"If you cannot make something perfect, then it's not worth doing it at all."
Sophism.
More like: "if you are faking outrage, to get some brownie twitter points, you are really wasting your time here"
"If you cannot make something perfect, then it's not worth doing it at all."
Sophism.
More like: "if you are faking outrage, to get some brownie twitter points, you are really wasting your time here"
Not your previous argumentation.
You know, in the course of history, humanity has been able to call the dangers of a lot of jobs as "being part of it".
Men and children would work 7 days a week in a mine and the occasional gas pocket blowing up would "come with the job".
Women and children would work 7 days a week sewing together fabrics at the 8th floor of a warehouse without a safety ladder, and when those would go up like a tinder box, it would "come with the job".
Police/Firefighters would ask for bribes to save your house from burglars/fire, not even bother when it was too dangerous for them, and despotic rulers would throw away their countrymen in pointless military wars. You'd die from scurvy or get your limbs hacked off in the navy.
And then there were people who said, "hang on here. We could make things slightly better!".
"Hyperbole!" you say? Well, the solutions of these things came in tiny baby steps across centuries of improvement too.
One day, the miners and sewers got safety features. Police and fireman were expected to do their job and were given shiny new equipment so that they could do their jobs a lot safer too. Media and democracy decreased the risk of pointless wars for the military and every death is now a tragedy, while sailors in the navy have been given a better diet and more access to medicine.
I'd like to think that our human society, is based around making life better for people, just a tiny bit better everyday - even if just a little - and people not to sit around shrugging.
Game Industry Crunch? I don't expect it to vanish overnight, but let's at least commiserate with each other that: Yeah! We could make that better over the course of another century, if not this decade!
We have at the very least, the incremental urge towards it.
Kings among men!
I'm not looking for a revolution, or to adorn myself with a halo forged in the fires of righteous indignation. I'm just looking for the INCREMENTAL *URGE* towards improvement and a world where no-one has to work overtime. Can I get a millimeter towards that? Half of one? How hard do I need to squeeze the stone for the milk of human kindness? You guys must be able to envision or desire a world where everyone has it a little bit better? I don't get the reactionary urge to defend the negative as part-of-the-course, the reasoning that our present society is as good as it could possibly get, and judging any kind of societal improvement as just snowflake thinking.
Alright, tone it down now. I for one am not so ethical that I won't buy the game in November. Just that I would've been okay waiting a little longer and not willing to have this news go buy without at least mentioning it here.
We are in agreement. This is sad and/or not-ideal. That's all I wanted to point out here.
I'm a centrist myself, so yeah, calling things an evil corporation because of it this is a BIG stretch. Still, you are talking my language. Thing got better in the past. I just harbor a hope they'll get even better in future. CDPR tried, failed and let's hope they do better next time.
Go, Go, CDPR!
If overtime is payed well, i don't see the problem. A lot of people complaining need a reality check.
I am disgusted. Ethical players will gladly accept to wait longer to get the game, to avoid bad working conditions.
I beg you CD Projekt Red, don't fall for the dark side of the force.
I love CDPR too!Hang on CDPR team !
You're really close to the finish line.
Love to all of you
LMAO"We don't want devs to be forced to work extra hours!"
"Oh my god, another delay? You piece of sh*t, I'm cancelling my pre-order!"
Enough said
Yea, I think most of these people I think are young armchair activists who don't hold jobs in real life. A week later they will find something else outrageous and complain about it on Twitter. I have been seeing different content creators talk about this issue and most youtubers and commenters seem to agree that this is not crunch but overtime. Also, they are getting payed for it.Well, a world without overtime would require revolution.
Look, this is real life, not a fantasy utopia where everything is rainbows and kittens.
Did you know people crunch on their own working on personal projects?
The problem with overtime and crunch isnt just that they exist. Fundamentally, there is nothing wrong with either. Why is talked about as a bad thing in the context of the gaming industry is because its at unhealthy levels and embeded in the culture, and people are not being compesated fairly a lot of the time either.
None of that is happening here. This is a few weeks of extra work to push the product into completion. It sucks sure to not have a few weekends in a row, but that is life. This is what happens in reality. And it really, is not a big deal. I am, 100 percent sure that people on the interenet feel hundres of times worse about it and are more outraged about it that anyone working there.
Dont just hear "crunch" and shout abuse. Actually gauge your reaction to the situation and context. In this case, its literally just a few weeks of one extra 8 hour day to get it done.
This is completely dumb. They are working their normal hours plus one extra day a week. They are sharing the profits of the game with these employees making them independently wealthy. I would be one of the ones volunteering for crunch time all the time. Heck, in Japan the work weeks get ridiculous for FAR less compensation. So no I'm not going to be all "poor employees you are being forced to put in the extra work that is NEEDED to get the game out so we can all reap the benefits and not disappoint the fans some of whom have taken vacation days off just to play our game."People apparently value the deadline and the cost/income more than the health of their employees.
I'm with you. It's really sad when companies put this kind of pressure on employees.
Yea, I think most of these people I think are young armchair activists who don't hold jobs in real life. A week later they will find something else outrageous and complain about it on Twitter. I have been seeing different content creators talk about this issue and most youtubers and commenters seem to agree that this is not crunch but overtime. Also, they are getting payed for it.
And here we have the example of "these people have it worse so it's okay to force overtime". This isn't a question of getting paid for work. It's about caring about employee health and welfare. Forcing a time crunch leads to stress and overexertion. Stress and overexertion lead to mistakes. It doesn't have to be the number of hours, the knowledge that you are forced into working to a fast approaching deadline is more than enough. Tag on a 48 hour work week and the stress can (and most often does) boil over.Heck, in Japan the work weeks get ridiculous for FAR less compensation.
And here we have the example of "these people have it worse so it's okay to force overtime". This isn't a question of getting paid for work. It's about caring about employee health and welfare. Forcing a time crunch leads to stress and overexertion. Stress and overexertion lead to mistakes. It doesn't have to be the number of hours, the knowledge that you are forced into working to a fast approaching deadline is more than enough. Tag on a 48 hour work week and the stress can (and most often does) boil over.
They explicitly stated they would not make their employees perform crunch time and then they decided to do it anyhow. Is it in the last two months before release? Yes. Does that change the fact that they did it even though they said they wouldn't? No.
Based on this, sounds like game development is cakewalk. Release the game once or twice a decade, and have to work OT for a couple of weeks? Sign me up. In the meantime, people in accounting have to work OT every month/quarter to close the books. Doctors in hospitals work endless hours all the time... police, fire department, IT... the list goes on. But... OMG... poor game devs have to work extra 8 hrs for a month or two... oh, the humanity... the poor souls, under so much pressure... give me a break.And here we have the example of "these people have it worse so it's okay to force overtime". This isn't a question of getting paid for work. It's about caring about employee health and welfare. Forcing a time crunch leads to stress and overexertion. Stress and overexertion lead to mistakes. It doesn't have to be the number of hours, the knowledge that you are forced into working to a fast approaching deadline is more than enough. Tag on a 48 hour work week and the stress can (and most often does) boil over.
They explicitly stated they would not make their employees perform crunch time and then they decided to do it anyhow. Is it in the last two months before release? Yes. Does that change the fact that they did it even though they said they wouldn't? No.
Based on this, sounds like game development is cakewalk. Release the game once or twice a decade, and have to work OT for a couple of weeks? Sign me up. In the meantime, people in accounting have to work OT every month/quarter to close the books. Doctors in hospitals work endless hours all the time... police, fire department, IT... the list goes on. But... OMG... poor game devs have to work extra 8 hrs for a month or two... oh, the humanity... the poor souls, under so much pressure... give me a break.
I guess anything with OT in game development is considered a crunch time now. And the people arguing about CDPR not carrying about their employees are either blind or naive. Poland is home to more than one dev studio, not to mention neighboring countries. If any one of them was so poorly treated like some of the people here and elsewhere have suggested, wouldn't you think they would've quit by now? So why haven't they? Do you think the employees at CDPR can't think for themselves, and need you to outrage in their name? Don't kid yourself... the only people benefiting from this are the weasels with click bait headlines, getting your clicks.
The employees knew what they were getting into when they started their career in game development. Crunches suck, but they’re necessary.
Then explain me why?
Explain me why missing working hours cannot lead to using more employees instead, like my previous company did.
Explain me why deadlines doesn't take that extra needed time from the start, even through the company itself can choose the deadline (in opposition to jobs where multiples companies compete for the same job, like construction sites where being the fastest can gets you the contract).
Because bringing more people will not automatically speed up the project?
Because deadlines are imperfect and are not able to include all possible issues which may happen?
Because it's not only about bringing your product, but also all the other stuff, like marketing campaigns, 3rd party products, getting your financial stuff together and so on?
I mean this is basic knowledge for anyone who did at least one project which involved more than 5 people. How you cannot understand that?