Cyberpunk 2077 FPP/TPP confirmed

[Sydanyo]

Those games, as well as every fpp game with any kind of multiplayer. Character movements look fricking stupid. COD, Halo, Battlefield, Army Of Two, and pretty much every other FPS going all the way back to goldeneye.

Well, I'd have to say none of the third person games I've played have had character animations that were anything special compared to any of the FPS' I've played. The only difference being that instead of having to look at only the fricking stupid movement of the NPC's, in third person games you have to look at the fricking stupid movement of your own character all the time.

I can't help, nor do I care, how other people play games. If they want to zig zag, jump around, push their thumb up their ass and say sooey... I don't care... I just don't want to see the characters looking like automotons... running straight but moving sideways, jumping without springing their legs... it just looks like ass.

Well, the third person games look just as ass with their equally automatonous character models, at least to me. Also, don't some third person games use the same engines as FPS'?

If the game was pure fps it would be shitty...

The vast number of awesome blockbuster FPS games - even to the extent that they've made the leap to consoles, even though playing anything requiring the aiming of a crosshair on a console is pretty horrendous compared to a mouse - begs to differ.

it would invalidate the entire point of customization

Not completely.

and it would make melee/hand to hand crappy

That it might do.

I realize some people buy into the fallacy that FPP is somehow more immersive...

Well, it's not a fallacy. Not any more than for example a statement such as that "metal is the best type of music ever created." They're statements that are true for some people. However, if one has never gotten into first person games, played them with headphones, listening to every little noise, trying to pinpoint the exact direction it came from so they know exactly which way to turn the view, then I suppose having the camera three or four feet above the character's head or shoulder could seem like immersive.

but the plain simple truth is, I want to see my character doing cool shit, and I want him to look cool doing it.

That's cool. Anyway's, we've established that the majority want either 1st or 1st and 3rd, so we're definitely going in the right direction, and having said that, unfortunately there's still always going to be someone who's disappointed.

In the perfect game, TPP is default.

We all have our "perfect" game, that's for sure.

The fpp fans won''t notice the difference, there is no downside for them to program in TPP default. If you are playing in fpp, you won't care if the animations for you character are smooth or not... but to the people who prefer tpp, it makes a world of difference.

Based on you being such a hard core 3rd person view proponent and 1st person view hater, I don't think you're in any position to speak as to what the 1st person view crowd wants, how they'd notice the difference, what they would care about, and so on. Also, let me just be present you with one account of anecdotal evidence telling you that you are definitely wrong with your statement there; we would notice the difference. We do, I play 3rd person view games just as much as I do 1st person view games.

Anyways, we can throw opinions one way and the other all day long, and neither side has really no good evidence to back their claims up. It's just a matter of taste, really. I guess all we can do is be thankful that the majority of people are happy, and hope that the end result won't disappoint too many people.

Looks like I'm one of those few ones who would take FPP over TPP any day. Can't even imagine playing Deus Ex or Thief in third person

Hear, hear. I'm with you there, buddy. Thief, especially. I mean, sneaking around in the shadows, trying not to be seen... Splinter Cell was cool and all, but it has to be first person to be awesome.

 

[Sardukhar]

Heh. Macleod..if I recall the poll correctly, the majority polled want either TPP or TPP/FPP. Sooo..yeah. Just sayin.

Look at it this way: It'll be great either way, sort of like a choice between a lemon meringue cake and a bunch of chocolate cookies. Now, you may prefer one over the other, but isn't either one delicious? Yes, yes it is.

Mm. Cake.

Edit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhaIQ7Q3U6E

make me think that if they can get -that- level of humanity from the in-game movement by 2015-2016, I will have to eat me words.

That's very realistic. Very. I would have less than zero objections to playing in TPP. Still prefer FPP probably, but, o.m.g.

 

[Mebrilia]

TV and movies aren't very immersive - how could they be? You are safely outside the perspective.

When a movie wants to scare you, for example, it tightens up the shot so you're right there, as much as possible.

FPP would not invalidate customization at all, you simply wouldn't be staring at your own ass all the time. You'd have to actually look at yourself. Like in real life. Funny how people dress to impress IRL and don't complain about the lack of a camera to watch themselves.

Take a lot of selfies if you need to.

The FPP fans will absolutely notice a difference if TPP is the default - all TPP-based shooters are clumsy when it comes to first person. All I can think of. Good FP perspective actually requires a bit of work in order not to feel floaty and disconnected. TPP, by nature of you using invisible puppet strings, is disconnected from the get go.

This is a fun argument, but here's a thought:

How will we even know what the "default" for CP2077 is? Heh. Maybe it will be TPP and they screw up on it or you don't like it somehow. Unless CDPR tells us, we will never know what the starting and primary perspective is. Ever. Evvvverrrr.

I hope they don't tell us.

I agre the part in regard of movie... But i disagree FPP only don't invalidate customization.... To me yes... But i repeat... Just only fpp not fpp tppp switchable....


In a hand FPP helps a lot when it comes to detailed action.. picking object aim and shot and stuff like that... But i want also see my character walking in the street... I want to see very cyberware i puchased and applyed to me any gear dress or stuff i wear because help me to immerse much more in a context.....I hated deus ex visual because basically force you to say in first person and switch to third only on covering or in dialogue...i still enjoyed the game but for me a forced visual like that it only don't make me feel immersed.. But kills also customization opportunity...
(and don't tell me deus ex had so much features in customization because all you had to do is use upgrades that max will add you a new ability or function with the related added hud string...))


This is an RPG after all not a First person shooter alla COD... The best solution is let third person and first person toggable freely like in new vegas... This will statisfate everyone.....

If a game studio promise me a lot of costumization.. but let me stuck in first person wiew.. i feel like joked.... But i think cd project is perfectly aware of this and i think they will made FPP and TPP toggleable..

If i have to chose between FPP and TPP i am all for TPP

In the other hand tpp helps a lot more to evirovment control.... In real life when you walk backward and you feel something push on your spine you feel there is a wall... in a FPP happens that you maybe walk backward to take cover and you are stopped by maybe a wooden chop that press in your ass......While in TPP you can actuallly notice fast if your backward walk is going to be interrupted and react faster

I am not a fpp hater.... But in a rpg i prefear a lot TPP or FPP/TPP switchable.....

And not.. i remember that pool and the pool sayd the majority of people wanted TPP or TPP/FPP..

 

[Garrison72]

Well, I'd have to say none of the third person games I've played have had character animations that were anything special compared to any of the FPS' I've played. The only difference being that instead of having to look at only the fricking stupid movement of the NPC's, in third person games you have to look at the fricking stupid movement of your own character all the time.

This is simply untrue, and I'm not going to bother linking all the 2D and TP games over the years that have exemplary combat/movement animations, compared to the FP ones that don't. It's not even close. FP may have more immersive shooting, but that is it. And I'll gladly give it up for the numerous benefits of TP gameplay.

 

[Sydanyo]

Heh. Macleod..if I recall the poll correctly, the majority polled want either TPP or TPP/FPP. Sooo..yeah. Just sayin.

Yeah, sorry about that. Bad output again on my part. What I meant was, in the question of whether there should be first person view at all in this game, the majority wanted it in some form. The poll on this has 32.73% for third person only, 12.59% for first person only, and 54.68% for both.

That's 67.27% for first person in some form, 32.73% against first person in any form.

Obviously, 87.41% of the people want third person in some form, but you can't have 87.41%, 67.27% and 32.73% out of 100%, and then say 87.41% is the majority out of those three. You'd have to have a clear dichotomy, such as "first person in some form vs first person in no form", which is the case where I pulled the word "majority" from. I was kind of assuming we would have third person in some form anyway.

However, to make it a bit more clear... On the question of whether the game should have third person view in some form, the vast majority thinks it should. On the question of whether the game should have first person view in some form, the majority thinks it should. On the question of whether the game should have only one view or both, only around half of the people think it should have both views.

So, by having both views, the vast majority should be happy that it has third person in some form, the majority should be happy that it has first person in some form, and yet half of the people should be disappointed because it has both. Amazing.

This is simply untrue, and I'm not going to bother

Well, if there's no examples of why the character models in an FPS game look "stupid" but somehow don't in a third person view game, then it's just he said she said. I could start and say the first Tomb Raider looked like ass, and I don't mean the fact it was one of the first games where you literally had to stare at the ass of the protagonist for hours on end. Syphon Filter falls into the same category. So does Die Hard. Well, OK. Games from the 90s sort of look like ass anyway.

Then we've obviously got the numerous MMOs, of which I've played for hundreds of days (not hours, days of game time), where movement is often completely asinine. I'm sure, while being third person view games, they don't count though.

First Mass Effect, you've just got an FPS model whose back you're starting at when she (femshep for the win) runs around. Uses Unreal Engine 3 by the way. Unreal Engine being obviously used for FPS games, as well.

Anyways, I really don't see how the NPC animation in third person games is any more sophisticated than it is in FPS games, and I'm not convinced that staring at the ass and back of the protagonist for hours on end is as orgasmic as some people make it seem. I don't mind playing either kinds of games, but I just don't buy the hype.

That's good though. We shouldn't all like the same things.

 

[wisdom000]

Yeah, sorry about that. Bad output again on my part. What I meant was, in the question of whether there should be first person view at all in this game, the majority wanted it in some form. The poll on this has 32.73% for third person only, 12.59% for first person only, and 54.68% for both.

That's 67.27% for first person in some form, 32.73% against first person in any form.

Obviously, 87.41% of the people want third person in some form, but you can't have 87.41%, 67.27% and 32.73% out of 100%, and then say 87.41% is the majority out of those three. You'd have to have a clear dichotomy, such as "first person in some form vs first person in no form", which is the case where I pulled the word "majority" from. I was kind of assuming we would have third person in some form anyway.

However, to make it a bit more clear... On the question of whether the game should have third person view in some form, the vast majority thinks it should. On the question of whether the game should have first person view in some form, the majority thinks it should. On the question of whether the game should have only one view or both, only around half of the people think it should have both views.

So, by having both views, the vast majority should be happy that it has third person in some form, the majority should be happy that it has first person in some form, and yet half of the people should be disappointed because it has both. Amazing.

The majority of people who voted for both also stipulated that in a choice between tpp and fpp, they would choose tpp. We chose both because we want everyone to have a good time, but it's pretty obvious which mode we think it should be programmed for primarily.

Fallout 3 and NV fucked up and got it backwards, and the game suffered for it, as it was pretty much unplayable, or at least unwatchable in TPP, because it was programmed with FPP as default.

 

[Mebrilia]

The majority of people who voted for both also stipulated that in a choice between tpp and fpp, they would choose tpp. We chose both because we want everyone to have a good time, but it's pretty obvious which mode we think it should be programmed for primarily.

Fallout 3 and NV fucked up and got it backwards, and the game suffered for it, as it was pretty much unplayable, or at least unwatchable in TPP, because it was programmed with FPP as default.

I used new vegas as a example of toggle between tpp and fpp the tpp on new vegas was better than the one of fallout 3 due to ironsight but also terrible to the extremely side camera meh....

(but at least in new vegas i can use centered third camera mod that total improve it..)

 

[Sydanyo]

The majority of people who voted for both also stipulated that in a choice between tpp and fpp, they would choose tpp.

Well, that's just untrue. Have you even read the poll thread?

I had to skim through it, all ten pages, just now, to make sure how I remember the discussion going was in fact how it went. Here are some facts for you:

152 people voted for both views. I found 22 people who clearly stated they voted for both views, and who clearly stated they prefer one or the other. There were others who said they voted for both views, but those people had no preference for one over the other. Out of the 22 who did have a clear preference, 11 people said they'd prefer third person and 11 people said they'd prefer first person.

Now, the majority of the people who voted for both didn't even post in the thread. Out of those who posted in the thread, perhaps around half did have a preference. Out of those who did have a preference, exactly half mentioned they'd prefer third person.

You're free to go check the discussion in that thread if you doubt my findings. Unless, of course, we're talking about something completely different than the thread where the poll I mentioned was in the first place.

 

[Sardukhar]

I sense another poll in the making!

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

I sense another poll in the making!

Personally, I like the idea of primarily TPP and then applying FPP when looking through a scope etc- it sounds really natural. I think someone posted a video example of that not that long ago.

 

[Mebrilia]

Well, that's just untrue. Have you even read the poll thread?

I had to skim through it, all ten pages, just now, to make sure how I remember the discussion going was in fact how it went. Here are some facts for you:

152 people voted for both views. I found 22 people who clearly stated they voted for both views, and who clearly stated they prefer one or the other. There were others who said they voted for both views, but those people had no preference for one over the other. Out of the 22 who did have a clear preference, 11 people said they'd prefer third person and 11 people said they'd prefer first person.

Now, the majority of the people who voted for both didn't even post in the thread. Out of those who posted in the thread, perhaps around half did have a preference. Out of those who did have a preference, exactly half mentioned they'd prefer third person.

You're free to go check the discussion in that thread if you doubt my findings. Unless, of course, we're talking about something completely different than the thread where the poll I mentioned was in the first place.

Sorry but i voted FPP/TPP for the same reason..... I prefear have FPP/TPP but if i have to choice between i chose TTP blindly we have enough fp games around and i don't want this game that is an rpg will tend to be a FPS

And most important of all.. i don't remember masterpiece CRPG maded only in FPP maybe the really old the elder scrolls daggerfall beside that i don't consider even DEUS ex HR to be a rpg....


And most important:

If you tell in the game we will have a lot of customization and then you force the wiew to be FPP based...you are just joking people... Because FPP never allow costumization in character but only in weapon and gear....I don't recognise a FPP game with huge customization...So in the end state the game will be filled with customization and made it FPP only with some TPP element is not only a bad bad move but is also utterly stupid....

That's my opinion of course....

Is pointless have the opportunity to customize your character if you are stuck 90% of the game in first person wiew...

I am sure will be toggleable

 

[Sydanyo]

There are plenty of things you can't do without having either view mode. Things can't be done in first person mode only, and some can't be done in third person mode only. Things I can think of would be somewhat hard to do properly without jumping into first person mode at least temporarily:

Weapon iron sights.
Weapon scopes.
Zooming (binoculars, cyber eyes.)
Looking more than 45 degrees up without having the player model be in the way.
Character's own HUD, as in what the character sees, not what you see. You'd have to be inside his head, ie. first person, for this.

Anything else anyone can think of?

 

[Mebrilia]

Yes but absolutely nothing not inherent to combat.... Visual style is also very very important in cyberpunk setting they are creating an rpg not a COD implant ops...

I want see the gear i wear i want see my character walking in the street..

I want see how look she cool when she slam a potato in the face of a gang badguy...

I want see the visibile implant and what my character dress....

I want see tatoo and also hairtyle....

This not just add deep and immersion in a rpg.. but helps a lot in the visual style that in that setting have a style is important...

To me a switch between FPP/TPP via mouse wheel will be the best thing...

Like Mike sayd: The important is the feel...

And you can't get the feel if the only customization you can do is just apply scope on weapons or have shiny things on your hud....Don't even mentioning that the thing you listed are also possible in a TPP visual...

I still think that FPP wiew is necessary when you scope or when you must score a precise hit in a 45 degree.. But is also true that FPP wiew also restrain the visual in some manner.... like the log example i did...

 

[Sardukhar]

I kind of enjoy melee finishers in FPP in Skyrim or Chivalry. Feels very visceral.

That said, check out the video link I posted from Witcher 3. I MUST see that in CP2077 with Thai Kick Boxing or a BigRipp and that means TPP finishers at least.

 

[schiff]

Regarding the whole "immersion" issue, I don't honestly think I'm the only one who watched TV, movies as a child and teenager (and adult, a lot of the time) seeing the hero/heroine and picturing yourself in his/her place. We've all been conditioned to see ourselves in the third-person in that situation. I've never understood why this isn't considered just as easy in a game.

I remember i posted a link about immersion in some thread where this argument was going on...but i can't find it. Essentially there are more kinds of immersion regarding visuals, sensorial info, roles, story stuff. A thief hero will do thief hero things, a forest will look and behave like a forest, a city will be full of people doing people stuff. I'd list them if i had the damn link...
That said there are games that don' t attempt immersion at all levels and are simply meant for action and cool stuff. Action games happen to share crappy plots and impossible buildings most of the time. Now, the closest thing to what players refer as "immersion" is spatial presence into the game which is the most unique feature games have on movies. It's also all consciously or unconsciously simulated in third person: whenever you are thinking about a book, a chair, an object or an action like calling a taxi with a friend, it's all mind simulated in third person while the only FPP stuff are memories. That goes for FPP too as weapons and arms are the only things hinting at the avatar body behaviour, a third person point of reference, and the simulation often won't match the actual movement animation given you can actually see your feet and body.
So that's my little attempt drawing the line between immersion and spatial presence from games and movies.

 

[Mebrilia]

I kind of enjoy melee finishers in FPP in Skyrim or Chivalry. Feels very visceral.

That said, check out the video link I posted from Witcher 3. I MUST see that in CP2077 with Thai Kick Boxing or a BigRipp and that means TPP finishers at least.

Yep they are kinda cool and even immersive but i can't imagine to play an rpg forced to have a first person only... I usually play skyrim using both visual TPP for melee and FPP for bow and spell i have not problem with FPP as a long there is a toggle to switch between the two visuals....

Deus ex hr had a cute story but i had kinda forced me to play it.. Just because i can't stand for the majority of time stuck in a FPP wiew even when i am wandering the street lol....

 

[Sydanyo]

Well, for me, as has always been the case, the preference would be the ability to move the camera wherever you want. I'd personally be in first person when in shooting combat, or when investigating places so that I can look closely at things without having my guy in the way, in different forms of third person (over the shoulder, way above the head, moving camera) when in dialogue and moving around, perhaps some third person when in melee combat. I'd love to have the feeling of actually having cybernetic eyes with all the cool shit in them (HUD and so on), so that would definitely require being in first person.

These are all things many people have brought up in these threads, and things the developers at RED clearly understand and appreciate, if they're officially going the way of having both views.

As far as the looks of the guy go, I'd personally be happy with seeing him in dialogue situations and cutscenes, perhaps performing takedown moves and so on, as long as there'd be some kind of a way to throw the view to third every once in a while to check him out, or have the model be shown in some inventory screen. I mean, I get all the player model changing (body, eyes, hair, face) addons for TES and Fallout games, and then spend my time in first person mode. Go figure.

 

[Mebrilia]

And this is why i thin a toggle to switch visual is the best way to handle all the situation...

TPP because allow more accurated movement whitout be stuck cause something is pressing on your bottom.. il also ideal to get the feeling when you walk in the street seeing your character designed how you want walking or even sneaky and take cover using the shadows in sneaky situation...
It allows also to see the visual customization you do in your character and also make you interact visually better in the envirovment

FPP i used it for more accurancy in certain situation... as you mentioned during investigation quest when i have to search hidden things or examining to find relevant track... Or in combat.. For scope and for better aiming in the situation that require it....

In the end if this game end to be a FPP with just some TPP element will miss a lot a feautre and one of them is the customization..

 

[schiff]

found the link about the immersion thing btw. Comments are even more interesting and go a bit deeper.
http://www.psychologyofgames.com/2010/07/the-psychology-of-immersion-in-video-games/

 

[blank_redge]

I sense another poll in the making!

Sard's poll sense is tingling.

Usually only happens in Boys' Town for him. =D