Dear CD Projekt Red, let's talk about shotguns.

[MakoRuu]

I've watched every second of footage that was released about three or four times, and I am absolutely in love with it. Super hyped for the game, I pre-ordered in May for my birthday, and now I just have to wait.

But I have one nagging concern. Please do not mess up shotguns. EVERY Single game gets shotguns wrong. Every single one. I have yet to play a game with good shotgun ballistics.

After watching the reviewer footage, I noticed a Corpo play through has a shotgun pistol, and he's firing at some SUV's that are in pursuit, and the shotgun looks like it can barely hit the target at what seems to be around 20 yards.

Yes, it looks like it's doing a ton of damage, but the spread is ridiculous. 10 - 12 feet at that distance is not realistic. As someone who owns a collection of firearms, I can assure you that shotguns are quite deadly, even out to 100 yards. Even without a full bore choke on a 12 gauge short action barrel, you can hit a basket ball sized target with buckshot at 100 yards very easily. Which is what I'm assuming you want the guns to fire, considering #6 shot is for birds and small animals like squirrels and snakes.

Please watch this video, and more like it, so that you really nail down shotguns. And maybe go out to some ranges and test them yourself. I really want to tear up night city with a big shotgun and feel like a badass in your game. I hope I can do that.

If you want, you can come by and shoot some of my guns, too.


Thank you for your time.

 

[4RM3D]

Please do not mess up shotguns. EVERY Single game gets shotguns wrong. Every single one. I have yet to play a game with good shotgun ballistics.

Getting ballistics right is more difficult that one might think because there is a lot of stuff involved.

Either way, very few games have such realism and, for CP2077, that's not the most important thing considering the "bullet sponge" enemies because of level differences.

 

[TheSpoonman]

The thing about shotguns in games is, if they were more realistic, they would make so many other guns obsolete. Why use an SMG at medium range when you can just do all that damage in one shot?
Trust me, I'm with you on shotguns being ill-represented in most games (I can't tell you how many times I've outlined an enemy at close range with the pellet spread) but it's a balance thing for the game.
If I'm not mistaken, they did mention there would be different ammo types, so maybe we'll get slugs.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

Videogames have shotguns that way to avoid them being overpower. And yes, CP77 is the further I can think about to realistic/immersive approaches.

 

[gogmeister777]

EVERY Single game gets shotguns wrong. Every single one. I have yet to play a game with good shotgun ballistics.

I get what you're saying but I don't think it's so much they get it wrong, it's just that they deliberately make shotties feel that way in order to give them a specific purpose within the game mechanics. Realism therefore takes a backseat. So from the developers point of view, they're getting it right.

Given the futuristic setting, and lack of detailed gunplay and weapons info, I have no idea where CP2077 will be on this scale of things. Maybe we'll be lucky and there'll be enough different shotguns to have various usages.

 

[northrop]

CP2077 is not a gun simulator?! OMG!!! Pre-order cancelled!!!!11!11!!1

 

[MakoRuu]

I understand a lot of multiplayer first person shooters gimp shotguns because they would unbalance the matches, but in a single player RPG where I can do what I want, it shouldn't matter.

 

[Adamantium_X]

I agree with you, but I guess that weapons will suffer some type of "gameification" given the fact that this is an RPG and realism isn't the main objective (even though I'm all for it).

Similar thing happens with assault rifles.
Given their high accuracy and high rate of fire they are simply unmatched by other weapons.
Military and SWAT units use them for a reason.
In order to balance things out, developers usually nerf their damage output significantly.
And you get a bizzare result that getting shot once with an AK/AR(or some other equivalent) deals less damage than getting shot once with a pistol.

In order to balance things, I would suggest a different approach - a realistic one.
1) Rifles and shotguns are not concealable weapons. They have to be carried in hand or with a shoulder belt.
Store them in your cars trunk while not carrying them with you.

2) Make them illegal. (long barrel ban for ordinary citizens)
This makes them considerably more expensive and available only through black market vendors.
Carrying them with you should bring you negative attention.
Police should try to disarm you and arrest you, or attack if you resist.

Paramilitary and corp groups, as well as gangs should try to disarm you through dialogue if you are on neutral terms with them (cause why would they let some unknown and unpredictable guy/gal wield that kind of firepower on their territory), or shot at you on sight if you are on hostile terms or they are on some kind of security alert.
Friendly factions should tolerate you, obviously.

This makes you plan your approach. Bring the heavy guns if you are sure that you are going in guns blazing (or as a back up plan if you are going in stealthy)
If you plan to go into a quest peacefully, or trying to infiltrate the location before shit hits the fan, bring pistols, small concealable SMGs and melee weapons.
Heavy weapons are a hindrance in this approach.

This way:
nerf ≠ less damage, less accuracy
nerf = you can't pull out rifles and shotguns out of your ass when you please, you need to go to your car and take them. carrying them constantly is not practical as it gets you in trouble

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

What the OP wants won't happens for the same reason NPC aren't forcibly OS by headshots (without special things of course).

 

[MakoRuu]

People keep bringing up that this game is an RPG, like I think it's some kind of Call of Duty/GTA Hybrid.

I am fully aware of what Cyberpunk is. I've been playing Cyberpunk 2020 since the 90's, and I've been patiently waiting for this game since the announcement trailer.

I have hundreds of hours in all the Witcher games, as well.

I am fully aware that this is an RGP.

However, that does not mean it has to have poor shotgun physics.

 

[gogmeister777]

I understand a lot of multiplayer first person shooters gimp shotguns because they would unbalance the matches, but in a single player RPG where I can do what I want, it shouldn't matter.

I find the whole realism versus game mechanics interesting and, again, I get what you mean.

In single-player games I think it boils down to wanting the player to have to pick and choose playstyles and what skills to put points in.

If a player can use a shotgun and be devastating up close but then also deal out big damage at range then the other options seem less attractive.

 

[MakoRuu]

I find the whole realism versus game mechanics interesting and, again, I get what you mean.

In single-player games I think it boils down to wanting the player to have to pick and choose playstyles and what skills to put points in.

If a player can use a shotgun and be devastating up close but then also deal out big damage at range then the other options seem less attractive.

Shotgun Surgeon is a lifestyle. lol

 

[Bloodartist]

I find the whole realism versus game mechanics interesting and, again, I get what you mean.

I find it funny that we have forum moderators defending the removal of certain game elements using "realism" as an argument... And we have threads like this where people are argumenting the exact opposite way....

Personally, I think shotguns work the way they do in games so that they are sufficiently distinct from other firearms.

 

[Sardukhar]

I find it funny that we have forum moderators defending the removal of certain game elements using "realism" as an argument.

I think this is a shot at me. If I'm speaking as a moderator, you'll know it. My -opinion- on removing or adding elements is just that, based on running and playing Cyberpunk 2020 for 30 years and my personal tastes.

Cyberpunk 2020 is based on realism. Simple. R.Talsorian goes into this multiple times, in the Corebook with examples and in supplements (Ref's guide, Bartmoss' guide, SoF, etc) and in on-site blogs. Adding things or taking them away from 2077 on that basis -is- Cyberpunk, yes.

Realism is important because Cyberpunk could be our world and teleportation, wall running (other than Parkour skill or some kind of very specific cyberware), levitation, flight, 360 no-scope, guns that don't run out of ammo or hit like nerf rounds on lightly or unarmoured targets - all that is silliness. It doesn't happen here and it shouldn't happen (without a very solid, based-in-science explanation/tech) in Cyberpunk.

That said, lots of unrealistic things are going to happen in this game, because CRPGs are not PnP RPGs.

Shotguns in the real world are both more and less effective than video games portray them. They hit out to further ranges -and are deadly- but they are not an auto-kill over, say, a .308 round. At all. Both are deadly. Shotguns are nice for the spread on fast-moving targets and for the shock of solid slug and the penetration of teflon sabot rounds. Real world, people don't have "hit points" so whether 00 buckshot, slug, 5.56 or 10mm pistol, one hit and generally you're done.

The reason they see little combat/overland hunting use is weight and range. Generally smarter to carry a carbine or long rifle to do the same job, with more and lighter ammunition over longer, more accurate ranges.

 

[Cargan2016]

it can barely hit the target at what seems to be around 20 yards.

Yes, it looks like it's doing a ton of damage, but the spread is ridiculous. 10 - 12 feet at that distance is not realistic. As someone who owns a collection of firearms, I can assure you that shotguns are quite deadly, even out to 100 yards.

I for one can say this is absolutely not true maybe inside of 40-50 yards but not outside of that. I know because I was hit in a hunting accident by a shotgun from about 55 yards away and at worst it was like getting hit by a cluster of paintballs really hard. they didnt even break the skin

 

[Sardukhar]

I for one can say this is absolutely not true maybe inside of 40-50 yards but not outside of that. I know because I was hit in a hunting accident by a shotgun from about 55 yards away and at worst it was like getting hit by a cluster of paintballs really hard. they didnt even break the skin

Uhhhh...that was probably birdshot. And I'd bet fired by a .410.

00 gauge will do much much more than that at 50 yards. Each pellet is a .22. Feel free to google some videos on this, 12 gauge at range.

 

[Cargan2016]

Uhhhh...that was probably birdshot. And I'd bet fired by a .410.

00 gauge will do much much more than that at 50 yards. Each pellet is a .22. Feel free to google some videos on this, 12 gauge at range.

was a double-barrel 12 gauge

 

[Suhiira]

Two serious IRL drawbacks shotguns have are rarely shown in video games.
1) Any sort of body armor at all (even most home made stuff) renders most shotgun hits (nearly) ineffective. This is due to the relatively low mass and velocity of most shotgun loads. Even 00 is basically a .22 (as @Sardukhar said), and a low velocity one at that.
2) Range. In house-to-house or trench fighting they're great because most of it is at 10m or less but beyond about 30m they become more-and-more ineffective till at about 60m when there's really no reason to fire (other then to make noise).

Of course most video game have you fighting at ridiculously short ranges and tend to lump all the projectiles fired by a shotgun into one overall damage number, which makes them SERIOUSLY overpowered.

But it's one of those Hollywood/Video game tropes (taking cover behind car doors, grenades leveling buildings, cars blowing up when shot, etc.) that many take as gospel because they've seen it so often it MUST be true.

 

[northrop]

I find it funny that we have forum moderators defending the removal of certain game elements using "realism" as an argument... And we have threads like this where people are argumenting the exact opposite way....

Personally, I think shotguns work the way they do in games so that they are sufficiently distinct from other firearms.

You know what I find funny? People coming up with an open letter to CDPR with their wish lists of things they want to see in a game 3 months before the release.

Technically, it really doesn't matter if this thread was started last week or 5 years ago... at the end of the day, this is just a game, and CDPR can only fit a finite amount of stuff in it. They also have a limited amount of time to work on any given project. It really feels like not a week goes by without someone starting a new thread asking for them to include X, Y, or Z in the game. And don't even get me started when some feature gets scrapped from the game... all hell breaks loose at that point. I can't help but wonder how many people that frequent this forum will be disappointed in the game come release day.

This game is the first of its kind for CDPR. They have a proven track record of improving their games from W1 to W2 and W3, so a certain level of greatness is expected from them, sure, but don't expect it to be perfect. Who knows... if this works out, maybe we'll see another CP game in another 5 years that will further improve things for us. But now? All that's left for us is do is cross our fingers and hope for no more delays

 

[satyrsangre]

This game is the first of its kind for CDPR. They have a proven track record of improving their games from W1 to W2 and W3

not to mention the QoL improvements in the free DLCs they released post launch for TW3. all the changes they made to inventory management post launch based on community feedback? i realise there's plenty reason to to doubt anyone, but we can have a little faith, can't we?

like, even this little?