When in first person view, I really hope if you look down you can see everything below your neck. It would really help immersion, especially if Oculus support happens. I think Oculus is going to be the wave of the future. Motion controls were a valiant effort, but that's not the thing that was going to change everything. VR will. I fully expect the next consoles after PS4/XB1 to come bundled with an Oculus type headset.
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Well every game that have had it implemented have had it implemented badly. Often you only see from your waist down and you head seem like it's gigantic. A very good example of this is Dead Island, was very poorly made. But if it's done in a good way I suppose it would look okay.
I think F.E.A.R. did your body well. Didn't bother me slightest, was actually cool pulling all those kicks and slides in first person.
Few points that have come up. First person view somehow restricting customization is simply not true. Customization has nothing to do with with either view. It's simply meta game stuff that you do in character and inventory screen.
3rd person view somehow restricting the view. Well the if you think about it the damn gun in first person often takes at least as much room as the guy infront of you.
Also funny how people say that melee would suck in first person, granted 3rd would give more options. But Elder Scroll games are actually only games where blocking is done well. Okay yeah I wouldn't even wanna try dodge in first person, makes me dizzy just to think of it.
I like dodging in games but heck I've been dodging around enemies since original Soul Reaver to the Mars: War Logs.
When I got my hands on Deus Ex: HR I remembered something I had forgotten with all the rpgs I had played over the years and that is that I just enjoy playing and moving in first person so much more.
Mostly my preference and since I grew up playing Quake, Quake 2 and Team Fortress it just comes naturaly for me, but it's like driving a car pay attention to your surroundings and remember enviroment where you are and you wont bumb into things. And if you do it takes under second to realize it and manouver around it.
Anyways I think people are jumping a gun here bit. We don't exactly know what were getting yet but it is fpp/tpp so people should be going "yay" instead of "nay".
Personally I'd like to have it as options similar to Skyrim. Since I wanna interact and move and shoot even when not scoped in fpp. When I get new gear I quickly check myself in tpp and switch back. Driving I'd would then again do in 3rd person.
Few points that have come up. First person view somehow restricting customization is simply not true. Customization has nothing to do with with either view. It's simply meta game stuff that you do in character and inventory screen.
3rd person view somehow restricting the view. Well the if you think about it the damn gun in first person often takes at least as much room as the guy infront of you.
Also funny how people say that melee would suck in first person, granted 3rd would give more options. But Elder Scroll games are actually only games where blocking is done well. Okay yeah I wouldn't even wanna try dodge in first person, makes me dizzy just to think of it.
I like dodging in games but heck I've been dodging around enemies since original Soul Reaver to the Mars: War Logs.
When I got my hands on Deus Ex: HR I remembered something I had forgotten with all the rpgs I had played over the years and that is that I just enjoy playing and moving in first person so much more.
Mostly my preference and since I grew up playing Quake, Quake 2 and Team Fortress it just comes naturaly for me, but it's like driving a car pay attention to your surroundings and remember enviroment where you are and you wont bumb into things. And if you do it takes under second to realize it and manouver around it.
Anyways I think people are jumping a gun here bit. We don't exactly know what were getting yet but it is fpp/tpp so people should be going "yay" instead of "nay".
Personally I'd like to have it as options similar to Skyrim. Since I wanna interact and move and shoot even when not scoped in fpp. When I get new gear I quickly check myself in tpp and switch back. Driving I'd would then again do in 3rd person.
@ Lolssi83
FPP 'restricting' customisation isn't the issue, the issue is not being able to see those customisations as much as TPP.
I cut my gaming teeth on quake and I moved on to Counter Strike, Medal of Honour and Battlefield 1942. I enjoy FPS games. The thing for me is that the technology used to create games has moved on, so we can get higher quality gameplay in TPP than we used to. That is why I am hoping for the primary view to be TPP with 'aiming' being FPP.
FPP 'restricting' customisation isn't the issue, the issue is not being able to see those customisations as much as TPP.
I cut my gaming teeth on quake and I moved on to Counter Strike, Medal of Honour and Battlefield 1942. I enjoy FPS games. The thing for me is that the technology used to create games has moved on, so we can get higher quality gameplay in TPP than we used to. That is why I am hoping for the primary view to be TPP with 'aiming' being FPP.
Another person having problems with the low FOV in Skyrim.
I say give both FPP and TPP equal priority for once, because you'll either mess up one or the other if you give one priority over the other.
FPP: I want to see my body, just like in Mirror's Edge. And my feet.Gordon Bennett said:
Anyway. A combination of FPP and TPP with aiming being in FPP would be the worst, since it is very very disorienting. Also, I like FPP and normally it is my primary perspective in any game that lets me choose. I find it a lot easier to feel immersed in a game when I am playing in first person.
By the way, 3rd person over the shoulder is horrible if not executed well. It normally comes with an incredibly low FOV, making me feel sea-sick all the time when playing such games. It can be good, but the problem is: it's rarely executed well enough, and almost always restricts your view.
Interesting...
The reason I voted for both was simple. I don't feel the need to exclude others with preferences from enjoying themselves.
However, there are a few salient points that (admittedly skimming) I've not seen raised here.
First, the one that has been mentioned, but bears repeating, if not engraving onto the point of a jackhammer and threatening the FPS infidels with: Melee and FPS together are the only combination of things I will rail against as being unnatural and against the will of (insert deity here).
Now, on to my (hopefully) original qualms with FPS focused gameplay.
1: We've all learned from that other game that turn-based combat is, if not dead, then definitely in need of a revolution. Granted? Yet there's the whole skill aspect to the RPG with weapons, and furthermore, this is Cyberpunk, so how the hell does a smartgun work with guns in FPS? Just giving a slightly narrower cone of fire seems cheap when you consider the actual... I dunno... The way that they work in the first place? They don't compensate for recoil, they don't reduce spread, they don't make the gun more accurate, they make you more accurate. I'm no coder, but I can only think of one (somewhat cheesy and pointless for any FPS player) way to implement this in FPS, but several for TP, and more if you bring perspectives into play (point-click style).
2: So many skills, so few easily represented in FPS. I'd find it a lot easier to accept someone sneaking up on me/past me in TP than FPS. In FPS having someone just "magically appear" in my field of vision feels, well, pretty ridiculous. In TP, it's at least a known convention, and translates well. Awareness/notice can be done a number of ways, but unless you get magical pings for when you, albeit briefly, were looking the wrong way while walking in FPS, you just never see stuff, whereas the FOV in TP is by far more manageable. Sure, I'm playing a trained observer (a cop for example) but I'm not one. If my character can spot things I normally can't, can shoot straighter than I ever could (even with all those years of Counterstrike back in the day), then being fully immesed in the skull of that person, seeing things through their eyes is more than a little... What's the opposite of immersive?
3: Just a little personal touch. When I used to GM, I loved forcing players to adopt the body language of their character in social settings. They didn't have to do Batman voices or anything, but it added an element of realism and communication that you cannot even pretend to emulate in a gratifying way in FPS. An ability to add such depth to the game would make me weep tears of joy. The game being the way it is, I wouldn't even bother putting it forward as a suggestion, as so many would miss it completely. Just sayin'...
Finally, to wrap up and reiterate: I like playing characters that have skills I don't have, but also lack skills I possess. Maybe that's just me. Lots of things are. However, I can shoot just fine in FPS. I managed to give up on small guns skill in Fallout NV when I realised I could outshoot 100 small guns in VATS without putting a point in it. So I didn't. Finished with ease with guns as my only weapons. To my mind, that's a pretty massive hole right there, a game-breaker imnsho. I'd like to know how exactly the FPS fans would deal with this aspect, let alone cope with the results if they worked out.
Once again, I am more than happy for them to have the gaming experience they want, and am willing to cope with all the niggles that come with accommodating two very different styles of game. However, just as I am a rabid atheist, a rabid realist, a rabid science fan and a rabid nerd, I am also a rabid gamer. I tend to have to heavily moderate my statements in public. The flipside of this is that I am highly reactive to statements that are both lacking the small degree of tact I manage, and also have little validity. So, by all means state you like FPS, you are comfortable with it, and the few times you stepped out of your comfort zone things were less than comfortable. Please, for the good of sound reasoning, general rightness and overall not-making-me-lose-my-nut, don't make statements beyond those facts. Anything beyond that I have read so far has been less than clinical, less than factual, and lives in the world of opinion stated as fact. By all means, take that sort of talk off to the Fantasy RPG realms, where passionate arguments about appropriate elven breast size are the norm, and leave the hard scifi to those of us who understand science, and are hard to deal with. Oh, and if you could take your teen vampire novels out of the scifi section of the bookstore on your way out, that'd be great
/rant
The reason I voted for both was simple. I don't feel the need to exclude others with preferences from enjoying themselves.
However, there are a few salient points that (admittedly skimming) I've not seen raised here.
First, the one that has been mentioned, but bears repeating, if not engraving onto the point of a jackhammer and threatening the FPS infidels with: Melee and FPS together are the only combination of things I will rail against as being unnatural and against the will of (insert deity here).
Now, on to my (hopefully) original qualms with FPS focused gameplay.
1: We've all learned from that other game that turn-based combat is, if not dead, then definitely in need of a revolution. Granted? Yet there's the whole skill aspect to the RPG with weapons, and furthermore, this is Cyberpunk, so how the hell does a smartgun work with guns in FPS? Just giving a slightly narrower cone of fire seems cheap when you consider the actual... I dunno... The way that they work in the first place? They don't compensate for recoil, they don't reduce spread, they don't make the gun more accurate, they make you more accurate. I'm no coder, but I can only think of one (somewhat cheesy and pointless for any FPS player) way to implement this in FPS, but several for TP, and more if you bring perspectives into play (point-click style).
2: So many skills, so few easily represented in FPS. I'd find it a lot easier to accept someone sneaking up on me/past me in TP than FPS. In FPS having someone just "magically appear" in my field of vision feels, well, pretty ridiculous. In TP, it's at least a known convention, and translates well. Awareness/notice can be done a number of ways, but unless you get magical pings for when you, albeit briefly, were looking the wrong way while walking in FPS, you just never see stuff, whereas the FOV in TP is by far more manageable. Sure, I'm playing a trained observer (a cop for example) but I'm not one. If my character can spot things I normally can't, can shoot straighter than I ever could (even with all those years of Counterstrike back in the day), then being fully immesed in the skull of that person, seeing things through their eyes is more than a little... What's the opposite of immersive?
3: Just a little personal touch. When I used to GM, I loved forcing players to adopt the body language of their character in social settings. They didn't have to do Batman voices or anything, but it added an element of realism and communication that you cannot even pretend to emulate in a gratifying way in FPS. An ability to add such depth to the game would make me weep tears of joy. The game being the way it is, I wouldn't even bother putting it forward as a suggestion, as so many would miss it completely. Just sayin'...
Finally, to wrap up and reiterate: I like playing characters that have skills I don't have, but also lack skills I possess. Maybe that's just me. Lots of things are. However, I can shoot just fine in FPS. I managed to give up on small guns skill in Fallout NV when I realised I could outshoot 100 small guns in VATS without putting a point in it. So I didn't. Finished with ease with guns as my only weapons. To my mind, that's a pretty massive hole right there, a game-breaker imnsho. I'd like to know how exactly the FPS fans would deal with this aspect, let alone cope with the results if they worked out.
Once again, I am more than happy for them to have the gaming experience they want, and am willing to cope with all the niggles that come with accommodating two very different styles of game. However, just as I am a rabid atheist, a rabid realist, a rabid science fan and a rabid nerd, I am also a rabid gamer. I tend to have to heavily moderate my statements in public. The flipside of this is that I am highly reactive to statements that are both lacking the small degree of tact I manage, and also have little validity. So, by all means state you like FPS, you are comfortable with it, and the few times you stepped out of your comfort zone things were less than comfortable. Please, for the good of sound reasoning, general rightness and overall not-making-me-lose-my-nut, don't make statements beyond those facts. Anything beyond that I have read so far has been less than clinical, less than factual, and lives in the world of opinion stated as fact. By all means, take that sort of talk off to the Fantasy RPG realms, where passionate arguments about appropriate elven breast size are the norm, and leave the hard scifi to those of us who understand science, and are hard to deal with. Oh, and if you could take your teen vampire novels out of the scifi section of the bookstore on your way out, that'd be great
/rant
Ok for some reason I had hard time understanding parts of your post so I just answer to number 2
Personally I'm usually passive skills guy when I'm leveling so I don't expect me doing anything differently than before. Actually I must be going rather slow at the moment because I can't even think one skill that would seem somehow different in TPP. You'll use your hands to most things anyway and even if you would lit yourself on fire you'd see that also.
Someone appearing in your field of vision ain't no bigger thing than me turning my head at work and seeing people walking. I don't go "Holy shit where did that guy come from?!"
About the awereness thing, one way could be having some upgrade/hud that lights interesting things up (monster hunting wink wink). But I know what you mean that you might miss things in FPP if you aren't adept with it or if we get low FOV.
I believe Captain Death's comments about skills are derived from the idea of less player skill requirement and more about that characters individual skill. Think of it like comparing Fallout Tactics, (with realtime combat,) to Fallout 3, (ignoring VATS.)
The ability of a character in Tactics to use a weapon was purely down to their stats and skills, while in 3 you could get away with your character having little or no skills in guns yet you could still be a sharp shooting badass if the players skills were up to par.
The ability of a character in Tactics to use a weapon was purely down to their stats and skills, while in 3 you could get away with your character having little or no skills in guns yet you could still be a sharp shooting badass if the players skills were up to par.
Thanks for the replies guys! I think I'll enjoy my limited time here very much indeed!
Lolssi83: When I was talking about sneaking people faffing into existence, I was more worried about the one's who do it in front of you. Sneak/hide skills versus awareness checks can work in favor of the ninjing person even when you're looking straight at them. Then when they bust out to gank you, it's like that scene in Aliens, where they just come out of the walls. In a 3D environment, unless every bit of sneaking is carefully scripted, that means people just pinging into existence in your field of view in FPS. In old-school isometric, this is no problem, as it's well established that everything you can see on the screen is everything your character(s) can see and nothing more. I can see that convention being stretched to TP but I don't hold out hope for it working well in FPS, unless everyone with a reason to sneak all have stealth suits.
TL;DR: Not talking peripheral vision, but more if someone "De-Sneaks" right in front of you, chances are that'd be fairly immersion-breaking.
CrisWebb2020: If even half of your nigh-on 2k posts are as insightful and eloquent as those I've read so far, I'm going to enjoy my time here a lot more than I'd previously imagined. Yes, what you said in two short paragraphs sums up what I flailed at vaguely in my wall of text. Hats off to you, good sir!
Lolssi83: When I was talking about sneaking people faffing into existence, I was more worried about the one's who do it in front of you. Sneak/hide skills versus awareness checks can work in favor of the ninjing person even when you're looking straight at them. Then when they bust out to gank you, it's like that scene in Aliens, where they just come out of the walls. In a 3D environment, unless every bit of sneaking is carefully scripted, that means people just pinging into existence in your field of view in FPS. In old-school isometric, this is no problem, as it's well established that everything you can see on the screen is everything your character(s) can see and nothing more. I can see that convention being stretched to TP but I don't hold out hope for it working well in FPS, unless everyone with a reason to sneak all have stealth suits.
TL;DR: Not talking peripheral vision, but more if someone "De-Sneaks" right in front of you, chances are that'd be fairly immersion-breaking.
CrisWebb2020: If even half of your nigh-on 2k posts are as insightful and eloquent as those I've read so far, I'm going to enjoy my time here a lot more than I'd previously imagined. Yes, what you said in two short paragraphs sums up what I flailed at vaguely in my wall of text. Hats off to you, good sir!
I think this could be solved with making a simple decission that without a form of stealth technology, you just cannot hide in plain sight. Also, allowi the "Awareness/Notice" skill to detect things that are otherwise outside the on screen field of vision. Take Alpha Protocol's "Awareness" ability as an example:
The character is aware of targets due to hearing them moving around, talking or even through an uncanny 'sixth sense'. This is represented by a chevron highlighting enemies within a given proximity based on the skills level for a given time, (also based on skill level.) Something similar, (affected by the opposing skills and actions as well as the characters own abiities and equipment,) should make things fairly realistic.
On a related note, have you read the HUD thread? I think you would quite like the modular HUD idea that was bounced around.
I am sure many members of the forum would be more than willing to agree with me, (just this once,) when I say they aren't...
But thank you
Yeah, they really aren't. We can agree on that. Sneeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...breathe...eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer.
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