Cyberpunk 2077 as a Metaverse

[XianeX]

If they extended the game to have metaverse functionality, (for instance open-source Red Engine), it would help deliver on some of the expectations of the game for most of the community and eliminate/accelerate a lot of the work needed to be done on the game as far as mods, bug fixes, and expansions. I can imagine with more community contributions to the base game would "literally" open more doors in the game and get features like the helipads/AV pads (the infamous 2B circles) functional all over the game. Personally, I'd like to be able to fly around, even shoot from the aerial vehicles. I'm actually more interested in that as a feature than any more cars or car improvements. That, second to the multiplayer features that I read about in the credits of the game. Java programming?!

I've thought about a lot of stuff I've read here about a survival component, and realized, it should be a mode of the game. It's interesting that it isn't an optional mode to accompany the lifepaths and difficulty settings.

#StillThinking

 

[lyin321]

If they extended the game to have metaverse functionality, (for instance open-source Red Engine), it would help deliver on some of the expectations of the game for most of the community and eliminate/accelerate a lot of the work needed to be done on the game as far as mods, bug fixes, and expansions. I can imagine with more community contributions to the base game would "literally" open more doors in the game and get features like the helipads/AV pads (the infamous 2B circles) functional all over the game. Personally, I'd like to be able to fly around, even shoot from the aerial vehicles. I'm actually more interested in that as a feature than any more cars or car improvements. That, second to the multiplayer features that I read about in the credits of the game. Java programming?!

I've thought about a lot of stuff I've read here about a survival component, and realized, it should be a mode of the game. It's interesting that it isn't an optional mode to accompany the lifepaths and difficulty settings.

#StillThinking

Can you say that again? I have no idea what you are talking about

 

[Rabygon]

So basically mods?

 

[manoj_k30]

SO we just need a modkit. There would be no need for open source if we just get an official kit.

 

[XianeX]

So basically mods?

Here's the difference. A mod kit is a short fix. Considering Community build times compared to Developer build times, a mod kit would take years to get off of the ground. Keep in mind that the modding community added several changes and fixes to the game within WEEKS of the release. Within months the modding community added car chases and a host of other functionality like global vendor functionality.

1.52 put in "two" car chases after the modding community. MONTHS after. I'm surprised that there isn't a mod for flying vehicles and otherwise. Obviously, it would have been done if certain modders weren't hired out of the "Talent pool". It reminds me of Music Industry behavior.

The available (but now hard to find) modding toolkit provided by CDPR for the game shows that more can be done from the modding community, it's just the work of figuring out how to manipulate and organize what's provided as data between the spreadsheets and JSON files.

SO we just need a modkit. There would be no need for open source if we just get an official kit.

The aforementioned.

#StillThinking

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2022

Cyberpunk 2077 — from the creators of The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt

Enter the world of Cyberpunk 2077 — a storydriven, open world RPG of the dark future from CD PROJEKT RED, creators of The Witcher series of games.

www.cyberpunk.net

 

[GrimReaper801]

Here's the difference. A mod kit is a short fix. Considering Community build times compared to Developer build times, a mod kit would take years to get off of the ground. Keep in mind that the modding community added several changes and fixes to the game within WEEKS of the release. Within months the modding community added car chases and a host of other functionality like global vendor functionality.

1.52 put in "two" car chases after the modding community. MONTHS after. I'm surprised that there isn't a mod for flying vehicles and otherwise. Obviously, it would have been done if certain modders weren't hired out of the "Talent pool". It reminds me of Music Industry behavior.

The available (but now hard to find) modding toolkit provided by CDPR for the game shows that more can be done from the modding community, it's just the work of figuring out how to manipulate and organize what's provided as data between the spreadsheets and JSON files.

The aforementioned.

#StillThinking

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2022

Cyberpunk 2077 — from the creators of The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt

Enter the world of Cyberpunk 2077 — a storydriven, open world RPG of the dark future from CD PROJEKT RED, creators of The Witcher series of games.

www.cyberpunk.net

But @manoj_k30 is right.

All that's needed is a modkit. A powerful modkit. You need to look no further than Bethesda's last 3-4 games to see this. There is no need to give away access to proprietary technology you spent a decade developing.

For that next part, please keep in mind I say this respectfully and don't mean to offend. You have a naive outlook on modding. As so many people do by the way, it's really not just you. Yes, modders added cars chases, a working mass transit system and a vehicle modifications system amongst many other things to improve the game in sometimes very meaningful ways and they did it just months after release. Sometimes adding more than CDPR did in a shorter amount of time. There is a reason behind that though.

It's because the vast majority of the work was already done.

Car chases happened because the basic behaviors were already in-game, they simply weren't used. The train? Same thing, almost everything was already in-game. The same can be said of the vast majority of mods available for any game out there. Because that's what modding is - taking what's already there and changing/adding to it. When modders create everything from scratch, it takes them just as long if not much longer than professional development teams. You don't need to look further than Bethesda's games again. Big sprawling mods that add huge swaths of lands, quest, systems, etc are years in the making. Look at Skyblivion (bringing Oblivion into Skyrim) which has been in development since 2016. They're not even creating anything new per se, they just need to recreate what Bethesda already did into Skyrim. 6 years, still not done despite having an incredible toolkit and the healthiest modding community of all. There are other major projects like that that have been in the works for years and are still far from done.

That's because modders are usually solo workers or very small teams. They excel at smaller, hyper-focused, projects.

With that said, there is no news on a toolkit coming anytime soon. Those modders were hired to do just that. No one knows how far along it is, it could be weeks, it could be months or years. Or it could be never. It's far more likely we'll get that than the REDengine ever becoming open source though. I'm near certain that will never happen and if it does it will be years from now, to a point where it's just not relevant anymore.

 

[XianeX]

For that next part, please keep in mind I say this respectfully and don't mean to offend. You have a naive outlook on modding. As so many people do by the way, it's really not just you. Yes, modders added cars chases, a working mass transit system and a vehicle modifications system amongst many other things to improve the game in sometimes very meaningful ways and they did it just months after release. Sometimes adding more than CDPR did in a shorter amount of time. There is a reason behind that though.

It's because the vast majority of the work was already done.

I think you just reaffirmed my point LOL!

That's because modders are usually solo workers or very small teams. They excel at smaller, hyper-focused, projects.

Another reason to allow more community contribution with an open source Red Engine.
Also, I posted the available modkit from CDPR. . . I don't know if you've actually looked at it the actual modkit contents.

With that said, there is no news on a toolkit coming anytime soon. Those modders were hired to do just that. No one knows how far along it is, it could be weeks, it could be months or years. Or it could be never. It's far more likely we'll get that than the REDengine ever becoming open source though. I'm near certain that will never happen and if it does it will be years from now, to a point where it's just not relevant anymore.

Which basically reaffirms my point to release an Open Source Red Engine. Even more logical, considering what you said, a community specific open source version of the engine. Obviously, Open Source doesn't mean give EVERYTHING away. Even Microsoft has a community version of Visual Studio. Even further, they have VS Code.

#StillThinking

 

[GrimReaper801]

I think you just reaffirmed my point LOL!

I'm genuinely confused as to how you got there from what I've said.

Another reason to allow more community contribution with an open source Red Engine.
Also, I posted the available modkit from CDPR. . . I don't know if you've actually looked at it the actual modkit contents.

I am well aware of every tool currently available for modding CP2077. Despite the fact I stopped creating mods over a decade ago I am still very active within various modding circles, including CP2077's. I keep up to date and I sometimes dabble for shits and giggles. I'll never release anything ever again because it's too much of a hassle and I don't have time for it anymore but I'm very well aware of what's available. What you linked is but the tip of the iceberg of what's available out there.

Assuming CDPR didn't abandon the idea of a toolkit, there is more coming. Y'know, an actual toolkit.

Which basically reaffirms my point to release an Open Source Red Engine. Even more logical, considering what you said, a community specific open source version of the engine. Obviously, Open Source doesn't mean give EVERYTHING away. Even Microsoft has a community version of Visual Studio. Even further, they have VS Code.

#StillThinking

I get the feeling that you think the modding community could provide actual user-friendly tools faster than CDPR? Is that why you seem to take everything I said as confirmation that an open source engine is the best way to go?

If that is it, I can tell you right now that you are wrong. The modding community isn't some united front that would all happily work together to create the tools swiftly. CDPR (and the modders they hired for that specific purpose) are in a much better position to provide those tools in a timely manner.

 

[XianeX]

you are wrong

I'm often reminded that this place has the highest concentration of pessimism and negativity about the game. . . No surprise at your confusion. LOL

 

[Didacgomez]

I'm often reminded that this place has the highest concentration of pessimism and negativity about the game. . . No surprise at your confusion. LOL

Its slightly difficult to guess what you mean, but can I ask you if you meant something like Roblox(and there is a company behind, updating it and taking a cut of revenues)?

Because i don't think a game engine build for in-house development using 3rd party software is the same as something developed to be self-contained and EASY to use.

Night City(if that was the "metaverse" you were thinking about),cannot be free since is licensed from Rtalsorian and quite likely CDPR might use it in the future(and it cost them a lot of effort and money).

If Roblox was not what you had in mind,please elaborate a little bit if you don't mind.

 

[GrimReaper801]

I'm often reminded that this place has the highest concentration of pessimism and negativity about the game. . . No surprise at your confusion. LOL

Or you could engage in dialogue and clarify your thought process and reasoning since there is obviously some confusion about it instead of leveling groundless* attacks on the community and myself simply because someone disagrees with you?

*I say groundless because this is far from "the highest concentration of pessimism and negativity about the game" around.

 

[manoj_k30]

Just to boil some stuff down :

CDPR is primarily a game developer studio, not a wide spread engine dev like Epic.

Making an engine open-source will need more effort than making a modkit, open-source doesn't mean copy-pasting engine code and uploading to GitHub, it would mean developing proper pathways to each and every niche component which a common Modder won't even look at.
In modkit, they can provide controls to widely modifiable components based on community feedback or just general game files available on game installation.

If you want to know what a modkit can achieve, look at Creation Kit from Bethesda.

In simple terms, effort and usefulness of a modkit >>> making an (private and inhouse)engine opensource

 

[XianeX]

Night City(if that was the "metaverse" you were thinking about),cannot be free since is licensed from Rtalsorian and quite likely CDPR might use it in the future(and it cost them a lot of effort and money).

It's a good question! Who knows the dimensions of their licensing?! But, yeah, I'm thinking about Night City and/or something like it (within the CP77 franchise). They definitely have the resources for it.

i don't think a game engine build for in-house development using 3rd party software

You'll have to explain what you mean by this part. What 3rd party software? The R Talsorian IP? I don't know who all have actually looked at what's in the Modding data provided by CDPR for Cyberpunk 2077 but honestly, if you look, they gave a LOT. I'm working on my own software so I don't have the "patience" or the "time" to dig into it beyond what I have. It's full of shortcuts into the engine. To make tools for it wouldn't be too hard, but if they were to give even a watered-down set of tools, Open Source or not, (more than what's been provided) it should be useful.

As far as Roblox, I think people have a narrow view of what can be considered Metaverse software. Seriously, for the developers of Cyberpunk, it WAS a metaverse at a construction level. They may not have all been doing stuff like Roblox and Minecraft during development (multi-user gameplay kinda stuff), but from what I've gathered, they did a little and it was possible. I'm realistic, in that I do believe they want to retain a certain amount of creative control over the direction of the IP, but I think, even from what they've gleaned from the Modding community so far, that they can accelerate and acquire even more if they were to view more of the community creativity that might not have been considered in the pre-release development process.

Thanks for the question. . . . I'm skirting around other "Hostilities" directed at me

Making an engine open-source will need more effort than making a modkit, open-source doesn't mean copy-pasting engine code and uploading to GitHub, it would mean developing proper pathways to each and every niche component which a common Modder won't even look at.
In modkit, they can provide controls to widely modifiable components based on community feedback or just general game files available on game installation.

I understand but this is why I disagree. I had a copy of the Quake Engine as source code fresh out of high school of a disk from EBAY! LOL. Full source and a lot of Open GL and Direct X auxiliary software. It wasn't ANYWHERE CLOSE to the polish of something like Godot or Unity or Unreal. BUT, a LOT of people, including myself benefitted as developers and students of engine developer thought processes just from being exposed to what was available. My concept of the metaverse is from the perspective of "Mu" and similar projects . . . Maybe that's the disconnect that some may have in comparative understandings. True Story!

#StillThinking
. . .

 

[Didacgomez]

It's a good question! Who knows the dimensions of their licensing?! But, yeah, I'm thinking about Night City and/or something like it (within the CP77 franchise). They definitely have the resources for it.

Sure, and they are planning to monetize themselves.

You'll have to explain what you mean by this part. What 3rd party software? The R Talsorian IP? I don't know who all have actually looked at what's in the Modding data provided by CDPR for Cyberpunk 2077 but honestly, if you look, they gave a LOT. I'm working on my own software so I don't have the "patience" or the "time" to dig into it beyond what I have. It's full of shortcuts into the engine. To make tools for it wouldn't be too hard, but if they were to give even a watered-down set of tools, Open Source or not, (more than what's been provided) it should be useful.

There are several things that made CP2077: the Cyberpunk universe (like the city,NPCs like Johnny,Saburo, the lore) and the game engine (what CDPR used to make the game).
The Cyberpunk "universe" is a registered trademark from Rtalsorian, that CDPR licensed (and frankly I don´t know the details of the deal). They might allow mods within their game, but giving it "for free" so you can use it for your own game/app/whatever might break that licensing with Rtalsorian (quite likely I guess).

Then you have the game engine itself (the REDengine) that is how they built the game-or in previous iteration The Witcher III,II..1 I think was Aurora Engine?-.

Ideally, you want something that allows to create maps, objects,quests,dialogues, NPCs, animations,physics,lightning, audio etc... but this is where CDPR is using 3rd party software for some of those functions... say that you like NPC facial animations in CP2077, is using JALI: https://jaliresearch.com/#pricing... CDPR cannot give you JALI for free, its not their tool. When you launch the game before or after REDENGINE letters is a list of 3rd party tools they used to create the game, you need to find what files they create with them, how the game reads it and find alternatives to generate them if its software that you need to pay.

So unless REDengine, has equivalents of JALI and others embedded they will release the engine with "gaps" on what you can do . Game engines like Unity and Unreal, allow full game development within the engine-no extra software- and modularity so they can also use 3rd party software-middleware- REDengine probably has a ton of "glue" code to interface its different parts.

The tools that you are asking for, is what other people has been referring as modkit. Modders in this thread can comment on limitations and wishlistists that they have on the current set of tools available.
The Creation Kit of Bethesda (modders correct me) is probably the best "community" tool available to play/tweak/modify with games already built.

As far as Roblox, I think people have a narrow view of what can be considered Metaverse software. Seriously, for the developers of Cyberpunk, it WAS a metaverse at a construction level. They may not have all been doing stuff like Roblox and Minecraft during development (multi-user gameplay kinda stuff), but from what I've gathered, they did a little and it was possible. I'm realistic, in that I do believe they want to retain a certain amount of creative control over the direction of the IP, but I think, even from what they've gleaned from the Modding community so far, that they can accelerate and acquire even more if they were to view more of the community creativity that might not have been considered in the pre-release development process.

i cannot comment on their development model(my only question is "Why you didn't adapt Interlock system from tabletop?"), but I think is quite different business models.
In one you allow users to create content and you monetize, you need to allow easy and fast creation of new stuff but quality might be lower.
In other you create the content and (maybe not CDPR yet) allow users to extent the lifetime of your content by modifying it (modifications can be quite radical, but tend to be over a base).

Thanks for the question. . . . I'm skirting around other "Hostilities" directed at me

No worries, but if you don´t mind a suggestion.
Sometimes, in written format its better to assume that the reader is a little bit "stupid"-me specially,since I'm not a native English speaker- and elaborate a little bit more your line of thought to make things clear.
People in general is nice in this forum, based on my experience (and moderators are always on duty in case somebody is not).
PS:edited because i double posted, 16+ hours awake is not healthy.
PS2: it was all much easier in times of Assembler

 

[GrimReaper801]

The Creation Kit of Bethesda (modders correct me) is probably the best "community" tool available to play/tweak/modify with games already built.

A solid post.

You are absolutely right. Bethesda's tools have been the golden standard for two decades now. There is a reason Bethesda's games have more mods available for them than any other game out there. With everything ranging from your average first time mod to stuff that seems straight out of a professional development studio.

Anyone can fire up these tools and come up with something with just a bit of creativity.

 

[XianeX]

BTW,

The Cyberpunk "universe" is a registered trademark from Rtalsorian, that CDPR licensed (and frankly I don´t know the details of the deal). They might allow mods within their game, but giving it "for free" so you can use it for your own game/app/whatever might break that licensing with Rtalsorian (quite likely I guess).

Nope! They were pretty liberal, The main rules are, don't remake our games for money, but for your personal enjoyment you can do anything. Outside of that, the biggest rule has been, for public mods don't use the models of actual people for sexual purposes. (I'm guessing nobody reads stuff provided by CDPR LOL). Not to mention there's an entire CP 2020 rulebook comic books and posters in the purchased copy of the PC version of the game.

Ideally, you want something that allows to create maps, objects,quests,dialogues, NPCs, animations,physics,lightning, audio etc... but this is where CDPR is using 3rd party software for some of those functions...

Right, That part I know would be hell, BUT, I had already planned to use what's existing and available to test out some of my existing software, I don't need JALI fortunately, the hooks provided by CDPR in the modding kit allows you to make your own dialogs, TEXTUAL, but that's all I need anyway.

.You're cool and were respectful

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2022

The other big rule was, don't make games like our games. Pretty standard, "don't screw us over for helping you be nosey about our system", licensing in their mod tools. Otherwise, just work and reading. Realistically, most of the files for Cyberpunk 2077 allow you to touch and change most of the stuff that isn't baked in place. Most stuff can be changed in scripts by addending/modifying existing scripts. I don't even think that the popular Cyber Engine Mods thing was really hard to make. As I said, I just have other projects that I'm working on. Otherwise, I'd have been making my own toys out of CP77.

 

[CyberBobber]

Community created content? MMORPG genre tried it but it didnt go that well. I think its way too big risk for CDPR. Said it before, open new game studios, improve service and brand, should be CDPR plan. I think its no brainer CDPR is alot behind game industry's big players.

Post automatically merged: May 4, 2022

A solid post.

You are absolutely right. Bethesda's tools have been the golden standard for two decades now. There is a reason Bethesda's games have more mods available for them than any other game out there. With everything ranging from your average first time mod to stuff that seems straight out of a professional development studio.

Anyone can fire up these tools and come up with something with just a bit of creativity.

CDPR is nothing like Bethesda. CDPR is midget and Bethesda is giant. CDPR is honestly something like 10-20 year behind Bethesda. Bethesda is moving at much faster speed too.