Cyberpunk 2077 Devs Reportedly Working 6-Day Weeks To Finish The Game

[RedStigg]

Don't be mistaken folks. All these guys on twitter or youtube screaming like naive and petty children about crunch time toward the end - that is obviously sometime required when you have a monstrous and ambitious project of millions of dollars with a deadline,- would be the first ones crying and being disappointed or mad over a game that is unfinished, buggy, with features missing or not working, or not totally optimised or anything else.

CD projeckt have already delayed their game twice, they can't afford to do it again as well. Obviously if they still need that crunch time while they said they wouldn't do it, it's not because they want to but because they finally need it to fix things and to make sure that their game is ready. Deadlines are imperfect, these are only predictions, not an exact science. No one has a crystal ball and can guess when it's perfect for setting a date of release for your customers and your financial investors.

Also pretty sure, that the hundreds of employees who worked on that project, being a part of that adventure for so many years would also like being certain, as much as their bosses that their game will be massively appreciated and a big success. Pretty sure it would be equally disheartening for a lot of them if finally the game released was a mess and massively criticized by the customers in spite of all the hard work everyone in the company did. I know temporary crunch time wouldn't bother me If I spent seven years working hard on a game where I put all my heart and sweat, close to finish a project.

What represents one month or two compared to all these years ? They are being paid for that extra time, that's the essential.

I'd also love all these people making content about that to go campaign about all these guys working in hospital, with endless extra time and who aren't being paid for that. But it's very likely that their outrage on that subject overall is just superficial, fake and temporary, just so that they can get their youtube or twitter likes.

 

[EMT-Fields]

Perfectly explains everything. CDPR will be okay. I work 48hrs normally. They will only have to do 6 weeks, and will be compensated for their work.

 

[doktor_fleck]

It depend on tasks.
If usually doesn't works very well with creative part of work, but works well with technical aspects.
And by CDprojekt own declarations they have finished the game long ago and now are polishing technical aspects since then.

No. You need to be familiar with Q&A process CDPR uses and you need to be familiar with the RED engine.

And?
If systematically there is crunch, that means your planned "$hit happens" time is always underestimated.
That also means that if you don't make it bigger each time it happens, then you becomes responsible for it: You cannot plan only 10% of "$hit happens" time when there is never under 30% of "$hit happens" time and say you're not responsible for it.

And how much systematically "crunch" CDPR employees got? How could anyone predict a global pandemic?

Normally those articulates around the main project (minus the financial stuff, but financial stuff are also equally screwed by reports resulting from bad planification anyway) and not the other way around.
That's actually another reason why "$hit happens" time should not be underestimated.

I think I've plainly stated that it's not about finishing the game - it's about other stuff: marketing, finance, other companies, hell, even subcontractors. CP2077 is not only a game. It's merchandise, movies, comic books - basically a brand new IP, which supposed to provide income to CDPR for years. You obviously not getting that.

Because I worked for a company who did it just right (and should work there again when I will get vaccined against Covid-19), and that in my previous business planning "$hit happens" time was one of the thing I did right.

How big was your project? How many people? How long? Have you planned for Covid happening? Sorry, but I don't really believe that you have managed something so complex like CP2077.

Also: I still don't understand how anyone in their sane mind can say that working 6 days extra - 64 hours over 6 weeks is "crunch". You are getting payed for that - a lot. You will be provided with extra bonus, which will also be a lot. It's one time only. Fuck, for the 10% bonus alone you will be able to buy a car - show me a company which offers something similar to their employees.

 

[Rawls]

Then explain me why?
Explain me why missing working hours cannot lead to using more employees instead, like my previous company did.
Explain me why deadlines doesn't take that extra needed time from the start, even through the company itself can choose the deadline (in opposition to jobs where multiples companies compete for the same job, like construction sites where being the fastest can gets you the contract).

Because they're on a six week deadline, with a need for people who have specific skillsets. Hiring qualified people takes time, and qualified people aren't likely to jump on a temp project. Also by the time the new hires are trained and ready to go, the game is likely to have gone gold (likely only 2 weeks away).

Game design is not construction work.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

No. You need to be familiar with Q&A process CDPR uses and you need to be familiar with the RED engine.

I don't remember saying somewhere that employees should be hired at the last second.

And how much systematically "crunch" CDPR employees got? How could anyone predict a global pandemic?

Your first question cannot be answered without knowing the difference between planned working hours and effective working hours of their previous projects. But they got those data.
And the global pandemic justify a report, not crunch. Crunch is the result of an underestimation of necessary working hours.
If it happens everytime that denote that "$hit happens" risks are underestimated because not considered that important. If the ones doing planning were betting their lives on it, I'm sure we would see "$hit happens" times increase exponentially, but it's not a fantasy world and karma doesn't strike back.

Also: I still don't understand how anyone in their sane mind can say that working 6 days extra - 64 hours over 6 weeks is "crunch". You are getting payed for that - a lot. You will be provided with extra bonus, which will also be a lot. It's one time only. Fuck, for the 10% bonus alone you will be able to buy a car - show me a company which offers something similar to their employees.

Your argument would hold if crunch was not "mandatory".
Then effectively incentive such as these could make people make the decision to "crunch" by themselves.
But if they made it "mandatory", that means they consider themselves that the "carrot" isn't a big enough incentive for everyone to accept.

Post automatically merged: Oct 3, 2020

In the meantime, people in accounting have to work OT every month/quarter to close the books. Doctors in hospitals work endless hours all the time... police, fire department, IT... the list goes on. But... OMG... poor game devs have to work extra 8 hrs for a month or two... oh, the humanity... the poor souls, under so much pressure... give me a break.

You know that saying that something is normal because it exist somewhere is a sophism, don't you?

 

[weirdwayne15]

Yes it depends on the task. The task right now is in the hands of the developers. as @xwolfi stated in his architect analogy. Hiring more people can add more work to a project rather then cut time. Ideally you'll have fewer exceptionally experienced people. As few as you can get. This makes it easier for each "architect" to understand what the other is doing so as they're building they don't cause more problems. If you've ever wondered "why is it that the elder scrolls and fallout series are so buggy" they have a LOT of developers. Their games are of decent enough quality to make money, and they strongly rely on "free labor" to make their games great hence their focus on making mod kits. It's not out of compassion and love of moding. It's because you always have the "Unofficial (insert name here) patch" that countless unpaid man hours are invested into making.

Also as I mentioned before Project Red is Profit sharing with these developers 10% of the companies profits. Hell I wish my company did that and it'd be magnitudes less than what these folks are making.

Employment is always a consensual arrangement. You want resources and someone needs your skills to create something.

 

[Rawls]

Post edited. Do not insult others. Any more insults in this thread and we're headed to penalties for the involved users.

 

[Bottleblonde]

I would volunteer to help CDPR.

CDPR: You don't have enough street cred.

Me: ...

 

[doktor_fleck]

I don't remember saying somewhere that employees should be hired at the last second.

It's not that CPDR planned to do the crunch either.

Your first question cannot be answered without knowing the difference between planned working hours and effective working hours of their previous projects. But they got those data.
And the global pandemic justify a report, not crunch. Crunch is the result of an underestimation of necessary working hours.
If it happens everytime that denote that "$hit happens" risks are underestimated because not considered that important. If the ones doing planning were betting their lives on it, I'm sure we would see "$hit happens" times increase exponentially, but it's not a fantasy world and karma doesn't strike back.

They never worked at something as complex and big. Hell, they basically almost doubled the studio size. Sorry, but you are purposefully ignoring the complexity of this project and how hard is to manage something like that.

Your argument would hold if crunch was not "mandatory".
Then effectively incentive such as these could make people make the decision to "crunch" by themselves.
But if they made it "mandatory", that means they consider themselves that the "carrot" isn't a big enough incentive for everyone to accept.

They could also make overtime (because it does not qualify as crunch) mandatory, while not offering any additional bonus.

Post automatically merged: Oct 3, 2020

You know that saying that something is normal because it exist somewhere is a sophism, don't you?

He is not saying that. he is saying, that there are jobs which are affected by systematic crunch and concentrating on CDPR, which as a company at least tries to compensate the employees, is just malicious and / or uninformed. If you have two patients, one with sun burn and one with 50% of his body burned by fire - which one needs the attention?

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

I'm not repeating myself, so I will go to the main point:

If the ones doing plannings were betting their whole pay on it going without crunch, they would make wildly different plannings then the current ones.

 

[weirdwayne15]

I'm not repeating myself, so I will go to the main point:

If the ones doing plannings were betting their whole pay on it going without crunch, they would make wildly different plannings then the current ones.

That's completely speculative, and no. I don't believe they would have. Read my prior post. Game development is a journey into the "unknown" it is not building a fire or constructing a watch, or building a house. Where you have a schematic. People have explained this. At this point I've got to believe you're just trying to provoke people.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

He is not saying that. he is saying, that there are jobs which are affected by systematic crunch and concentrating on CDPR, which as a company at least tries to compensate the employees, is just malicious and / or uninformed.
If you have two patients, one with sun burn and one with 50% of his body burned by fire - which one needs the attention?

Both patients.
Bigger problems doesn't means ignoring smaller ones.
Slavery (and before someone try to use it I'm not talking about CDprojekt at all for that) doesn't justify every abuses on paid and free employees just because they have a better situation.

Anyone saying "there is same/worst out there" can justify anything wrong as normal.
That's the sophism.

 

[Rawls]

I'm not repeating myself, so I will go to the main point:

If the ones doing plannings were betting their whole pay on it going without crunch, they would make wildly different plannings then the current ones.

Well obviously crunch wasnt part of the plan. So I would guess they would agree.

Considering they crunched for like six months for TW3, 2 to 6 weeks is quite an improvement. Still not ideal of course, but progress.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

That's completely speculative, and no. I don't believe they would have.

Well, that means we just cannot agree, as I think that the bigger the risk, the bigger safety mesures people takes.

 

[doktor_fleck]

Both patients.
Bigger problems doesn't means ignoring smaller ones.
Slavery (and before someone try to use it I'm not talking about CDprojekt at all for that) doesn't justify every abuses on paid and free employees just because they have a better situation.

Anyone saying "there is same/worst out there" can justify anything wrong as normal.
That's the sophism.

But you won't treat the both patients the same, with the same attention. You are not getting what difference does it make.

EDIT:
I also have to say that right now you are basically trolling, in my opinion. It was pointed to you, over and over again, that you are comparing completely different situations, blowing the whole issue over proportion, ignoring other, more urgent cases.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

But you won't treat the both patients the same, with the same attention. You are not getting what difference does it make.

EDIT:
I also have to say that right now you are basically trolling, in my opinion. It was pointed to you, over and over again, that you are comparing completely different situations, blowing the whole issue over proportion, ignoring other, more urgent cases.

With that mindset, people can only thrive against two things:
-The worst thing happening in the world.
-The most common bad thing in the world.

As everything besides those two should not be discussed as they are less important.

 

[doktor_fleck]

With that mindset, people can only thrive against two things:
-The worst thing happening in the world.
-The most common bad thing in the world.

As everything besides those two should not be discussed as they are less important.

No. The issue here is: you are wrongly stating, that lawfully introduced, one-time only, payed and extra compensated overtime is as bad as month after month working for multiple hours extra, without any payment at all is equally bad. I don't believe that you don't see the difference - ergo, you are trolling on purpose.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

No. The issue here is: you are wrongly stating, that lawfully introduced, one-time only, payed and extra compensated overtime is as bad as month after month working for multiple hours extra, without any payment at all is equally bad.

Nope.
Saying both are bad doesn't mean that both are equally bad.
But both are bad.

That's why for C2077 I'm just expressing dissatisfaction (and still buying things from GoG) while for other editors I boycott their games and constantly remind everyone everything bad they did and are doing.

That's also why I act the same out of videogame forum too, sometimes just voting with my wallet, something doing other things.

 

[gregski]

With clickbait reporting like the Schreier's article, things will only get worse.

First and foremost, I can see a line being blurred between overtime and actual crunch.

Those situations/phenomenons are different. Overtime is legal, regulated by law (at least in Europe) - and paid extra. It's a simple, "honest", straightforward transaction - employee works more = gets paid for it. There are state agencies that are dedicated to audit employers' practices and take legal action if any rules were broken.

Now crunch is something that stays in the grey zone, it's almost a form of mobbing, when employees are strongarmed, intimidated and manipulated into working more for unlimited and unspecified periods of time, very often without additional pay. This leads to burnout and toxicity in the workplace. It's usually also much more difficult to prove in court, because of methods used by employers.

So, by falsely equating overtime with crunch, it will only get worse for employees. Companies will have less motivation to implement legal, paid overtime because they will get blasted for it anyway(just like it is the case with CDPR). And with lines being blurred, it will be harder for the employees to prove mistreatment in courts, knowing corporate lawyers' methods.

 

[doktor_fleck]

Nope.
Saying both are bad doesn't mean that both are equally bad.
But both are bad.

That's why for C2077 I'm just expressing dissatisfaction (and still buying things from GoG) while for other editors I boycott their games and constantly remind everyone everything bad they did and are doing.

That's also why I act the same out of videogame forum too, sometimes just voting with my wallet, something doing other things.

Of course you are saying that they are equally bad - by simple stating that "CDPR does the crunch". It's not crunch.

Post automatically merged: Oct 3, 2020

With clickbait reporting like the Schreier's article, things will only get worse.

First and foremost, I can see a line being blurred between overtime and actual crunch.

Those situations/phenomenons are different. Overtime is legal, regulated by law (at least in Europe) - and paid extra. It's a simple, "honest", straightforward transaction - employee works more = gets paid for it. There are state agencies that are dedicated to audit employers' practices and take legal action if any rules were broken.

Now crunch is something that stays in the grey zone, it's almost a form of mobbing, when employees are strongarmed, intimidated and manipulated into working more for unlimited and unspecified periods of time, very often without additional pay. This leads to burnout and toxicity in the workplace. It's usually also much more difficult to prove in court, because of methods used by employers.

So, by falsely equating overtime with crunch, it will only get worse for employees. Companies will have less motivation to implement legal, paid overtime because they will get blasted for it anyway(just like it is the case with CDPR). And with lines being blurred, it will be harder for the employees to prove mistreatment in courts, knowing corporate lawyers' methods.

There is another aspect to that. By saying that CDPR does the crunch, you are basically putting them on a level of Rockstar, or other companies, which are abusing their employees. You are giving companies like Rockstar a handy excuse: "Look, even CDPR is forcing their employees to do crunch! It's normal!". Yes, bad things happen, but there is a difference how you handle them.