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The difference is that I've supported my opinion with evidence and examples. That's the difference between simply stating your personal preference and making an argument.
Saying that you've supported your opinion with evidence and examples and how it's not based on personal preference doesn't make others' opinions any less valid. Anyone can bring up evidence and examples and say it's not based on their preference. It's not rocket science, some people like xyz and others don't. Nothing wrong with that, but implying that it's wrong/useless is just your preferences speaking up. Wanting something to be right is nothing new, if you don't like character creation in a narrative driven RPG (however you want to define that genre, most games are a cluster of genres after all ) then play a narrative driven RPG that has a predefined character. It's really simple. Stop making the rules, if the devs want character creation in their game, then so be it. It's still a narrative driven RPG.
 
Character creator was an absolute must. Especially for any multiple playthroughs imo...I just wish we had more clothes, and accessory options. My signature has my character preset of female V that did pretty well if you want to check it out. It comes with a text file with the preset numbers, so you don't necessarily need a PC. You can use PS4 or Xbox with the settings if you didn't feel like making a character, and liked the look of mine to make it easier for you.
 
The difference is that I've supported my opinion with evidence and examples. That's the difference between simply stating your personal preference and making an argument.
You werent trying to prove anything and said that if it was just my preference, then there'd be no discussion, but now you are saying you have an opinion and backed it up with evidence. Are you trolling?

Doesnt matter, allow me to now destroy everything you said with one copypasted penstroke,
the first tenet of cyberpunk is;
"Style over Substance: It doesn’t matter how well you do something, as long as you look good doing it. If you’re going to blow it, make sure you look like planned it that way. Normally, clothes and looks don’t matter in a adventure – in this world, having a leather armor jacket and mirrorshades is a serious consideration."

Thats why you have character customization in CP2077, why they abandoned the generic looking trailer V(especially the male one), it was a placeholder, nothing more. The OP wants The Witcher with a cyberpunk coat and you, I dont know, I give up on trying to figure out what you want.

In fact, considering the above, I'd say there isnt enough customization in Cyberpunk 2077.
 

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One of the biggest allures of RPGs with customizable protagonists is the fact that you can create whatever character you want. They can be any gender, any race you want and you can roleplay them in whatever way you choose (though limits do exist). Set protagonists limit that possibility even more, because at best their actions and responses are limited to fit predefined personality.

In Cyberpunk's case V being a customizable player character is a massive bonus because the game's story is a more personal one. Some people can connect with V and that kind of story better because they're playing a character they created. That kind of connection would be lost for a lot of people if V was a set protagonist.

I know people will bring up Mass Effect and say: "But Mass Effect has character creation." This is true, but when was the last time anyone recognized who your character was? Commander Shepard has a recognizable appearance that everyone will consider canon.
Shepard has default appearances for marketing purposes. Can't promote these kind of games with a faceless blob.
 
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Just because you want something doesn't mean it has a place in the game.

A lot of people wanted Cyberpunk to have GTA-style sandboxing, are we going to start arguing that its absence is a flaw with Cyberpunk just because people wanted it?



I don't find it pointless. I'm simply observing that character creation doesn't work in the creative mold of Cyberpunk as a narrative-driven action game, just as many other potential gameplay systems also wouldn't be a good fit. There are a lot of fun game mechanics out there that don't necessarily have a place in every game.

For character customization specifically, a customizable character isn't necessarily better or worse. Geralt is generally agreed to be an effective protagonist, and the Witcher series has been praised for both characterization and storytelling. It's a very popular game.

Finally, being able to customize your character in Cyberpunk may help you feel more of a connection to the protagonist only because they are more of a blank slate to begin with. This is opposed to, again, Geralt in the Witcher, who has a more defined personality and character that makes him more relatable from the outset.

I would argue that the narrative would be more effective if V had a more concrete background and personality, similar to the Witcher. Perhaps they could differentiated by the life path in terms of appearance and character traits (available dialogue options) which would provide some degree of player choice, but more in line with the style of the rest of the game.
agree that it sucks, it's misleading and stupid to have character creation when V is just as established a character as Geralt or Johnny Silverhand. I wish they had made it more clear instead of purposefully hiding the fact that you, as the player, have no effect on V's personality whatsoever, and even actively misleading people (me) with trailers -- "....you can be anyone, anything...". Beyond that, the character creation isn't even good, OldSchool Runescape has a better character creation system -- they even have a barber and gender changing.

It's not worth removing now though, that would just cause even more backlash and break even more promises than they already have. It might help the narrative but that's the strongest part of the game, and what really needs help are the weakest parts.
 
But not necessarily the better for its quality.

To be perfectly honest, I think CDPR's attempts to be original are where the game most fails. I think their attempts to be innovative resulted in a kind of jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none situation, where they did a lot of things kind-of-okay, a few things quite well, and a few too many things really crappy and messy.

Look at Bethesda: it doesn't take much time playing Fallout 3&4 and Skyrim to see that they are basically just a re-skinning of each other, that the UI is almost exactly the same, ultimately. The crafting system is the same. The dialogue system is the same. Even some of the monsters are the same 3D model; hell, sometimes they didn't even change the name.

And yet, it works. It totally works.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Originality isn't necessarily good, especially when it's being done simply for its own sake rather than in service of a specific goal.
I think CDPR should have been less concerned with standing out and more with making a quality game; then they'd stand out even if they were totally unoriginal in terms of gameplay.
Yeah, originality takes extra effort and I believe they were ready to reach that milestone of what they claimed years ago, but they weren't given the time or clear sense of direction. You see just a lot of things, like enemies having wanted levels on them, some missions being a mix of either a scripted car chase or AI based car chase, some fast travel points being metro, some metros just being blocked off, even if they're modeled. Confused direction and no time... There's no way they would've hit the mark for an original and playable game... Even though they could've pulled it off. The old them (since a game dev positions changed, management changed).

In the end we get what seemed might be a deep system to be shallow waters, cut off too early. What I say is just based off of what I remember and I still feel this game had good parts. Just that... those good parts are the one main path of what they couldn't just cut back on... the story.

Seriously though, they get to work on 3 Witcher games to perfection and even then the development process was a close call, but this time they were expected to just start fresh from the ground up in half the time, without having those 3 tries... and they still ended up salvaging systems like trade from witcher. I still feel bad for the devs and I can still be disappointed by the patch notes... Which is an odd position to be in.
 
That's your own problem. Narrative driven RPGs are designed to have an entire cast of characters that actually play a role and have purpose. Sandbox RPGs are meant for the player to have complete control.
And that's your problem that you have a problem with it.

My money doesn't go to games of that style. Freedom of character creation and demeanor is paramount in any RPG for me. And even if Gerald is sort of a fixed character, you still can chose a few things that book-Gerald wouldn't do.

Plus there are several narrative driven RPGs, specially the classics and modern cRPGs like Baldur's Gate, Pathfinder, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights and many others where you have an overarching narrative and yet your characters are free to be good/evil/whatever. Even a trash tier rpg like Mass Effect has that sort of narrative freedom to an extend.


What I pointed out was a valid criticism to what I and I assume a lot other people would like. Play the witcher world, with a story, but as a different character. But since it's directly based on a book series following the story of the main character, it's understandable it is not the case, even if I would prefer it to be.

V's story is pretty static and lacks freedom as is, the freedom is changing your character looks is more than welcome. If they announced this game, which is based on a table top RPG where the player makes his character and story, with a static main character. I wouldn't have fallen for it and wouldn't have bought this bad excuse for a RPG they need to improve.
 
Sorry, but character creation needs to be expanded, too few options available. Should be able to add any/all facial cyberware that is available in the game at character creation. Better hairstyles and other cosmetics would improve it too, along with different jewelry options for ears, face, nose, etc.

Actually, all body cyberware should also be available at character creation other than the choices of cyber arms such as gorilla arms, etc. That means legs, neck, back should NOT require mods that waste clothing slots, etc.
 
And that's your problem that you have a problem with it.

My money doesn't go to games of that style. Freedom of character creation and demeanor is paramount in any RPG for me. And even if Gerald is sort of a fixed character, you still can chose a few things that book-Gerald wouldn't do.

Plus there are several narrative driven RPGs, specially the classics and modern cRPGs like Baldur's Gate, Pathfinder, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights and many others where you have an overarching narrative and yet your characters are free to be good/evil/whatever. Even a trash tier rpg like Mass Effect has that sort of narrative freedom to an extend.


What I pointed out was a valid criticism to what I and I assume a lot other people would like. Play the witcher world, with a story, but as a different character. But since it's directly based on a book series following the story of the main character, it's understandable it is not the case, even if I would prefer it to be.

V's story is pretty static and lacks freedom as is, the freedom is changing your character looks is more than welcome. If they announced this game, which is based on a table top RPG where the player makes his character and story, with a static main character. I wouldn't have fallen for it and wouldn't have bought this bad excuse for a RPG they need to improve.
You clearly don't understand what I'm telling you. Character creation makes no difference on V as a character and how the world views them. People love the Witcher because of Geralt. You should actually play a game where you don't self implement yourself and you'd have a better understanding of good protagonists, because the world doesn't revolve around you or I.
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It'd kill the RPG element, which there is already little of. I see you quoting and arguing Witcher from the books, but in what books is V? Isn't the Cyberpunk universe from the table-top RPG?

Also, your other arguments are very distasteful in that reply chain, because you put other's 'taste' beneath yours... Even though most disagree with your initial argument. Stop trying to put this game in a box, it's been done to death. It's origins aren't either Witcher or GTA, but a hybrid of it. There's Witcher-like elements, because it's the studio that made that game, there's GTA-like elements, because it's easier to say something like GTA, because GTA nailed open-world. Comparing to GTA is neither good or bad, because individually you wouldn't want to be a copy-cat, but also... you would want to be as good as a GTA open world and better... YET - It's a game off of an tabletop RPG... There's probably way more mixed in that I'm too lazy to argue about, but even though it wasn't towards me, I still feel I needed to address the replies made to others.

I'd say - The harder it is to define a game and make comparisons, the better for it's originality.
Don't see how it'd kill the RPG elements of the game sense there's little to nothing of it. Character creation doesn't belong in a game where the protagonist already is voiced and has a set personality.
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Why I think that the character creation is important, and just one part of the whole experience:

When playing Cyberpunk, you need to believe. Use your imagination. Try to be creative without creating. Take a look at the objects in V's apartment as you progress. Do you really need that ashtray, or the Stamina boosters? Did you buy too many clothes, or why are there so many packages laying around? Is armor really less important than looking great in the photo-mode? Why does V only put weapons from her enemies on the stash wall? Are you becoming your own enemy? Use your brain. It's not about V. It's about your thoughts.
I agree to some extent, but where you fail is V is already a voiced protagonist with their own personality.
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I assume that you do understand that a personal preference does come into play here right?

I just made a post, i'll try to recap quickly: if a character has a good and well established personality (lets call it that) the appearance of that character is not really of consequence, unless you're gonna base parts of that character specifically about their look.
V is our protagonist and she's established and has her own personality. (Think of the Nomad for a moment, just to allign out thoughts on the matter)
V can look a thousand difderent ways for each player, but the experience for go through is the same. He/she says more or less the same things, same tone, same story.. its all the same.
You might as well place a blanc mannequin there.

This means that the look of the character itself does makes a difference, which also means that it'll work with many different looks, which in turn also means that having a character creation menu has just as much of a place as it would not.

And then, if you can create the character of your own wish, then it creates potentially the adsitional component of that its your specially customized V, its a 'unique' V.
Alternatively one can say I dont care, but that also means that whichever character model is used would be fine, by virtue of not having the added investment in then.

Think of it like the difference for a character that you read about in a book or follow during a movie.

(Doing posts like these are a bit arguous via phone, shitton of mistypes auto corrects and fuckall. I hope I could clearly explain what I'm trying to say)
Yet, what you fail to realize is that V is already a character with their own personality that you have zero control over. Character creation is only a glorified model swap for the game. Personal preference doesn't all come down to completely redesigning the look of an iconic character.
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Well perhaps not for you, but my first female V looked a lot like the "cover art" killed every single enemy where possible, never got on with Johnny and got the Devil ending

My next V was not as "hard" looking, no facial implants, piercings or tattoos, only disables enemies, managed to get along with Johnny and got the Star ending.

No one told me my V had to behave in a certain way and never change from that path, sorry I played the game the wrong way. I am used to RPG's I so I did not realise I was not allowed to role play in this game. /sarcasm
I never said V had to behave a certain way, V already behaves a specific way in the game. Where the player comes into play is when the protagonist needs to make a choice with lasting consequences. Geralt of Rivia is the perfect example.
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To me character creation has always been kind of an "added value", an additional part of "fun". It's nice to have it in an rpg game, although not obligatory. It's also actually never ME in the game, it's something between pouring a bit of yourself into a character and jumping into someone else's shoes. For the time being I am V, but V is not me, so to speak (although I might make some decisions based on my own personality, true to my self, if a game allows for it). That's how rpgs work and how you have fun in them, I guess. Character creation let's you have that virtual person more unique and how you would like them to look. In CP2077 it makes a bit more sense than in other games, because it's a lot about the looks in this game's world. My only gripe is that we can see so little of our character, like for example in reflections and real mirrors, instead of those weird electronic ones which we have to turn on to see "ourselves" ;)

Geralt was a predefined character and I was totally ok with that, just as Arthur Morgan in RDR2. You just hop into their shoes and relive their adventures, just like you relive experiences of a character in a good movie. It's a bit hard to explain how it actually works, but we somehow have an ability to identify ourselves with a fictional character in a story as long as this story goes on. In games like Mass Effect or CP2077 we just have a chance to define those characters a bit more to our liking, also thanks to character creation. And that's perfectly fine. Like I said, an added value.
I definitely see and understand what you mean. For me though, I've always preferred a predefined protagonist in a narrative driven RPG and for sandbox I've always liked creating my own character, because a sandbox RPG gives us all the control over the world in the game.
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Character creator was an absolute must. Especially for any multiple playthroughs imo...I just wish we had more clothes, and accessory options. My signature has my character preset of female V that did pretty well if you want to check it out. It comes with a text file with the preset numbers, so you don't necessarily need a PC. You can use PS4 or Xbox with the settings if you didn't feel like making a character, and liked the look of mine to make it easier for you.
How does it though? Changing the established character into another character won't really work when they sound and act exactly the same as your previous character did.
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Thank you for your adivice, but I've tried both games and I don't like them.
Sucks for you.
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I have no idea what to say to this, as you didnt really say anything that changes my original point. character creation and first person allow the player experience and V's story to fall together. I think you didnt understand what I said.
And the same 'you cant see the character so it doesnt matter' argument, it might not matter to you, it does to me. But it does reveal one thing; I think the problem is that V is distant in your mind and you keep her/him there(and this proposal would increase the distance). While I try to get close and see things through V's eyes.
I actually want more customization options(based on what has been leaked, there will be in the future) so that the above connection only gets stronger.

I will never understand when people say they want less options or customization for a player character(in games like this).
How does your connection to V increase when you only see in first person after you customized them? Don't you want to see V? Honestly, getting rid of the character creator will give them resources to work on other stuff than a glorified model swap.
 
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You clearly don't understand what I'm telling you. Character creation makes no difference on V as a character and how the world views them.
I agree to some extent, but where you fail is V is already a voiced protagonist with their own personality.
Yet, what you fail to realize is that V is already a character with their own personality that you have zero control over. Character creation is only a glorified model swap for the game. Personal preference doesn't all come down to completely redesigning the look of an iconic character.
I don't fail to realise that, I also never said she had to be a blanc slate for me to have an increased connection to the way how I want her to look
What you fail to realise I guess is that I prefer to look at an exterior for my V of my own design DESPITE her established personality.
Pretty much the opposite of how you view it, I refer to your view of Geralt, below. To complete it: I prefer to have my own created 'avatar' in any circumstance.
I definitely see and understand what you mean. For me though, I've always preferred a predefined protagonist in a narrative driven RPG


How does your connection to V increase when you only see in first person after you customized them? Don't you want to see V? Honestly, getting rid of the character creator will give them resources to work on other stuff than a glorified model swap.
For the first part: see above, for the second part: not mutually exclusive.
 
In fact, I don't understand for what reason it would seem obvious to cut/remove the character creator :(
- If you don't care (First person view, you like "Base" V,...). You just pick the gender, a "base" V and you play like that.
- If you want a personalized V you can.
Basically everyone is happy... Honestly what could be better ?
 
In fact, I don't understand for what reason it would seem obvious to cut/remove the character creator :(
- If you don't care (First person view, you like "Base" V,...). You just pick the gender, a "base" V and you play like that.
- If you want a personalized V you can.
Basically everyone is happy... Honestly what could be better ?
Wouldn't it be amazing to go to the "share your V' topic and see all V clones ? Oh, wait, probably this topic wouldn't even exist because it would be really boring.
 
How does your connection to V increase when you only see in first person after you customized them? Don't you want to see V? Honestly, getting rid of the character creator will give them resources to work on other stuff than a glorified model swap.
Thats immersion. You see V every time you go into your inventory. Dont need to see her outside of that.
Lack of resources wasnt a problem with the game.
 
Let's keep the conversations on the topic -- not on what we think others should or should not understand. Don't get personal, please.

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On the actual issue, I think the core distinction is a valid one. I also think that some comments are not clearly identifying the two, very different considerations:

1.) Character creation as it applies to gameplay. Meaning: what do I want to do as a player? What sort of character am I creating in my mind? What sort of personality and energy am I imagining, and how do I want to visualize it?

...which is a totally, absolutely, completely, and utterly different concern than:

2.) Character creation as it applies to the narrative. Meaning: what sort of person is V? Not the character the player is imagining -- the character that has been voiced, acted, and personified by the authors of the story. The character that must be visualized in a way that resonates with the action, the setting, the world, and the main themes of the story.

Tough call now, as a developer, as to how much freedom is given over the design. On the one hand, players obviously want to play their way. On the other, I need everything to blend into the strongly built narrative, or it may feel awkward. On the right, we want people to enjoy the gameplay and RPG aspects. On the left, I still need a framework that captures the vision of the story in a cohesive way.

So...yeah. I'd have to agree that customization options can very readily conflict with a strongly narrative experience. Whereas something like Destiny or Mount and Blade offers a lot more leeway with no factors that would distract from the experience. Think of TW3, for example. Imagine the scene where Geralt finally finds Ciri on the Isle of Mists. The moment. Their reunion. The color palette. The music.

Now imagine Geralt in that scene with a blue mowhawk haircut, green tights, and magic chain mail that sparkles with rainbow glitter.

Moment, character, and story: destroyed.
 
I can see geralt having a character, His look is iconic and his demeanour set. But I don't see any character in 'v' they are frame which requires a character that I have to set.

These are some of the characters I have played so far.

1. Corpo Soldier – Katana wielder, takemuda and Oda were my role models for this and it's the one where I wanted to get back with arasaka as my driving goal. His ending was just fantastic. Was my first melee build,.. I just charged at them with a sword :).. like takemura, did everything he could to prove his innocence and back to Arasaka.
2. Street kid netrunner – My first build, insanely over powered by the end, just standing outside a building taking them all out by switching cameras. Anti-corpo as much as she could, gave her life so johnny might live
3. Baseball Bat Mox – This was fun, based her on harley quinn and I replaced the joker in her life with Johnny
4. Nomad Tech – Using shotguns with a keen interest in cars. The DB2 - Satora was my tech shotgun and was amazing fun, eventually realized why he loved nomads so much and managed to go back to that life
5. Corpo Soldier – This time a rifleman, messing around with MG's and such.. this is the build where I learnt the importance of cover, got on with life after leaving arsaka
6. James bond, Corpo Spy – Pistol build

you can see how each would play and look differently, choose different decisions in dialogues and have different decisions in which quests they choose to follow. Character creation is where it all starts, how my valentino looks is very important to me, they aren't just 'v', even down to what car they drive.

without character creation all this is lost and I really don't think 'v' would be much more than generic. The prologue takes them out of their back stories ad aligns their path ready for the main scenario which is where act 2 starts.

anyway, this is why I think character creation is so important
 
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