Thank you for the summary. I learned a lot of it about the world of Cyberpunk. Very informative.
Yeah, I forgot about that one... We didn't use that roll each time, maybe that's why my mind skipped on that. Fair enough. Should've read the books more thoroughly instead of going from memory.
Still, being unemployed would be a 50% chance, not a certainty, and of course you could find a new exactly similar job, with a similar salary. But then again, that's what rache was saying; that a job wasn't guaranteed. I concede.
Very welcome mate...
It rang out pretty distinctly in my mind, but I think that's because of the snarky and almost taunting way it was written. Mike could cut pretty deep with the way he worded some things back thenYeah, I forgot about that one... We didn't use that roll each time, maybe that's why my mind skipped on that. Fair enough. Should've read the books more thoroughly instead of going from memory.
Still, being unemployed would be a 50% chance, not a certainty, and of course you could find a new exactly similar job, with a similar salary. But then again, that's what rache was saying; that a job wasn't guaranteed. I concede.
Well he does have the datafort to maintain. And my bare bones description is due to lazyness, and having to type the whole damn thing on a tablet. Its not all doom and gloom. Some good folks trying to make it better. Don't think there is no rebellion there is. Its being waged by the people on the edge, and the supplement Cybergeneration is all about the revaluation, with its supplements Mediafront, Ecofront, and Virtual Front.You have no idea...
By the my introduction to Cyberpunk was through Cybergeneration, its a fun game but remember you play a kid with no chrome, unless you caught the Carbon Plague.
CDPR has Mike on call... they need to get you next - because from the sound of it, you might know almost as much, if maybe not in fact more, than he does about the game.You have no idea...
Seriously. There's this guy, Steve Sansweet, who has the second-largest collection of Star Wars memorabilia in the world, right behind the Official Lucasfilm Archives themselves. From what I can tell, you're like him, but for Cyberpunk. Only difference is, Steve eventually got to work for Lucasfilm. We need to fix that discrepancy, and get you on this project officially.
Been my dream to work for R.Tal since I first cracked open the Core Rules.... my hope has been invigorated by the activity brought on by the game...
Max Mike hasn't hired you yet? The amount of content you push out for free puts quite a few gaming houses product lines to shame. Oh wait, its free,nvm keep up the good work ;-) hehe
Basically, this is the only game that will make you feel guilty for having a lot of money?
Yeah, right.
Just consider the stance of the republican party about the health insurance for every one Obama passed lately and you got a pretty good idea of how people are ashamed to be wealthy in CP 2020, when half the world is starving.
So, if you are wealthy in that game, it's mainly because :
1- you deserve it
2- you worked hard to achieve your status
3- others suck
4- You inherited.
5- you stomped on some Joes (don't expect to retire late)
6- insert your own here
I haven't quite looked through the entire contents of this thread, and I'm not really familiar with Cyberpunk 2020 the RPG, but i think there is something important to note here. I'm quite excited for this CP2077, but have a bit of a concern that focus on all the "cool" and "badass" stylistic upgrades and whatnot might come at the expense of the more subtle aspects of ... well, a living and breathing world.
If one of the fundamentals of cyberpunk is the pervasiveness of (invasive) technology at every level, then it ought to be approached as an aspect of everyday life that is ingrained in the habits of citizens. Yes, cybernetic eyes and robotic fingers are cool, but honestly its more the idea of things things that intrigues me the most. I suppose what I'm saying is, not every single piece of "cyberpunk-ey" modification or technology needs to be celebrated to the maximum as some kind of techno fetish object - rather, let these technologies weave themselves into the everyday lives of people.
Yes, there will be those people who get a metallic robotic hand, glowing skin implants, and whatever else ad make a stylistic statement out of it. But the world of CP2077 should also acknowledge that many technologies will be hidden - there may be many people on the street who are highly cybernetically altered but disguise this fact. Let the player discover that the regular looking waitress or bartender actually has a shotgun hidden in their forearm, or has their brain electronically linked to some internal computer. If every aspect of cyberpunk is loudly presented with a huge dose of "Style", the game risks quickly becoming a caricature or cartoon of the genre.
I guess, I am wary of a "style of substance" approach to the cyberpunk genre.
If one of the fundamentals of cyberpunk is the pervasiveness of (invasive) technology at every level, then it ought to be approached as an aspect of everyday life that is ingrained in the habits of citizens. Yes, cybernetic eyes and robotic fingers are cool, but honestly its more the idea of things things that intrigues me the most. I suppose what I'm saying is, not every single piece of "cyberpunk-ey" modification or technology needs to be celebrated to the maximum as some kind of techno fetish object - rather, let these technologies weave themselves into the everyday lives of people.
Yes, there will be those people who get a metallic robotic hand, glowing skin implants, and whatever else ad make a stylistic statement out of it. But the world of CP2077 should also acknowledge that many technologies will be hidden - there may be many people on the street who are highly cybernetically altered but disguise this fact. Let the player discover that the regular looking waitress or bartender actually has a shotgun hidden in their forearm, or has their brain electronically linked to some internal computer. If every aspect of cyberpunk is loudly presented with a huge dose of "Style", the game risks quickly becoming a caricature or cartoon of the genre.
I guess, I am wary of a "style of substance" approach to the cyberpunk genre.
Well, that's the question.
How often do you meet an upgraded person ?
Is cybertech so cheap and available that pretty anybody may have some implant one way or the other ?
All depends of the view you have about the setting.
Is everyone armed one way or the other ?
Is black market tech cheap and readily available ?
Some implants are purely cosmetics (glowing hairs, tatoos), some are tools used by workers on a daily basis to improve their productivity, and some are weapons. How do you keep your game balanced ?
Do you think an hotel maid needs a cybercobra or a Slice 'n dice to do her job, or a neural plug and procesor is enough ?
The trick is to have "levels" of tech depending on who carry them. The average Joe / Jane would have some basic implant to improve their efficiency at work, plus some cosmetics or biosculpt, but really nothing really harmfull because they are not going to break the law every 25 minutes. That is the case for most people.
on the contrary, an edgerunner (the player character) and the protagonists of a cybeprunk "adventure" are likely to be heavy on ware, simply cause they need an edge in their work, and their work is really illegal and dangerous. And they have the money and connection to get really nasty stuff, what average Joe/Jane lacks.
I don't know if I'm clear enough...
How often do you meet an upgraded person ?
Is cybertech so cheap and available that pretty anybody may have some implant one way or the other ?
All depends of the view you have about the setting.
Is everyone armed one way or the other ?
Is black market tech cheap and readily available ?
Some implants are purely cosmetics (glowing hairs, tatoos), some are tools used by workers on a daily basis to improve their productivity, and some are weapons. How do you keep your game balanced ?
Do you think an hotel maid needs a cybercobra or a Slice 'n dice to do her job, or a neural plug and procesor is enough ?
The trick is to have "levels" of tech depending on who carry them. The average Joe / Jane would have some basic implant to improve their efficiency at work, plus some cosmetics or biosculpt, but really nothing really harmfull because they are not going to break the law every 25 minutes. That is the case for most people.
on the contrary, an edgerunner (the player character) and the protagonists of a cybeprunk "adventure" are likely to be heavy on ware, simply cause they need an edge in their work, and their work is really illegal and dangerous. And they have the money and connection to get really nasty stuff, what average Joe/Jane lacks.
I don't know if I'm clear enough...
In my games, any implanted weapon was illegal for civilian use.... There were some that were available to cops and military, some the Corporates pushed through, anything else had to be obtained via the black market, either stolen govt hardware, or ripperdoc specials...Well, that's the question.
How often do you meet an upgraded person ?
Is cybertech so cheap and available that pretty anybody may have some implant one way or the other ?
All depends of the view you have about the setting.
Is everyone armed one way or the other ?
Is black market tech cheap and readily available ?
Some implants are purely cosmetics (glowing hairs, tatoos), some are tools used by workers on a daily basis to improve their productivity, and some are weapons. How do you keep your game balanced ?
Do you think an hotel maid needs a cybercobra or a Slice 'n dice to do her job, or a neural plug and procesor is enough ?
The trick is to have "levels" of tech depending on who carry them. The average Joe / Jane would have some basic implant to improve their efficiency at work, plus some cosmetics or biosculpt, but really nothing really harmfull because they are not going to break the law every 25 minutes. That is the case for most people.
on the contrary, an edgerunner (the player character) and the protagonists of a cybeprunk "adventure" are likely to be heavy on ware, simply cause they need an edge in their work, and their work is really illegal and dangerous. And they have the money and connection to get really nasty stuff, what average Joe/Jane lacks.
I don't know if I'm clear enough...
The consequences for getting caught with illegal cyber were.... severe....
@ Ono
Yeah, I see what you're saying, and I agree that obviously there will be a big diversity in the amount and nature of tech people carry about them.
I wasn't implying at all that every individual will be carrying all manner of legal and illegal modifications - I was more making a point about how not all tech should be celebrated in an exaggerated manner. Not all bartenders will have say, illegal privacy-violating x-ray vision implants, but I the player should never be able to assume that the bartender is "clean". The amount of technology a person "carries" should not be correlated with any overt visual expression.
Something I always found intriguing about the original Ghost in the Shell film - that outwardly regular looking people had cyberbrains that not only could be plugged into computer networks, but would be hacked. This is a good example of routine, uncelebrated technology that a relatively normal person (in this case, a garbage-man) could find profoundly impacts his life in an invasive, unintended way - his memories are tampered with by an unknown assailant.
What is more interesting and meaningful ( in terms of societal impact of technology) - the 80's era brick cellphones that rich corporate executives would keep charging in their car, or the cellphones of today that take video and connect to the net (so innocuousness and widespread that children carry them to school)?
Yeah, I see what you're saying, and I agree that obviously there will be a big diversity in the amount and nature of tech people carry about them.
I wasn't implying at all that every individual will be carrying all manner of legal and illegal modifications - I was more making a point about how not all tech should be celebrated in an exaggerated manner. Not all bartenders will have say, illegal privacy-violating x-ray vision implants, but I the player should never be able to assume that the bartender is "clean". The amount of technology a person "carries" should not be correlated with any overt visual expression.
Something I always found intriguing about the original Ghost in the Shell film - that outwardly regular looking people had cyberbrains that not only could be plugged into computer networks, but would be hacked. This is a good example of routine, uncelebrated technology that a relatively normal person (in this case, a garbage-man) could find profoundly impacts his life in an invasive, unintended way - his memories are tampered with by an unknown assailant.
What is more interesting and meaningful ( in terms of societal impact of technology) - the 80's era brick cellphones that rich corporate executives would keep charging in their car, or the cellphones of today that take video and connect to the net (so innocuousness and widespread that children carry them to school)?
I think I understand what you mean.
Well, you never can be sure of how the person you're interacting with is cybered up unless the wares are made to be visible. Hell, it may even be a full conversion cyborg with Realskin option.
However, in the CP 2013 rules, there was something allowing a character with a thermographic cyberoptics to spot implants (superficial ones) because they should be cooler. But spotting the bartender's cybernetic limb does not reveal he's hiding a 12 gauge shotgun in it (or a braindance unit, or a coffe machine).
Socially speaking, and as I understand the Cyberpunk setting, I think cyberware is pretty commonplace, just as hearing devices, eye surgery, cosmetic surgery and high tech gadgets are nowadays (you do have an iPhone, don't you ?).
You may have a phone link implanted, a multi tool hand, a recording audio implant... Much stuff you may use easily and regularly.
For illegal cyberware, things that are made to maim or kill, nasty things, I tend to consider them as assault rifles are considered here in Europe (I know it's not the case in the USA) : they mean flat and plain murder and are illegal (to possess, carry and use) unless for professionnal reason or in duty.
So, yes, they exist, and they are known by the average Joe, but no, they are not commonplace and unless you are mentally disordered or have a good reason to have some, you don't even consider them worth buying.
I repeat, this is MY conception of the background.
A mob henchman, a triad hitter or the average edgerunner are not average Joes/Janes. They are far less edgerunners than Joes/Janes.They do not live everybody's life, and do not do a mundane work. They do things dangerous, illegal, and they are deniable. Kind of mercs. And they need good stuff to be efficient at what they do. And what they do involve sometimes killing people. So the 'wares.
Well, you never can be sure of how the person you're interacting with is cybered up unless the wares are made to be visible. Hell, it may even be a full conversion cyborg with Realskin option.
However, in the CP 2013 rules, there was something allowing a character with a thermographic cyberoptics to spot implants (superficial ones) because they should be cooler. But spotting the bartender's cybernetic limb does not reveal he's hiding a 12 gauge shotgun in it (or a braindance unit, or a coffe machine).
Socially speaking, and as I understand the Cyberpunk setting, I think cyberware is pretty commonplace, just as hearing devices, eye surgery, cosmetic surgery and high tech gadgets are nowadays (you do have an iPhone, don't you ?).
You may have a phone link implanted, a multi tool hand, a recording audio implant... Much stuff you may use easily and regularly.
For illegal cyberware, things that are made to maim or kill, nasty things, I tend to consider them as assault rifles are considered here in Europe (I know it's not the case in the USA) : they mean flat and plain murder and are illegal (to possess, carry and use) unless for professionnal reason or in duty.
So, yes, they exist, and they are known by the average Joe, but no, they are not commonplace and unless you are mentally disordered or have a good reason to have some, you don't even consider them worth buying.
I repeat, this is MY conception of the background.
A mob henchman, a triad hitter or the average edgerunner are not average Joes/Janes. They are far less edgerunners than Joes/Janes.They do not live everybody's life, and do not do a mundane work. They do things dangerous, illegal, and they are deniable. Kind of mercs. And they need good stuff to be efficient at what they do. And what they do involve sometimes killing people. So the 'wares.
I was thinking that some kind of mechanic similar to how you describe the 2013 rules would be a given. The player, knowing that he could possibly run up against our hypothetical sneaky "armed bartender", would be compelled to acquire a detection solution. Such as thermographic cyberoptics.
Exactly. But such 'wares would not always be visibly expressed. I mean, yeah - in today's world there are some gangsters who visibly carry weapons to intimidate, but for the most part it is concealed. If I were a criminal in any ordinary environment, I would be out of my mind to walk around carrying a loaded AK in the street throwing gang-signs. Even if circumstances have changed for the worse in a cyberpunk setting, I doubt this basic principle would change too much. Assassins don't "look" like assassins, etc - criminals have tools but tools are not uniforms.
Part of the fun of CP2077 should be the cat-and-mouse that is inherent to games that deal with crime.
Well, if bodyguards may look like bodyguards, killers have no uniform. Any person may be cybered, and there is absolutly no way to guess to what extend the guy facing you is a machine. That is part of the fun : you never know. However, you may have good clues observing a character behaviour and body language. But thet would be pretty hard to put that in a videogame.
Something to remember, too, is that the setting of the game influences the look of the players. For instance, if the setting is a ruined ghetto for hoboes and junkies, it is liable to meet a cybered punk chromed up to the hairs. In a corporate setting, such a character is clearly misplaced as the characters tend to be sleek businessmen/women.
In fact, no matter how cybered you are, your main concern is to go unnoticed, cause if something goes wrong, their security teams may kick your ass badly.
There is also a limit to how much cybered you may be.
In Neuromancer, there is a ninja who has no cyber at all. But he does not need some because he is very proficient. His skills are somewhat more than enough to perform his tasks. The trick is also that cyberware may induce overconfidence. And overconfident characters soon realize the hard way they not half as good as they thought they were
Something to remember, too, is that the setting of the game influences the look of the players. For instance, if the setting is a ruined ghetto for hoboes and junkies, it is liable to meet a cybered punk chromed up to the hairs. In a corporate setting, such a character is clearly misplaced as the characters tend to be sleek businessmen/women.
In fact, no matter how cybered you are, your main concern is to go unnoticed, cause if something goes wrong, their security teams may kick your ass badly.
There is also a limit to how much cybered you may be.
In Neuromancer, there is a ninja who has no cyber at all. But he does not need some because he is very proficient. His skills are somewhat more than enough to perform his tasks. The trick is also that cyberware may induce overconfidence. And overconfident characters soon realize the hard way they not half as good as they thought they were
Yeaaaaah. That ninja, whose name is...without Googling...damn I don't remember. Anyway, he's a vat-grown ninja. Gibson talks about them in Johnny Mnemonic and, maaaaybe in Neuromancer.
He pretty much IS a piece of cyber. Well, bioware anyway.
Also, to conceal cyber takes money or a swap for less effective gear. Combining them both means seriosu cash - orbital crystal gear with very very expensive realskinn and/or enhanced skinweave.
Cyber is also relatively easy to detect with various tech help, like MFDs, (see who gets that one) and even a thermoptic unless the borg has gone to some expense to conceal from same.
MOST people are not cybered - a quick check of the base book will tell you why. It's expensive. $3000 eb for a -base- cyberarm. Hand not included. That's a lot of money in 2020. Remember, signing on with a corp or the mob or whatever only gets you a 10000 eb bonus and for that, they get to put Cortex bombs in you.
So, yeah. Cyber ain't cheap, choomba.
He pretty much IS a piece of cyber. Well, bioware anyway.
Also, to conceal cyber takes money or a swap for less effective gear. Combining them both means seriosu cash - orbital crystal gear with very very expensive realskinn and/or enhanced skinweave.
Cyber is also relatively easy to detect with various tech help, like MFDs, (see who gets that one) and even a thermoptic unless the borg has gone to some expense to conceal from same.
MOST people are not cybered - a quick check of the base book will tell you why. It's expensive. $3000 eb for a -base- cyberarm. Hand not included. That's a lot of money in 2020. Remember, signing on with a corp or the mob or whatever only gets you a 10000 eb bonus and for that, they get to put Cortex bombs in you.
So, yeah. Cyber ain't cheap, choomba.
I wasn't aware of the degree of cybernetic modifications in the Cyberpunk 2020 game - I suppose I was assuming based off of other cyberpunk I am familiar with (mostly GITS) as well as the idea that in 2077, "the streets are filled" with people addicted to Braindancing through implanted BD players. To me, that seems like a fairly high degree of technological implantation, which would also imply widespread use of other more innocuous implants.
My point about hidden cybernetic implants still stands: unless you are either A: Some kind of combatant for a gang who only appears when s*** goes down, or B: there is literally no effective police force to catch those with illegal implants (the PsychoSquad as seen in the trailer shows that there is), then criminals would generally opt for less effective but concealable implants over huge arm slicers or whatever. Again -- your average gang member is going to carry a concealable Glock over an M60 the vast majority of days. Mexican Drug War notwithstanding.
My point about hidden cybernetic implants still stands: unless you are either A: Some kind of combatant for a gang who only appears when s*** goes down, or B: there is literally no effective police force to catch those with illegal implants (the PsychoSquad as seen in the trailer shows that there is), then criminals would generally opt for less effective but concealable implants over huge arm slicers or whatever. Again -- your average gang member is going to carry a concealable Glock over an M60 the vast majority of days. Mexican Drug War notwithstanding.