Cyberpsychosis and you: how should it be implemented?

[gregski]

I thought about the cyberpsychosis too and it just struck me that I've already been a victim of cyberpsychosis attacks in some other games.

I remember that every time I'm playing a sandbox/open world game like GTA/Farcry 3 etc there comes a time when I get some better gear, higher stats and whatnot so I feel quite powerful. I'm fully stacked on weapons and ammo and I get bored of the story missions. Or I don't get bored but all of a sudden weird ideas come to my mind and I SNAP. Like I'm walking through this parking lot in GTA and I see 3 guys chatting so I throw a grenade between them while passing by; or take out an uzi and start blasting everyone in sight just to start spreading mayhem in this virtual world BECAUSE I CAN. Then I start running from the police and shoot at them and I just make bets of how long I will manage to survive before they gun me down. There's no particular reason, no mission/quest, just me feeling powerful and unpunished and "almighty" (and also, in the game )

So, I was wondering about how they should implement cyberpsychosis and I thought to myself that maybe...they shouldn't? Maybe it will all differ between players, some of them will just be resistant enough to play as law-abiding characters even despite the augmentations, while others will feel so powerful and blood-hungry with their arm-blades and their grappling hooks and mini-guns and all that power that they will naturally, from time to time, snap and start shooting people around them and doing bad things. And then MAX TAC will come and hunt them down, just like the po-pos do in GTA for example).

I bet this idea is too controversial or crazy to implement and I would like some quests/side-quests dealing wtih cyberpsychosis on a scripted basis. But to me leaving cyberpsychosis episodes to the player's own mind (and not making them tied to any stats or counters etc) would be an interesting(and probably ultimate) approach to something called "roleplaying". I bet there will be players that won't resist to the urge of showing meatbags how powerful they became even if no stat or meter is telling them to do so.

 

[ChaosWolf1982]

I thought about the cyberpsychosis too and it just struck me that I've already been a victim of cyberpsychosis attacks in some other games.

I remember that every time I'm playing a sandbox/open world game like GTA/Farcry 3 etc there comes a time when I get some better gear, higher stats and whatnot so I feel quite powerful. I'm fully stacked on weapons and ammo and I get bored of the story missions. Or I don't get bored but all of a sudden weird ideas come to my mind and I SNAP. Like I'm walking through this parking lot in GTA and I see 3 guys chatting so I throw a grenade between them while passing by; or take out an uzi and start blasting everyone in sight just to start spreading mayhem in this virtual world BECAUSE I CAN. Then I start running from the police and shoot at them and I just make bets of how long I will manage to survive before they gun me down. There's no particular reason, no mission/quest, just me feeling powerful and unpunished and "almighty" (and also, in the game )

So, I was wondering about how they should implement cyberpsychosis and I thought to myself that maybe...they shouldn't? Maybe it will all differ between players, some of them will just be resistant enough to play as law-abiding characters even despite the augmentations, while others will feel so powerful with their arm-blades and their grappling hooks and mini-guns and all that power that they will naturally, from time to time, snap and start shooting people around them and doing bad things. And then MAX TAC will come and hunt them down, just like the po-pos do in GTA for example).

I bet this idea is too controversial or crazy to implement and I would like some quests/side-quests dealing wtih cyberpsychosis on a scripted basis. But to me leaving cyberpsychosis episodes to the player's own mind (and not making them tied to any stats or counters etc) would be an interesting(and probably ultimate) approach to something called "roleplaying". I bet there will be players that won't resist to the urge of showing meatbags how powerful they became.

You. I like you. I like your ideas. You can come to my house and have a big bowl of delicious chili.

 

[gregski]

You. I like you. I like your ideas. You can come to my house and have a big bowl of delicious chili.

Thanks for the invitation! But I have to loyally warn you, where I live we usually take a bottle of vodka with us when invited to someone's place

 

[blank_redge]

So, I was wondering about how they should implement cyberpsychosis and I thought to myself that maybe...they shouldn't? Maybe it will all differ between players, some of them will just be resistant enough to play as law-abiding characters even despite the augmentations, while others will feel so powerful and blood-hungry with their arm-blades and their grappling hooks and mini-guns and all that power that they will naturally, from time to time, snap and start shooting people around them and doing bad things. And then MAX TAC will come and hunt them down, just like the po-pos do in GTA for example).

I bet this idea is too controversial or crazy to implement and I would like some quests/side-quests dealing wtih cyberpsychosis on a scripted basis. But to me leaving cyberpsychosis episodes to the player's own mind (and not making them tied to any stats or counters etc) would be an interesting(and probably ultimate) approach to something called "roleplaying". I bet there will be players that won't resist to the urge of showing meatbags how powerful they became even if no stat or meter is telling them to do so.

Hm.

While this is a good counter-argument against implementing an in-game mechanic for cyberpsychosis, I don't feel that it illustrates the cost of getting cyberware, and I'm not talking about credits.

To cyberware, or Not to cyberware: that is the question. I don't feel it should be as casual as looking at a menu and paying your creds. I think that getting cybered should be a MAJOR decision, with an appropriate cost, beyond, "Hey, I probably shouldn't grenade those people in the parking lot, otherwise, I might have to fight off the cops for 10 minutes before I flee."

 

[Blothulfur]

Black out, lose control? After the first time it occurs you wake up puking, suffering terrible flashbacks, visions of sickening acts and a curious detatched sense of joy. This is your only chance, if you go over the edge then it's the psycho squad and a mind wipe or worse. If you step back from the precipice it spawns quests, where victims come for you, media hacks chase you down, you begin to hear an angelic AI singing in the comm streams etcetera, and you have to act fast and clever to throw them off the trail.

 

[gregski]

Hm.

While this is a good counter-argument against implementing an in-game mechanic for cyberpsychosis, I don't feel that it illustrates the cost of getting cyberware, and I'm not talking about credits.

To cyberware, or Not to cyberware: that is the question. I don't feel it should be as casual as looking at a menu and paying your creds. I think that getting cybered should be a MAJOR decision, with an appropriate cost, beyond, "Hey, I probably shouldn't grenade those people in the parking lot, otherwise, I might have to fight off the cops for 10 minutes before I flee."

I wasn't really writing it as a counter-argument against anything. I just had this observation of my behaviour during playing a certain kind of games and I was just giving an idea, a different POV.

Of course the decision to augment ourselves should be a major one and therefore the only factor shouldn't be "hey, I probably shouldn't put any more cyberware in my body because I'm gonna go psycho". The whole issue of putting metal in your body is so much more. It should make you question your humanity and what is a better way to do that by making you more powerful than ordinary human and seeing how you act?

IMO the seriousness of the decision to augment ourselves would be best reflected in its CONSEQUENCES in the story than in some artificial counters or a "cyberpsychosis bar" filling up with every new implant. For example,if you start to cross a line and become more machine than human, your loved one eventually rejects you or you get in a conflict with him/her. It's a basic, simple example but there could be many ways of implementing the consequences of augmentations into the story with a broader range of issues touched than just "will I turn psycho or not".

 

[FoggyFishburne]

I'd love to see cyberpsychosis implemented in the game! Truth be told though, I kinda expect them to incorporate it. It'd be weird if they left it out. It feels so thematic and right, considering the context. So yeah, I guess they'll do something.

 

[blank_redge]

I wasn't really writing it as a counter-argument against anything. I just had this observation of my behaviour during playing a certain kind of games and I was just giving an idea, a different POV.

*nods* Duly noted.

IMO the seriousness of the decision to augment ourselves would be best reflected in its CONSEQUENCES in the story than in some artificial counters or a "cyberpsychosis bar" filling up with every new implant. For example,if you start to cross a line and become more machine than human, your loved one eventually rejects you or you get in a conflict with him/her. It's a basic, simple example but there could be many ways of implementing the consequences of augmentations into the story with a broader range of issues touched than just "will I turn psycho or not".

Agreed.

 

[username_3641692]

It will be good to have a dialog that can make changes by what you choose...but to think of it, if you play it again, it will be the same reaction for what you choose to answer, and the fun is going to run dry soon enough. Just keep it simple and something that affect not the game-play but lets say the character reactions. Or the other way around, but a dialog that change my gameplay or the actions way after, is GETTING OLD and repetitive.

 

[datahead]

I think it would be a good way to do some screwy things with Dialog. As far as the world perception thing being broken down, I could see that too. So maybe you see someone trying to mug you, but behind them you can see a video feed showing them begging for food. Have it play with some of the NPC interactions you have but I don't think it should go so far as to force the crazy on you. If you however choose to feed into it through dialog choices or interacting with NPC's like a crazy person the effect it has on how you see the world gets stronger.

 

[walkingdarkly]

No one else brought up Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem?

That game, that fracking game. To bad Nintendo copyrighted the engine used to do what went on in that game so no one can one up them and make an even better version of Eternal Darkness. I would also point to Batman Arkham Asylum and the segments involving Scarecrow on how cyber psychosis could be handled.

 

[ChaosWolf1982]

What's needed is something (not sure how) to have the onset of cy-psycho effects to be gradual, not just hit some arbitrary internal threshhold number and go "okay, your psycho number just went up a point, and passed the limit, so welcome to insane murdertime."

I mean, there's a a rather broad stretch between feeling deservedly arrogant due to being more physically-capable than baseline humans, and going "pitiful fleshlings must perish, behold your iron death-god", just like there's a broad stretch between goofing-around with your buddies and being so utterly barmy that they call for the straightjackets while you get in onesided arguments with your own ass about whether or not houseplants are psychic.

 

[blank_redge]

What's needed is something (not sure how) to have the onset of cy-psycho effects to be gradual, not just hit some arbitrary internal threshhold number and go "okay, your psycho number just went up a point, and passed the limit, so welcome to insane murdertime."

I mean, there's a a rather broad stretch between feeling deservedly arrogant due to being more physically-capable than baseline humans, and going "pitiful fleshlings must perish, behold your iron death-god", just like there's a broad stretch between goofing-around with your buddies and being so utterly barmy that they call for the straightjackets while you get in onesided arguments with your own ass about whether or not houseplants are psychic.

100% agreed.

 

[Terralventhe]

A subtle way to do it might be to have a series of sidequests that only become accessible once a certain percentage of augmentation has been achieved, but make them seem wholly natural and progressive, so you think you're actively pursuing a particular course of action, facing off against a new enemy or threat, and so on - only towards the end of the series of sidequests to have the rug pulled out beneath you when you are shown security footage that reveals that your activities of 'taking out criminal cells' was really you shooting up a mall.

The entire point being that crazies don't know they be crazy, after all. Rather than make it be an instant 'OH BY THE WAY YOU'RE TOTES CRAY CRAY NAO', you'd have it be subtle at the start. Maybe an NPC grumps at you in a way that makes you go 'well, that was kind of a dick thing to say..' and that's just the beginning of the downward spiral. Basically make the insanity seem like you're just pursuing quests and missions the same as always, in other words. You should be led to think that what you're doing is perfectly sensible, up until it gets revealed to you that you've been chasing your own delusions all along.

A somewhat useful example is Bioshock. The protagonist there has been manipulated the entire time, but you don't find out until you actually come across a certain somebody who reveals that someone's messing with your head and pulling your strings like a puppet. Everything you've done up until that point has seemed like it's your own free will at work, that you're just progressing down the natural course of action - until that point where the bomb shell is dropped and you're informed that you haven't been in control at all.

Don't hint at it, don't make the player aware that something might be wrong. Make it all play out as business as usual for them. That's where the real madness lies, after all. One of my favourite words used to describe RPG protagonists in games like D&D comes from 4chan's /tg/ board, where they call player characters 'murderhobos', a term which, really, is 100% accurate. RPG protagonists are squatters who camp out in the woods, homelessly wandering around, murdering everything around them that glows red or has a red circle around them, without ever questioning WHY they might be killing them, then proceeding to loot the corpses and raid their homes - and why? Because of some obscure prophecy, or a being of light descended from the sky and told them 'You are the Chosen Ones!' If there ever was a sociopathic monster unlike any other, it would be the hero of an RPG.

And that's how you nail players on cyberpsychosis. Players are already murderhobos. All you really need to do is make them think they're doing the same stuff as they've always been doing, and then splash them in the face with a bucket full o' cold reality.

 

[gregski]

What's needed is something (not sure how) to have the onset of cy-psycho effects to be gradual, not just hit some arbitrary internal threshhold number and go "okay, your psycho number just went up a point, and passed the limit, so welcome to insane murdertime."

I mean, there's a a rather broad stretch between feeling deservedly arrogant due to being more physically-capable than baseline humans, and going "pitiful fleshlings must perish, behold your iron death-god", just like there's a broad stretch between goofing-around with your buddies and being so utterly barmy that they call for the straightjackets while you get in onesided arguments with your own ass about whether or not houseplants are psychic.

Definitely agreed.

A subtle way to do it might be to have a series of sidequests that only become accessible once a certain percentage of augmentation has been achieved, but make them seem wholly natural and progressive, so you think you're actively pursuing a particular course of action, facing off against a new enemy or threat, and so on - only towards the end of the series of sidequests to have the rug pulled out beneath you when you are shown security footage that reveals that your activities of 'taking out criminal cells' was really you shooting up a mall.

The entire point being that crazies don't know they be crazy, after all. Rather than make it be an instant 'OH BY THE WAY YOU'RE TOTES CRAY CRAY NAO', you'd have it be subtle at the start. Maybe an NPC grumps at you in a way that makes you go 'well, that was kind of a dick thing to say..' and that's just the beginning of the downward spiral. Basically make the insanity seem like you're just pursuing quests and missions the same as always, in other words. You should be led to think that what you're doing is perfectly sensible, up until it gets revealed to you that you've been chasing your own delusions all along.

A somewhat useful example is Bioshock. The protagonist there has been manipulated the entire time, but you don't find out until you actually come across a certain somebody who reveals that someone's messing with your head and pulling your strings like a puppet. Everything you've done up until that point has seemed like it's your own free will at work, that you're just progressing down the natural course of action - until that point where the bomb shell is dropped and you're informed that you haven't been in control at all.

Don't hint at it, don't make the player aware that something might be wrong. Make it all play out as business as usual for them. That's where the real madness lies, after all. One of my favourite words used to describe RPG protagonists in games like D&D comes from 4chan's /tg/ board, where they call player characters 'murderhobos', a term which, really, is 100% accurate. RPG protagonists are squatters who camp out in the woods, homelessly wandering around, murdering everything around them that glows red or has a red circle around them, without ever questioning WHY they might be killing them, then proceeding to loot the corpses and raid their homes - and why? Because of some obscure prophecy, or a being of light descended from the sky and told them 'You are the Chosen Ones!' If there ever was a sociopathic monster unlike any other, it would be the hero of an RPG.

And that's how you nail players on cyberpsychosis. Players are already murderhobos. All you really need to do is make them think they're doing the same stuff as they've always been doing, and then splash them in the face with a bucket full o' cold reality.

Well said. Any threshholds or "psycho-o-meters" should remain hidden from the player and it should be the social/story consequences that make him a psycho without him being aware of it. I really liked how you described this "downward spiral", where we start going paranoid about people, which might lead us to doing bad things while it was all just an illusion.

Cyberpsychosis shouldn't be treated as merely a "snap-out time", it should have some narrative value, to make us question or humanity, augmentations etc.

 

[lostkauz]

A subtle way to do it might be to have a series of sidequests that only become accessible once a certain percentage of augmentation has been achieved, but make them seem wholly natural and progressive, so you think you're actively pursuing a particular course of action, facing off against a new enemy or threat, and so on - only towards the end of the series of sidequests to have the rug pulled out beneath you when you are shown security footage that reveals that your activities of 'taking out criminal cells' was really you shooting up a mall.

This right here is an epic idea and I approve 100%. I love it, Misc Missions (or even Main Missions) that have you going off to be a super-bad-ass hero only to find out later, you goofed up big time and you're really as nutty as fruit bat.

The only thing would be there needs to be a balance between those that actually recognize it's a trait of going "nutty" and they have a way of "curbing" it or holding it back. Or even recognizing it for what it is.

 

[Sunder]

A subtle way to do it might be to have a series of sidequests that only become accessible once a certain percentage of augmentation has been achieved, but make them seem wholly natural and progressive, so you think you're actively pursuing a particular course of action, facing off against a new enemy or threat, and so on - only towards the end of the series of sidequests to have the rug pulled out beneath you when you are shown security footage that reveals that your activities of 'taking out criminal cells' was really you shooting up a mall.

The entire point being that crazies don't know they be crazy, after all. Rather than make it be an instant 'OH BY THE WAY YOU'RE TOTES CRAY CRAY NAO', you'd have it be subtle at the start. Maybe an NPC grumps at you in a way that makes you go 'well, that was kind of a dick thing to say..' and that's just the beginning of the downward spiral. Basically make the insanity seem like you're just pursuing quests and missions the same as always, in other words. You should be led to think that what you're doing is perfectly sensible, up until it gets revealed to you that you've been chasing your own delusions all along.

A somewhat useful example is Bioshock. The protagonist there has been manipulated the entire time, but you don't find out until you actually come across a certain somebody who reveals that someone's messing with your head and pulling your strings like a puppet. Everything you've done up until that point has seemed like it's your own free will at work, that you're just progressing down the natural course of action - until that point where the bomb shell is dropped and you're informed that you haven't been in control at all.

Don't hint at it, don't make the player aware that something might be wrong. Make it all play out as business as usual for them. That's where the real madness lies, after all. One of my favourite words used to describe RPG protagonists in games like D&D comes from 4chan's /tg/ board, where they call player characters 'murderhobos', a term which, really, is 100% accurate. RPG protagonists are squatters who camp out in the woods, homelessly wandering around, murdering everything around them that glows red or has a red circle around them, without ever questioning WHY they might be killing them, then proceeding to loot the corpses and raid their homes - and why? Because of some obscure prophecy, or a being of light descended from the sky and told them 'You are the Chosen Ones!' If there ever was a sociopathic monster unlike any other, it would be the hero of an RPG.

And that's how you nail players on cyberpsychosis. Players are already murderhobos. All you really need to do is make them think they're doing the same stuff as they've always been doing, and then splash them in the face with a bucket full o' cold reality.

I think that in order for this to work, the humanity/empathy levels would need to be a hidden stat otherwise the player could anticipate what was coming.

 

[lostkauz]

I think that in order for this to work, the humanity/empathy levels would need to be a hidden stat otherwise the player could anticipate what was coming.

Given Guides, Forums (such as this and others) and such as well kinda spoil effects like this. It would still be best to even hide a factor of probability. Meaning two exact play-throughs trying to replicate the results would not yield the same results.

 

[Sunder]

Given Guides, Forums (such as this and others) and such as well kinda spoil effects like this. It would still be best to even hide a factor of probability. Meaning two exact play-throughs trying to replicate the results would not yield the same results.

Some people will always look up guides. Not our fault if they look everything up beforehand and then complain how there was no thrill of exploration and finding out things in the game on your own. I've seen as much when it comes to, for example, Dark Souls.

 

[username_3643802]

As for implementation? Induce hallucinations. The definition of a psychosis is a mental state of mind that has completely lost contact with reality. Give the player the feeling they're in a different world. Confuse them. Give them visions - gunfire, screaming, that kind of thing.

Another important aspect is NPC reaction and dialogue, like subject 013 said. I mean come on, you experience a psychosis induced by cybernetic augmentation. A thing I've found that makes RPGs great is when there's real people in it - real emotion, depth, personality. Watching them react to a kill-crazy aug with surprise, with genuine fear, would enhance the game's atmosphere greatly if cyberpsychosis was made this way.