Detonation of Dragon's Dream is inconsistent

[IosueYu]

Say, if we somehow manage to play Dragon's Dream + Crushing Trap on the same turn, this is generally the sequence of events:

1. Dragon's Dream + Crushing Trap
2. Opponent's play
3. Your play
4. Opponent's play
5. Your play -> Crushing Trap activates
6. Dragon's Dream detonates -> Opponent's play

And, if somehow the opponent passes in Step 4, and we do in Step 5, depending on which Round it is, these happen:

1. Dragon's Dream + Crushing Trap
2. Opponent's play
3. Your play
4. Opponent PASSes
5. You PASS -> Crushing Trap activates
6. [End of Game] if Round 3
7. Dragon's Dream detonates if Round 1 or 2
8. [End of Round] if Round 1 or 2

It means that if both players have passed at the end of Step 5, the game is over if Round 3. But, Step 7 runs if it is in Round 1 or 2.

Also, the wordings are very confusing.

Dragon's Dream:

Apply this row effect to an enemy row:
After 3 turns, on turn start, explode and damage all units on this row by 3.

Crushing Trap:

Ambush: After 3 turns, on turn end, damage all enemy units on the row with the most units by 2.
Zeal.
Order: Flip over and damage all units on a row by 1.

Both written "After 3 turns". Dragon's Dream says "on turn start", but Crushing Trap says "on turn end". Yet sequentially, Crushing Trap activates first, due to counting different player's turns.

 

[4RM3D]

As you have already surmised, the difference between Dragon's Dream and Crushing Trap is the detonation time. Turn end means the end of your turn, while turn start means the beginning of the opponent's turn. I know, the description is confusing, but the effect is nonetheless consistent. This also means that when the opponent passes and you pass thereafter, Dragon's Dream doesn't trigger, but Crushing Trap does.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

It means that if both players have passed at the end of Step 5, the game is over if Round 3. But, Step 7 runs if it is in Round 1 or 2.

R1, R2 or R3 doesn't matter for DD. The easiest way to think of it is DD requires 3 opponent turns to activate. If you play it when an opponent has 4+ cards all is relatively straightforward. Opponent turn 1 happens after you place the card and hit turn end. Turn 2 happens the next time it cycles to them. Turn 3 happens the third time it cycles to them. Turn 3 = big boom.

The confusion comes into play when the round is close to ending and the opponent has 4 cards or fewer. In this case, you go off the fact DD requires 3 opponent turns to activate. So if you're going first in the round and the opponent has 3 cards in-hand when you place DD it will activate. If you go second in the round they must have 4 cards in-hand when you place DD.

As 4RM3D pointed out, Crushing Trap is working off of your own turn. DD works off the turn of the person owning the row where the weather was applied. Yes, the card text should probably indicate this is the case.

 

[IosueYu]

As you have already surmised, the difference between Dragon's Dream and Crushing Trap is the detonation time. Turn end means the end of your turn, while turn start means the beginning of the opponent's turn. I know, the description is confusing, but the effect is nonetheless consistent. This also means that when the opponent passes and you pass thereafter, Dragon's Dream doesn't trigger, but Crushing Trap does.

But the triggering differences between Rounds 1, 2 and 3 are something intentional?

Post automatically merged: Nov 21, 2018

R1, R2 or R3 doesn't matter for DD. The easiest way to think of it is DD requires 3 opponent turns to activate. If you play it when an opponent has 4+ cards all is relatively straightforward. Opponent turn 1 happens after you place the card and hit turn end. Turn 2 happens the next time it cycles to them. Turn 3 happens the third time it cycles to them. Turn 3 = big boom.

The confusion comes into play when the round is close to ending and the opponent has 4 cards or fewer. In this case, you go off the fact DD requires 3 opponent turns to activate. So if you're going first in the round and the opponent has 3 cards in-hand when you place DD it will activate. If you go second in the round they must have 4 cards in-hand when you place DD.

As 4RM3D pointed out, Crushing Trap is working off of your own turn. DD works off the turn of the person owning the row where the weather was applied. Yes, the card text should probably indicate this is the case.

Try it. If both have passed in Round 1 or 2, Dragon's Dream detonates. It doesn't when done in Round 3.

 

[4RM3D]

But the triggering differences between Rounds 1, 2 and 3 are something intentional?

It's not about which round you are in, but whether or not you'll have to play first. The details are already explained by
Restlessdingo32.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Try it. If both have passed in Round 1 or 2, Dragon's Dream detonates. It doesn't when done in Round 3.

I have done it in R3. I just happened to be going first in R3. If you're going last in R3 it won't trigger because it goes off the turn start of the opponent. So it goes like so if both players have 3 cards...

1. P1 turn start > play card > P1 turn end
2. P2 turn start > Dragons Dream > P2 turn end
3. P1 turn start > DD turn 1 > play card > P1 turn end
4. P2 turn start > play card > P2 turn end
5. P1 turn start > DD turn 2 > play card > P2 turn end > pass
6. P2 turn start > play card > P2 turn end > pass > game end

Notice P2 didn't have 3 turn starts here after DD was placed. They had 2 turn starts, hence why it doesn't trigger. They would need 4 cards for it to trigger. If it goes like the following instead....

1. P1 turn start > Dragons Dream > P1 turn end
2. P2 turn start > DD turn 1 > play card > P2 turn end
3. P1 turn start > play card > P1 turn end
4. P2 turn start > DD turn 2 > play card > P2 turn end
5. P1 turn start > play card > P1 turn end > pass
6. P2 turn start > DD turn 3 > play card > P2 turn end > pass > game end

Notice P2 has 3 turn starts here. So DD would in fact trigger. You can play it when the opponent has 3 cards left R3 as long as you are going first R3. Otherwise they never hit their 3rd turn start because the game ends. Trust me, I spent a lot of time messing with DD because I got burned when it didn't proc in a game.

Crushing trap, on the other hand, triggers based on your turn end. The confusion is because neither card actually specifies what turn start, end, etc. mean. It doesn't give any point of reference.

If you want to get even more confused, unit triggers appear to behave differently too. Case and point, a Mahakam Defender. If you're going first in a round, pass and the opponent passes afterwards you won't get another proc at the round end because it never rolls back (you will after you pass, before they pass, however). If you're going second you will because you still get a turn end.

 

[IosueYu]

It's not about which round you are in, but whether or not you'll have to play first. The details are already explained by
Restlessdingo32.

The problem is that it does trigger in Rounds 1 and 2 in the same condition that should not have triggered if in Round 3.

Post automatically merged: Nov 26, 2018

I have done it in R3. I just happened to be going first in R3. If you're going last in R3 it won't trigger because it goes off the turn start of the opponent. So it goes like so if both players have 3 cards...

1. P1 turn start > play card > P1 turn end
2. P2 turn start > Dragons Dream > P2 turn end
3. P1 turn start > DD turn 1 > play card > P1 turn end
4. P2 turn start > play card > P2 turn end
5. P1 turn start > DD turn 2 > play card > P2 turn end > pass
6. P2 turn start > play card > P2 turn end > pass > game end

Notice P2 didn't have 3 turn starts here after DD was placed. They had 2 turn starts, hence why it doesn't trigger. They would need 4 cards for it to trigger. If it goes like the following instead....

1. P1 turn start > Dragons Dream > P1 turn end
2. P2 turn start > DD turn 1 > play card > P2 turn end
3. P1 turn start > play card > P1 turn end
4. P2 turn start > DD turn 2 > play card > P2 turn end
5. P1 turn start > play card > P1 turn end > pass
6. P2 turn start > DD turn 3 > play card > P2 turn end > pass > game end

Notice P2 has 3 turn starts here. So DD would in fact trigger. You can play it when the opponent has 3 cards left R3 as long as you are going first R3. Otherwise they never hit their 3rd turn start because the game ends. Trust me, I spent a lot of time messing with DD because I got burned when it didn't proc in a game.

Crushing trap, on the other hand, triggers based on your turn end. The confusion is because neither card actually specifies what turn start, end, etc. mean. It doesn't give any point of reference.

If you want to get even more confused, unit triggers appear to behave differently too. Case and point, a Mahakam Defender. If you're going first in a round, pass and the opponent passes afterwards you won't get another proc at the round end because it never rolls back (you will after you pass, before they pass, however). If you're going second you will because you still get a turn end.

Yes. This condition will not trigger in Round 3 and I have tried a lot.

But it will trigger if it is in Round 1 or 2, and this is wrong.

Do people actually read the words?

 

[Winnz]

Guys, this isn't complicated. It doesn't trigger in round 3, because the game ends after you pass, it doesn't become your opponent's turn, therefore their third turn never starts and it doesn't trigger.

 

[nedders]

Not happy about Dragon's Dream - when are you going to fix the wording and mechanics on these cards??

It CLEARLY says "after three turns", yet if you play it and the third turn is the end, it DOESN'T explode - please can you sort this kind of thing out. I just lost a needless game because of this, now have to make sure I play it with FOUR turns left, else it doesn't work.

 

[4RM3D]

I play it with FOUR turns left, else it doesn't work.

That depends on the situation. This thread gives more information on how it works, exactly.

(Moved the post because it's not an actually ask a dev question.)

 

[Iuliandrei]

Turn end means the end of your turn, while turn start means the beginning of the opponent's turn. I know, the description is confusing, but the effect is nonetheless consistent.

It's actually not, there are several other card with the "turn start" wording and they occur at the beginning of YOUR turn, cards like Ciri Nova or Summoning Circle. Also we had some cards in gwent beta, like Ancient Foglet which also had turn start trigger and it was on your turn aswell.

I had to pick this card in arena a couple of times and yes the description is extremely confusing, also the small markers on the end of the row which indicate row effects only repeat the card description, when they should work as a counter.

 

[nedders]

That depends on the situation. This thread gives more information on how it works, exactly.

(Moved the post because it's not an actually ask a dev question.)

Yep, what it clarifies is that it's worded wrongly - it actually triggers at the START OF TURN FOUR.

Has to be addressed, this is just stupid and incorrect.

 

[4RM3D]

It's actually not, there are several other card with the "turn start" wording and they occur at the beginning of YOUR turn, cards like Ciri Nova or Summoning Circle.

Yep, what it clarifies is that it's worded wrongly - it actually triggers at the START OF TURN FOUR.

There are four phases:
1. Your turn start
2. Your turn end
3. Opponent's turn start
4. Opponent's turn end

Between phase 1 and 2 and between phase 3 and 4 player action is possible, but not between 2 and 3, which means that those phases are usually the same, with the exception of the end of the round.

Phase 3 requires switching back to the opponent's side, which doesn't happen if the opponent has passed and you've also passed or played your last card.

This becomes more tricky when you have to factor in on which side you play your card. Dragon's Dream is played on the opponent's side and thus also uses the opponent's start and end turns (3 and 4), not yours (1 and 2).

I agree that all this makes it unclear when something triggers, but nevertheless it is consistent when you understand the rules.

 

[nedders]

There are four phases:
1. Your turn start
2. Your turn end
3. Opponent's turn start
4. Opponent's turn end

Between phase 1 and 2 and between phase 3 and 4 player action is possible, but not between 2 and 3, which means that those phases are usually the same, with the exception of the end of the round.

Phase 3 requires switching back to the opponent's side, which doesn't happen if the opponent has passed and you've also passed or played your last card.

This becomes more tricky when you have to factor in on which side you play your card. Dragon's Dream is played on the opponent's side and thus also uses the opponent's start and end turns (3 and 4), not yours (1 and 2).

I agree that all this makes it unclear when something triggers, but nevertheless it is consistent when you understand the rules.

But Dragons Dream should trigger at 4, and before the last action - 5. Game End.

This is my problem with it; during the rest of the game it does exactly that, EXCEPT on the game end turn. There should be a triggering of actions at point 4 that happens simultaneously, then you have the end of the game.

Sure, it's consistent, in the sense of it's not going to change, but I am challenging the wording, and therefore the validity of the high provisioning and also the mechanics of the game itself with regards this particular card (does rot tosser 'work' in the same way? or crushing trap? I don't know, genuine question). The point here is that Dragons Dream should be reworded to "at start of fourth turn", because it definitely does NOT go off "at end of three turns". And, as you now need FOUR turns to make it work, the provision should be dropped to 10.

 

[4RM3D]

does rot tosser 'work' in the same way? or crushing trap? I don't know, genuine question

Rot Tosser also uses the opponent's turn, so it's similar. Crushing Trap uses your turn, which makes it different. You need to understand this difference because...

The point here is that Dragons Dream should be reworded to "at start of fourth turn", because it definitely does NOT go off "at end of three turns". And, as you now need FOUR turns to make it work, the provision should be dropped to 10.

This is what I was trying to explain. Dragon's Dream is 3 turns, 3 turns of your opponent. However, at the end of the round, the turn might not go back to the opponent. If you can play the last card, you have to play DD with four turns left because the last turn will be yours and it won't switch to the opponent. However, if your opponent can play the last card, you can play DD with three turns left because the last turn will be the opponent's and it can trigger cards played on the opponent's side. This means the description of the card is still accurate.

To sum it up: When a card is played on the opponent's side, it uses a different timer than when it's played on your side.

Like I've said, this might actually be unnecessarily complex. CDPR could just scrap the triggers in phase 3 and 4 and change all cards like Rot Tosser and Dragon's Dream to trigger on the start of your turn, for clarification purposes.