.
To be a great game though I guess ultimately I'm hoping that when you choose an augment and install it that it has ripple effects throughout every part of the game thereafter. The gameplay it relates to, Getting that cool chrome hand should make NPCs look at it with jealously as they walk by, it should make NPCs who you talk to say something like "Chill hand Choomba, how much it cost ya?", it should make it easier for you to get into a club - maybe it's mandatory for some, It should make you a target for gangs who want the hardware at the cost of your cheap life. The affects should be rich and complicated subtle and overt and permeate the world and of course it should also culminate in episodes of cyber psychosis where you feel the ultimate outcome of living on the edge and falling over the precipice and when you fall you there should not be a bottom to hit or a safety net to catch you - at least not one that you can't turn off!
I'm also really interested in the braindance focus as well, I hope it isn't used as easy "mechanic" to systemize cyberpsychosis or recovery from it. That would make me sad, although I'm sure the game will still be awesome.
To be a great game though I guess ultimately I'm hoping that when you choose an augment and install it that it has ripple effects throughout every part of the game thereafter. The gameplay it relates to, Getting that cool chrome hand should make NPCs look at it with jealously as they walk by, it should make NPCs who you talk to say something like "Chill hand Choomba, how much it cost ya?", it should make it easier for you to get into a club - maybe it's mandatory for some, It should make you a target for gangs who want the hardware at the cost of your cheap life. The affects should be rich and complicated subtle and overt and permeate the world and of course it should also culminate in episodes of cyber psychosis where you feel the ultimate outcome of living on the edge and falling over the precipice and when you fall you there should not be a bottom to hit or a safety net to catch you - at least not one that you can't turn off!
It's a tightrope walk on how to do this right. I don't want to lose control of my character and have them auto attack an innocent without any input from me, but I also don't want something like darkside choices in KOTOR because that's me making a conscious decision to go evil.
No, it would have to be the game somehow tricking me into being bad and acting insane. For instance, what several people have brought up about killing enemies and then realizing they were innocents. It would need some sort of sanity system like the Gamecube game Eternal Darkness had.
No, it would have to be the game somehow tricking me into being bad and acting insane. For instance, what several people have brought up about killing enemies and then realizing they were innocents. It would need some sort of sanity system like the Gamecube game Eternal Darkness had.
I disagree.... if you don't want to lose control of your character, then be careful with your cyber... Cyberpsychosis throws you into a blind rage... You suffer a neurally induced psychotic break, and you flip out and go on a rampage.
Humanity isn't a moral meter, morality has nothing to do with it... you take the most tree hugging, bunny loving, unicorn and rainbow tattooed hippy chick you can find (shadowrun games are a good place to look, they play the elves), load her up with enough cyber, and she is gonna go nutsy fagan, ripping the heads off the orphans she was having bake sales for...
Humanity is a meter of how well you relate to other people, how they relate to you, and how you relate to yourself....
In the tabletop game, if you go cyberpsycho, the gm takes away your character sheet, uses it to do horrible things (often to the characters teamamtes), that usually get it shot to pieces (often by the characters teamates), and if somehow you manage to survive your teamates retaliation, C-SWAT intervention, and civilian reaction, and aren't in prison being fed through a tube and hooked to braindance, your character sheet gets returned, as you wake up in an alley, and you have to live with the busload full of nuns you used a fire hydrant to play whack-a-mole with...
after reading this I am sorta torn
for one thing I think it would be awesome to play as a phyco, snapping and killing everyone on sight, just becoming a sort of monster, the gameplay would change greatly and it can turn into 'how long can I survive like this' mentality and can be fun.
BUT
I also think it would be terrifying, but also awesome to have control of your character be taken away, and you watch the character you've done so much with, built up to be this awesome person completely ruining everything, the control is out of your hand. You can't do nothing BUT watch such a scene, but it would not end there. Like having your character possibly screaming in rage and pain, maybe hearing the insane thoughts of your character, things start to change and look more and more screwed up. You can't even pause the game to reload where your character was sane, all you can do is just WAIT until you're character is taken, gundown, or snap out of it. It can really have an effect on the player to realize to have a real good 'oh shit' moment of silence.
I think we live in an age in gaming, when it comes to the 'choices' you make it comes down to squat, and no matter the choices we make in the game the character will usually always come out on top. I think that it would be nice to have that feeling of powerlessness because you, the PLAYER decided to get too greedy and put too much stuff in your own character and it was truly YOU who screwed up. Not the game. I think that would be a real good change of pace from todays games and I would like it, I would hate it at the time it happens, but I would like it.
for one thing I think it would be awesome to play as a phyco, snapping and killing everyone on sight, just becoming a sort of monster, the gameplay would change greatly and it can turn into 'how long can I survive like this' mentality and can be fun.
BUT
I also think it would be terrifying, but also awesome to have control of your character be taken away, and you watch the character you've done so much with, built up to be this awesome person completely ruining everything, the control is out of your hand. You can't do nothing BUT watch such a scene, but it would not end there. Like having your character possibly screaming in rage and pain, maybe hearing the insane thoughts of your character, things start to change and look more and more screwed up. You can't even pause the game to reload where your character was sane, all you can do is just WAIT until you're character is taken, gundown, or snap out of it. It can really have an effect on the player to realize to have a real good 'oh shit' moment of silence.
I think we live in an age in gaming, when it comes to the 'choices' you make it comes down to squat, and no matter the choices we make in the game the character will usually always come out on top. I think that it would be nice to have that feeling of powerlessness because you, the PLAYER decided to get too greedy and put too much stuff in your own character and it was truly YOU who screwed up. Not the game. I think that would be a real good change of pace from todays games and I would like it, I would hate it at the time it happens, but I would like it.
Imagine if the slightest trigger warped your reality into a demented music video. Skip to 1:11.
[video=youtube;5Az_7U0-cK0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Az_7U0-cK0&feature=player_detailpage#t=66s[/video]
I'd imagine someone caught off guard would go into 'KILL EVERYTHING THAT MOVES' mode real fast--TV screens and monitors flickering to the same person's face, people pointing at you, etc.
[video=youtube;5Az_7U0-cK0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Az_7U0-cK0&feature=player_detailpage#t=66s[/video]
I'd imagine someone caught off guard would go into 'KILL EVERYTHING THAT MOVES' mode real fast--TV screens and monitors flickering to the same person's face, people pointing at you, etc.
cyberpsychosis also warps perception of the person losing it. perhaps changes in dialogue options depending on the breakdown (paranoia, cold blooded dialogue, or more empathetic options removed from being used). Players want the chrome, they pay the price
Re-thinking cyber-pyschosis in game makes me actually think that having a single system to control whether or not you go on a crazy killing spree would be kind of lame.
The real way to deal with cyber-psychosis is having all the other systems in the game responding in a rich, intelligent manner to a character's enhancements and inevitable slide down the empathy ladder. Dialogue, social situations, group acceptance, area access, how NPCs interact with you should all reflect your level of enhancement. The pressure from all these different responses should motivate/influence/affect my enhancement choices. With of course the unseen timebomb of over enhancement which random humanity costs etc. represent.
The real way to deal with cyber-psychosis is having all the other systems in the game responding in a rich, intelligent manner to a character's enhancements and inevitable slide down the empathy ladder. Dialogue, social situations, group acceptance, area access, how NPCs interact with you should all reflect your level of enhancement. The pressure from all these different responses should motivate/influence/affect my enhancement choices. With of course the unseen timebomb of over enhancement which random humanity costs etc. represent.
Yeah; as echoed in other parts of the thread, certain dialogue options should be hidden / further increasing hostile dialogue options should become the only options. Agreed that NPC reaction to you should aslo play a logical role.
I thnk having the psychosis manifest itself in freaky ways could be really unique. Imagine a Solo going nuts after getting that final bit of chrome. Now he's more man than machine, his mind begins to break and his enemies decend. Out of nowhere, bangers and hitmen pour forth and it's all he can do to defend himself. he manages to take down a dozen or so, then everyhting goes black. When he wakes up, he's hooked up to all sorts of machines, and he gets to see footage ofhimself gaing berserk and killing a dozen random shoppers in a mall...
One of my favorite movie examples of a "high functioning" cyberpsycho was the street preacher in Johnny Mnemonic . Where did he start out to get to where he was at? I like most of the mechanics suggestions in the thread so far but however you trod the path of the psycho is should be insidious and seamless within the game. I have an aversion to any system that takes control of your character from you only to give it back after a set sequence or time elapses. It breaks immersion. That being said there need to be some clues that you are loosing touch with your sense of self. As soon as you cross the line to psycho I think it should be game over because the choices are no longer yours, your character is now ruled by their delusions, rage, or lusts. Someone will come to sort you out if you try to stay within society, you may leave, try to hide but either way your character in no longer part of the story.
As far a the mechanics go, I am not sure. I really liked the idea of perfectly rational side quests that slowly hint at your loss of rationality, but this should be fairly deep into the path of cyberpsychosis. That paired with conversation and NPC reaction alteration and the idea of a mechanic of multiple tracking/effect systems is what i think would work best. It sounds like a bitch to code and work into the plot but I have faith in CDPR.
As far a the mechanics go, I am not sure. I really liked the idea of perfectly rational side quests that slowly hint at your loss of rationality, but this should be fairly deep into the path of cyberpsychosis. That paired with conversation and NPC reaction alteration and the idea of a mechanic of multiple tracking/effect systems is what i think would work best. It sounds like a bitch to code and work into the plot but I have faith in CDPR.
Cyberpsycho Process
So, with Cyberpsychosis, it seems pretty clear that there's no hard cap on how much cyber you can have, but as you edge towards 'too' much, you can go over the line. I'm wondering what should that process should be?
Here's how I see it:
1. Acquire too many cybernetics/implants.
2. Strange effects begin to ensue. Not immediately, but sooner after. Things like red pulses along the edge of your vision. Footsteps right behind you. Haunting-type effects.
3. Random attacks begin to increase. Corporate security shows up and attacks you out of nowhere. After you kill them all, they turn out to all be civilians you freaked out on.
4. The random attacks increase until NCPD shows up and takes you down.
5. NCPD rips out your cyberware. (Not all of it - but a lot of it.)
Thoughts?
So, with Cyberpsychosis, it seems pretty clear that there's no hard cap on how much cyber you can have, but as you edge towards 'too' much, you can go over the line. I'm wondering what should that process should be?
Here's how I see it:
1. Acquire too many cybernetics/implants.
2. Strange effects begin to ensue. Not immediately, but sooner after. Things like red pulses along the edge of your vision. Footsteps right behind you. Haunting-type effects.
3. Random attacks begin to increase. Corporate security shows up and attacks you out of nowhere. After you kill them all, they turn out to all be civilians you freaked out on.
4. The random attacks increase until NCPD shows up and takes you down.
5. NCPD rips out your cyberware. (Not all of it - but a lot of it.)
Thoughts?
Also, feel free to jump on in to any of the existing discussions we have going on. =)