Defense skill and dodging are very inconsistent

[Gordyne]

Don't dodge back? What would have happened if I dodged to the side? wraith would have gotten me anyway.
Worse, the only way to escape wraith combo is to dodge in the oposite direction. you can parry single hits but not that broken combo.
It's the same logic of: X skill is broken, devs shouldn't fix it, YOU should stop using it.
See how ridiculous this is?

Also if you watch the basilisk video frame per frame you can clearly see that the wing did nit made contact.
It's basic logic. Models didn't clip? No collision should take place. It doesn't matter how or when I dodged. If there was no clipping there shouldn't be damage. Also, if I performed the exact same roll without attacking first the hit wouldn't register.

Also the game is very easy for me, I don't need guides, I can beat anything in this game using all resources and some time to learn their patterns.

I'm sorry but If you really think the wraith gif was my fault then I have nothing more to say to you.

 

[paladinshiva]

Don't dodge back? What would have happened if I dodged to the side? wraith would have gotten me anyway.
Worse, the only way to escape wraith combo is to dodge in the oposite direction. you can parry single hits but not that broken combo.
It's the same logic of: X skill is broken, devs shouldn't fix it, YOU should stop using it.
See how ridiculous this is?

Also if you watch the basilisk video frame per frame you can clearly see that the wing did nit made contact.
It's basic logic. Models didn't clip? No collision should take place. It doesn't matter how or when I dodged. If there was no clipping there shouldn't be damage.

Also the game is very easy for me, I don't need guides, I can beat anything in this game using all resources and some time to learn their patterns.

I'm sorry but If you really think the wraith gif was my fault then I have nothing more to say to you.

Dont think its ur fault. Hate wraiths too. Just think its game mechanics. I just dontlet them start combo. They start it only whenyou hestitate.

 

[Gordyne]

No I like to lure their combo because its way cooler to dodge that, it really requires timing and attention.
I could just use quen but what would be the fun in that.
My dodge was perfect in that gif, it's not mechanics. It isn't a turn game where you can dodge attacks by chance.
The basic mechanic of action and action RPG games is that if the enemy fails to make contact, you won't take damage.
This logic is valid since the PS1 era.

---------- Updated at 03:41 PM ----------

Frame per frame

View attachment 17706

View attachment 17707

 

[paladinshiva]

Look, that attack could be wind attack. You never know.
And are you sure MK was through with its hitboxes? I thought it was more about framing, which is also true for witcher.
Cannot really talk about console RPGs but this is PC. Or at least I am a PC gamer, and the game grew on PC.
On PC if I can recall only handful of RPGs were action 3p, not even implementing hitboxes.
And I myself hate batman series. I find attack boring. 3 punches, very slow very clean, always in contact....

 

[TouPoutsou]

The hitboxes are mess. I really hope they fix fleet footed, which currently only works on roll and not dodge. This gets even worse by the fact that dodge has no iframes at all, while roll seems to have some.

 

[Exentryk]

The hitboxes are mess. I really hope they fix fleet footed, which currently only works on roll and not dodge. This gets even worse by the fact that dodge has no iframes at all, while roll seems to have some.

Dodge does have iframes, but only first half of the animation. But I guess you can't really call it i-frames, because you'll still get hit with unblockables. I guess you could say that the dodge animation only works during the first half of the animation, lol.

 

[Gordyne]

The hitboxes are mess. I really hope they fix fleet footed, which currently only works on roll and not dodge. This gets even worse by the fact that dodge has no iframes at all, while roll seems to have some.

It doesn't work on rolls, in that basilisk fight, I had fleet footed maxed, rolled and still got hit.

 

[paladinshiva]

Just checked again. I have no fleet feet, rolls away just fine no hit....
I just know the animation of wingnswing is faster then roll, and archgriffin and basilisk have double hit in it. So I roll just before they going to launch it. Cuz if you do it when they launch it, itll hit you if not on first then on second

 

[Gordyne]

Just checked again. I have no fleet feet, rolls away just fine no hit....
I just know the animation of wingnswing is faster then roll, and archgriffin and basilisk have double hit in it. So I roll just before they going to launch it. Cuz if you do it when they launch it, itll hit you if not on first then on second

I see your point, but getting hit by something that clearly didn't touch you is very immersion breaking, regardless if you dodged/rolled at the right time or not. I plan to install a difficulty mod for my next playtrhough, and having to work around broken hitboxes really hurts the fun of combat and a chance to have a fair challenge.

 

[shanersimms]

Okay, this is one example that I could find. I am mid dodge, pretty much out of the way of that swipe, but I still get hit.

Well from what I can tell in this clip there's no issue here. That attack performed by the Cockatrice (Basilisk?) (Screecher?) is meant to be a 180-270 degree melee sweeping strike. It doesn't matter that you were hopping in the air as it performed the attack, you were still physically in the attack radius. I actually immensely appreciate the combat physics such as this in W3. For one, not taking damage from an attack requires you to use different maneuvers for different attacks. In this case, a backwards dodge-roll would be the correct maneuver to avoid damage but you improperly used an evade maneuver instead.

Now I mean no offense and not sure if this may be your issue, but many people seem to be stuck in the mentality that as long as you hit the "dodge/evade" button at the right time an attack won't (or shouldn't) hit you as many games operate like this. W3, however, is operating on a more complex/realistic physics level in that it doesn't matter if you hit the evade/dodge button at the right time, you must also consider the nature of the incoming attack along with your positioning relative to the attacker. Even if you evade the attacker's weapon, claws, or wing in this case, so long as the strike comes in physical contact with your character it counts as a successful melee hit for the attacker and an unsuccessful evade for the player.

I think what many are confusing as "clunky" mechanics is actually just a failure to realize the combat system operates on a higher level that other games. Movement is not instant for example. Momentum carries your character one way so changing directions or using a follow-up defensive or offnsive maneuver requires a delay as that momentum is overcome. Yet I can't tell you how many comments I've seen claiming "Geralt doesn't do what I want when I tell him to. All movements are delayed = crappy programming" simply because players compare the realistic movements of Geralt in W3 to physics defying instant direction changing movement of other games they are use to.

Again, not saying this is in any way your issue, but figured this would be a good spot to drop such info as it may be helpful to many who would visit this thread. I think if people adopt the mentality that "If I were physically in this encounter could I do action "x" and really not be harmed if this were real life?" they would see many of their expectations about combat are unreasonable. I then think the true beauty of W3's combat system can shine through and be appreciated for the quality it actually is rather than be criticized for not living up to the unnatural expectations founded by simplified and dumbed-down physics systems of convenience.

As quoted by Albert Einstein: "...if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life thinking it is stupid."

 

[XeidiDent]

Imlerith mace clearly goes through Gerard here:

Wraith is not even close to hit Gilbert here:

Yes. I think there's an inconsistency in the dodge system.

 

[Gordyne]

W3, however, is operating on a more complex/realistic physics level

No, it's actually the exact opposite of that with hits passing completely through geralt sometimes and hiting you when there isnt even a remote possibility of contact between models.
I understand what they tried to do with the sidestep feature, it's supposed to simulate the ability of dodging in close quarter combat wihtout having to roll, that's why you take 0 dmg.

However, the system is inconsistent because:
- You take dmg from any enemy(even bandits) when performing a pefect dodge AFTER you attack;
- The skill that would allow to take no dmg while dodging after attacking simply does nothing, also we shouldn't even need a skill for that;
- Some enemies have completely broken hitboxes, like All large draconids, wraiths, and giants, and NO it's NOT the WIND. Giant wind? Wraith wind? Bunny wind?

I know, i'll make a mod that allows monsters from skellige to be ble to hit Geralt while he's in Velen.
This will be another level of combat and "Hardcores" will love it

 

[shanersimms]

No, it's actually the exact opposite of that with hits passing completely through geralt sometimes and hiting you when there isnt even a remote possibility of contact between models.
I understand what they tried to do with the sidestep feature, it's supposed to simulate the ability of dodging in close quarter combat wihtout having to roll, that's why you take 0 dmg.

However, the system is inconsistent because:
- You take dmg from any enemy(even bandits) when performing a pefect dodge AFTER you attack;
- The skill that would allow to take no dmg while dodging after attacking simply does nothing, also we shouldn't even need a skill for that;
- Some enemies have completely broken hitboxes, like All large draconids, wraiths, and giants, and NO it's NOT the WIND. Giant wind? Wraith wind? Bunny wind?

I know, i'll make a mod that allows monsters from skellige to be ble to hit Geralt while he's in Velen.
This will be another level of combat and "Hardcores" will love it

Oh for sure, I was just more so responding to the person I quoted and in response to claims that the general system was altogether botched. I do believe there are inconsistencies but I'm not convinced they are systematic in nature. I too have experienced issues where a strike goes straight through my character yet I'm not "hit". I've also experienced what XeiidiDent has posted above where a creature such as a wraith swings and is visually nowhere close but somehow I'm still "hit".

However, in my experience these are the exceptions and not the rules. In many cases I believe issues like this are momentary glitches caused by lag or perhaps something else. In my experience MOST of the time a wraith swings at me and visually misses, whether far or close, I'm not hit. Likewise MOST of the time something visually strikes me I take damage. In those situations I believe my claim holds that the W3 combat system is operating on a more advanced/realistic physics level which was my goal to argue that some people may just be misunderstanding the combat system altogether and how it's meant to work.

That being said, I don't disagree that there are certain inconsistencies that should be addressed. A great example is XeidiDen'ts post just before yours. The wraith hit should CLEARLY not have been a hit. Yet I'm curious whether it's directly related to a hit-box issue or something with the Yrden sign in this case. For example... Geralt was standing in Yrden and jumped out as the wraith swung. Also the wraith teleported directly into the Yrden and instantly attacked. I wonder if the game improperly calculated during hit consideration that Gerald's movement should be slowed by Yrden (although he's not a monster so he shouldn't have been) or soome other anomaly. In any case, I hope this clarifies what I meant.

---------- Updated at 05:34 AM ----------

- The skill that would allow to take no dmg while dodging after attacking simply does nothing, also we shouldn't even need a skill for that

Oh and just to mention someone earlier in the posts stated that this is a verified bug with this ability that is being addressed.

 

[Exentryk]

However, in my experience these are the exceptions and not the rules. In many cases I believe issues like this are momentary glitches caused by lag or perhaps something else.

It's clear you do not understand how dodging works in this game. These are not exceptions. This is how dodging works. The mace going through Geralt with no damage is correctly working, because the dodge animation only works for the first half of the animation. The draconid swipe hit me during the 2nd half of the animation, so it doesn't work and I take damage. Couple this with broken hitboxes and unblockable attacks, and the feeling of inconsistent dodge increases.

 

[roizumaaku]

Imlerith mace clearly goes through Gerard here:

Wraith is not even close to hit Gilbert here:

Yes. I think there's an inconsistency in the dodge system.

No, he didn't dodged the second attack from the wraith and so he got hit. It is the hit box in this case not dodge because he did not dodge. Unlike the attack from Imlerith, I dodged in time so no damage was dealt even through it clearly shows the mace should hit Geralt.

The problem that I see here you you don't know the definition of "dodge".

Dodge: Avoid (someone or something) by a sudden quick movement:
-Oxford dictionaries

You do not dodge before you get attacked or after you get attacked. You dodge at the precise moment you see the first quick movement of an attack to avoid it. It clearly showed the wraith attacked twice. You successfully evaded the first one but not the second since you only dodged once as evident. Regardless of the hit box distance if you dodge the second attack correctly you should have avoided it.

To sum it up, this is not a dodge problem. This is a "hit box" issue and is common in every hack and slash game.

 

[Exentryk]

No, he dodged too early from the wraith so he did not dodge here. It is the hit box in this case not dodge because he did not dodge. Unlike the attack from imlerith, I dodged in time so no damage was dealt even through it clearly shows the mace should hit Geralt.

He didn't dodge too early from the wraith. He dodged it perfectly. That's why he takes 0 damage from the first hit. But yes, this is a hit box issue, and not a dodge issue.

 

[roizumaaku]

I shouldn' have to dodge twice because of broken hitboxes.
Also, you would have been hit by that mace if you performed the same dodge after attacking.
I know how to dodge and no amount of timing will save you from ignoring a hit with dodge after attacking.

Wich leads to a very binary and boring playstyle attack-dodge-wait-attack-dodge-wait.
Most ppl won't notice it because they abuse Quen.
If you think I did something wrong or was "slow" in that wraith gif then i won't even discuss it anymore...

I also got hit by the basilisk exaclty like that without using Quen.

No. You should have dodged twice because the wraith attacked you twice? Not unless you think one dodge can evade two successive attacks.

---------- Updated at 06:56 AM ----------

He didn't dodge too early from the wraith. He dodged it perfectly. That's why he takes 0 damage from the first hit. But yes, this is a hit box issue, and not a dodge issue.

I edited it. I meant he did not dodge the second attack. If you watch it closely no damage was taken in the first attack because he dodged. In the second he did not dodge and so he was damaged.

I never relied on hit boxes since I began playing RPGs because this is a game. But I have proved based on my experience in RPGs that as long as you dodge in time no matter what the hit box distance is, you will not get any damage at all.

In turn based or other RPGs, you don't even need to dodge. HIt box is not even important. Remember the "MISS" that shows in MMOs or turn based RPGs? It just happens that games like Witcher 3 needs you to manually dodge an attack and people have thought hit box should be perfect but the truth is it will glitch at times.

 

[Rodoh]

the wraith doesn't even make contact with him and he still gets hit.... what does that have to do with dodging or not ? Were talking broken hitboxes in this scenario...since the very idea of dodging is to get out of the "hit box",so yea its kinda the same thing.

 

[paladinshiva]

Well from what I can tell in this clip there's no issue here. That attack performed by the Cockatrice (Basilisk?) (Screecher?) is meant to be a 180-270 degree melee sweeping strike. It doesn't matter that you were hopping in the air as it performed the attack, you were still physically in the attack radius. I actually immensely appreciate the combat physics such as this in W3. For one, not taking damage from an attack requires you to use different maneuvers for different attacks. In this case, a backwards dodge-roll would be the correct maneuver to avoid damage but you improperly used an evade maneuver instead.

Now I mean no offense and not sure if this may be your issue, but many people seem to be stuck in the mentality that as long as you hit the "dodge/evade" button at the right time an attack won't (or shouldn't) hit you as many games operate like this. W3, however, is operating on a more complex/realistic physics level in that it doesn't matter if you hit the evade/dodge button at the right time, you must also consider the nature of the incoming attack along with your positioning relative to the attacker. Even if you evade the attacker's weapon, claws, or wing in this case, so long as the strike comes in physical contact with your character it counts as a successful melee hit for the attacker and an unsuccessful evade for the player.

I think what many are confusing as "clunky" mechanics is actually just a failure to realize the combat system operates on a higher level that other games. Movement is not instant for example. Momentum carries your character one way so changing directions or using a follow-up defensive or offnsive maneuver requires a delay as that momentum is overcome. Yet I can't tell you how many comments I've seen claiming "Geralt doesn't do what I want when I tell him to. All movements are delayed = crappy programming" simply because players compare the realistic movements of Geralt in W3 to physics defying instant direction changing movement of other games they are use to.

Again, not saying this is in any way your issue, but figured this would be a good spot to drop such info as it may be helpful to many who would visit this thread. I think if people adopt the mentality that "If I were physically in this encounter could I do action "x" and really not be harmed if this were real life?" they would see many of their expectations about combat are unreasonable. I then think the true beauty of W3's combat system can shine through and be appreciated for the quality it actually is rather than be criticized for not living up to the unnatural expectations founded by simplified and dumbed-down physics systems of convenience.

As quoted by Albert Einstein: "...if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life thinking it is stupid."

Very well put.
Thats what inthink too

---------- Updated at 06:01 PM ----------

No. You should have dodged twice because the wraith attacked you twice? Not unless you think one dodge can evade two successive attacks.

---------- Updated at 06:56 AM ----------



I edited it. I meant he did not dodge the second attack. If you watch it closely no damage was taken in the first attack because he dodged. In the second he did not dodge and so he was damaged.

I never relied on hit boxes since I began playing RPGs because this is a game. But I have proved based on my experience in RPGs that as long as you dodge in time no matter what the hit box distance is, you will not get any damage at all.

In turn based or other RPGs, you don't even need to dodge. HIt box is not even important. Remember the "MISS" that shows in MMOs or turn based RPGs? It just happens that games like Witcher 3 needs you to manually dodge an attack and people have thought hit box should be perfect but the truth is it will glitch at times.

Another very good thought. To sum: Fleet feet is bugged, hitboxes are not perfect. In the same time its entirely valid that by learning mechanics of W3 you can dodge and roll anything you want and enjoy the combat.

---------- Updated at 06:02 PM ----------

the wraith doesn't even make contact with him and he still gets hit.... what does that have to do with dodging or not ? Were talking broken hitboxes in this scenario...since the very idea of dodging is to get out of the "hit box",so yea its kinda the same thing.

Dont agree. Very idea is to not get damaged and stay in certain distance.

 

[MrVader]

Nothing wrong with this. Obviously, the wing hit you because you did not time your roll enough. And it's a "roll" which is super slow not a "dodge".

Don't be a slow grandpa. Time your dodges correctly. Here, watch this.

Dodges don't connect as quickly as this for me even when I smash the button.