Did over ambition harm Cyberpunk 2077?

[Neramess]

I don't think it's over ambition or anything like that, I think it's just that gaming culture has changed. People used to joke at how buggy Bethesda's games were at launch, people used to be okay with Fallout New Vegas having a (frankly) criminal time to release, but, I think with Fallout 76 and No Man's Sky, people have started fighting against those industry standards. Cyberpunk is just a game that fell onto its own sword not realizing how the culture has changed imo.

Who knows, maybe now the industry will wise up and have quality QA testing. A man can dream can't he?

 

[WarDaddy3]

Downloading 1.05 patch so I decided to write on this string as a first post. First, let me tell you I am an old guy, 56 years old and have been playing RPGs of all types since 1978. I've been a GM for over 17 years, including a 11 year run on a single campaign group, and a huge Sci Fi consumer since I saw a movie called "Silent Running". Read all the greats, Asimov, Farmer, Tolkien, blah blah blah. I was a large fan of Michael Pondsmith, and his creation called CyberPunk since I read it fresh off presses in '88.

I played a 2+ years in Night City in my campaign. I had to make a world live through speech, communicating, along with the artwork style the world MP created. I will judge this differently than 99% of you. Glitches be damned, this game is Cyberpunk. I had a defining moment on a mission in the game. It made me reflect on a moral choice. I completed the storyline and and I felt it. Not through my fingers and eyes, but through a "who am I" lens no other game I've played in a digital world ever did.

For all the complaining about ambition, dev anger, CEO meddling, "game breakers", et al., this is CyberPunk. Not in a title, splash screen, pathing, glitches, but the FEEL is there. It feels non stop like Night City should. I dare anyone to get on the game past 12AM (in game time) and select your track on the radio, and just drive. Look at it all ! You can almost smell the fumes. You hear a random gun shot or a scream. You listen to the raw full throated roaring of a over powered muscle car. Then just stop get out close your eyes and listen. It is amazing.

I truly applaud what CDPR achieved. This city, in all it's pixelated glory, does truly breathe. If technical stuff is so obsessing your every thought. You are not playing a game, you are play testing. As I said, I grew up in a world of words, not pixels. This game, hands down will correct itself in a short while. CDPR is 100% more worried about is reputation than it's bottom line. This ain't EA or Ubisoft, it will redeem itself. Sometimes greatness stumbles, no one or thing is perfect, but the difference is CDPR will rise to the occasion. In a year, folks will see this run, we'll forget about it learning to crawl and walk at launch.

So for all the angsty people. Have you ever stumbled? Ever have a teacher drill you on a great paper over a few grammatical or punctuation? No one ever comes out walking, we simply enter this world totally dependent on others. We are the metaphorical extended family that must help this "child" mature and be all it can ever be. Less whine, more creative and useful critique.

To the Devs of CDPR, I have faith in you.

Signed
Tony "Rebel" Guttridge, Rockerboy, Lead Bassist and Vocalist of Metalhammer

 

[Xaenz1]

I don't know what CDPR can do to fix this game or even if they can but it seems your average person around the interwebs is finally getting past the shock of how unplayable it is because of bugs/glitches etc and starting to see the MUCH BIGGER PROBLEMS that plague this disasterpiece. I know there's been terrible launches of games in the past but I'm not sure any have been on this scale and so all encompassing and its all magnified by a thousand due to the hype and former reputation of CDPR.

The MGMT is getting nuked from orbit and deservedly so but then they didn't code the game. Who designed/created the "AI"? A monkey? Who designed the loot system? A rock? Who designed the dialog choices and "player agency"? A chat bot?

This is so bad I almost find it hard to accept the project wasn't sabotaged but the sad reality is, you can never overestimate human incompetence. This whole shebang will go down in history as one of the worst disasters in gaming.

And yet I have only encountered one bug so far, had a flatlining issue due to Inputmapper, no flatlining since I stopped using Inputmapper. Unplayable? No.

 

[kissybyc3]

The game is written on an updated version of the RED Engine used on The Witcher 3. RED Engine was developed by CDPR and you can rest assured they know their own tech. As a sidenote research is always useful.

Since you think so highly of research, you must have known already that Red Engine's main advantage is its ability to generate good open world visuals, interactable cutscenes, and branching questlines. I never criticized CDPR for not doing those things well - in fact I praise them for it, and in those areas they clearly know what they were doing.

My criticism is with the other absent elements of a believable modern open world. In those areas CDPR clearly does not know what they were doing.

As a sidenote, reading the original post carefully is always useful.

 

[Gillian_Seed]

And yet I have only encountered one bug so far, had a flatlining issue due to Inputmapper, no flatlining since I stopped using Inputmapper. Unplayable? No.

Your subjective experience in terms of bugs/glitches was not the point of the post, rather the exact opposite.

 

[Globerlober]

I think there's several reasons.

1) Covid
2) Marketing
3) Unrealistic time schedule
4) Lack of internal communication

-Covid has messed up half the world. When people can't meet and mingle, are forced to work from home and focus goes on all kinds of restrictions, productivity goes down. You need interaction with people to keep your head fresh. We can't expect people to code as efficiently and troubleshoot things if they don't interact. Teamwork is critical in a big project like this and we shouldn't underestimate that impact.

-Game got massively overhyped and partly due to marketing. We got celebrities, crazy good looking promo videos, feature creep, next gen immersion, highly successful TW3 as a "baseline" and all that. So even if the game would be "good and nice", the expectations fall flat. We were waiting for a revolutionary next generation ultimate gaming experience.

-Because of 1) & 2) devs needed a LOT of time. They didn't get that. The game had to be pushed out because reasons. Maybe there was investor pressure, maybe the management didn't understand the actual devs. Maybe they underestimated the system requirement for this ambitious project and had to start cutting down halfway through. Maybe they lacked actual skills to deliver on their promises. Who knows, but in the end it's apparent that the game would've needed months, if not a half a year in the oven for implementing a multitude of features now lacking and general optimization. I feel for you, console gamers.

-Lack of communication or simply disregarding what was communicated could've also played a big part. We can probably thank the covid again for that. I can easily imagine that as everything is shutting down, the investors are in a dire need of money and so put pressure for a release. Eight million preorders is a nice chunk of cash you know. Or the devs just sat home coding and didn't voice their concerns either out of lack of caring or fear that in these turbulent times their job might be on the line. Or the management simply didn't listen and wanted to stick to original schedule.

So, a multitude of factors at play. Still the game is good and just as I was writing this seems I downloaded the nice 9GB patch.

Been a week or so and the guys rolled nearly ten gigabytes of update material. I can't say CDPR wouldn't be working to fix this thing.

So we have basically a beta version at our hands and a more complete realization of the project will probably roll out after the 2nd February patch. I don't mind, really. Sure I feel a bit sad about the current state of the game but I really believe the updates will fix a lot of things.

In a way all this might be even good for CDPR in the long run. If CP2077 would've been all that was promised and then some, they might've gotten over their heads and the next big release would've been even more devastating. It's a good company in the sea of EA's and Activisons and this might be the reality check they need.

 

[Xaenz1]

Since you think so highly of research, you must have known already that Red Engine's main advantage is its ability to generate good open world visuals, interactable cutscenes, and branching questlines. I never criticized CDPR for not doing those things well - in fact I praise them for it, and in those areas they clearly know what they were doing.

My criticism is with the other absent elements of a believable modern open world. In those areas CDPR clearly does not know what they were doing.

As a sidenote, reading the original post carefully is always useful.

Your original post was and reads as criticism of CDPR.

Yes, the tech is all out there, but that doesn't mean CDPR knows it. When I said ambition I don't mean ambition compared to the modern industry standard, I mean ambition compared to what CDPR was capable of. Even if the tech is all out there, a studio still needs to learn to make use of those techs by years of experience, and CDPR attempted to do so without any.

And yet your opinion of other elements remains solely your opinion.

I find myself immersed in the world they created.

I believe they did a great job with those elements you find lacking.

As for your original post I disagreed with it as I do with this one.

Post automatically merged: Dec 20, 2020

Your subjective experience in terms of bugs/glitches was not the point of the post, rather the exact opposite.

I am not posting to give you affirmation of your post, I am stating it is totally relevant based upon my own experience of the game.

 

[IskrasFemme]

I think there's several reasons.

1) Covid
2) Marketing
3) Unrealistic time schedule
4) Lack of internal communication

-Covid has messed up half the world. When people can't meet and mingle, are forced to work from home and focus goes on all kinds of restrictions, productivity goes down. You need interaction with people to keep your head fresh. We can't expect people to code as efficiently and troubleshoot things if they don't interact. Teamwork is critical in a big project like this and we shouldn't underestimate that impact.

-Game got massively overhyped and partly due to marketing. We got celebrities, crazy good looking promo videos, feature creep, next gen immersion, highly successful TW3 as a "baseline" and all that. So even if the game would be "good and nice", the expectations fall flat. We were waiting for a revolutionary next generation ultimate gaming experience.

-Because of 1) & 2) devs needed a LOT of time. They didn't get that. The game had to be pushed out because reasons. Maybe there was investor pressure, maybe the management didn't understand the actual devs. Maybe they underestimated the system requirement for this ambitious project and had to start cutting down halfway through. Maybe they lacked actual skills to deliver on their promises. Who knows, but in the end it's apparent that the game would've needed months, if not a half a year in the oven for implementing a multitude of features now lacking and general optimization. I feel for you, console gamers.

-Lack of communication or simply disregarding what was communicated could've also played a big part. We can probably thank the covid again for that. I can easily imagine that as everything is shutting down, the investors are in a dire need of money and so put pressure for a release. Eight million preorders is a nice chunk of cash you know. Or the devs just sat home coding and didn't voice their concerns either out of lack of caring or fear that in these turbulent times their job might be on the line. Or the management simply didn't listen and wanted to stick to original schedule.

So, a multitude of factors at play. Still the game is good and just as I was writing this seems I downloaded the nice 9GB patch.

Been a week or so and the guys rolled nearly ten gigabytes of update material. I can't say CDPR wouldn't be working to fix this thing.

So we have basically a beta version at our hands and a more complete realization of the project will probably roll out after the 2nd February patch. I don't mind, really. Sure I feel a bit sad about the current state of the game but I really believe the updates will fix a lot of things.

In a way all this might be even good for CDPR in the long run. If CP2077 would've been all that was promised and then some, they might've gotten over their heads and the next big release would've been even more devastating. It's a good company in the sea of EA's and Activisons and this might be the reality check they need.

Perfect. Is what i think too.

 

[kissybyc3]

Downloading 1.05 patch so I decided to write on this string as a first post. First, let me tell you I am an old guy, 56 years old and have been playing RPGs of all types since 1978. I've been a GM for over 17 years, including a 11 year run on a single campaign group, and a huge Sci Fi consumer since I saw a movie called "Silent Running". Read all the greats, Asimov, Farmer, Tolkien, blah blah blah. I was a large fan of Michael Pondsmith, and his creation called CyberPunk since I read it fresh off presses in '88.

I played a 2+ years in Night City in my campaign. I had to make a world live through speech, communicating, along with the artwork style the world MP created. I will judge this differently than 99% of you. Glitches be damned, this game is Cyberpunk. I had a defining moment on a mission in the game. It made me reflect on a moral choice. I completed the storyline and and I felt it. Not through my fingers and eyes, but through a "who am I" lens no other game I've played in a digital world ever did.

For all the complaining about ambition, dev anger, CEO meddling, "game breakers", et al., this is CyberPunk. Not in a title, splash screen, pathing, glitches, but the FEEL is there. It feels non stop like Night City should. I dare anyone to get on the game past 12AM (in game time) and select your track on the radio, and just drive. Look at it all ! You can almost smell the fumes. You hear a random gun shot or a scream. You listen to the raw full throated roaring of a over powered muscle car. Then just stop get out close your eyes and listen. It is amazing.

I truly applaud what CDPR achieved. This city, in all it's pixelated glory, does truly breathe. If technical stuff is so obsessing your every thought. You are not playing a game, you are play testing. As I said, I grew up in a world of words, not pixels. This game, hands down will correct itself in a short while. CDPR is 100% more worried about is reputation than it's bottom line. This ain't EA or Ubisoft, it will redeem itself. Sometimes greatness stumbles, no one or thing is perfect, but the difference is CDPR will rise to the occasion. In a year, folks will see this run, we'll forget about it learning to crawl and walk at launch.

So for all the angsty people. Have you ever stumbled? Ever have a teacher drill you on a great paper over a few grammatical or punctuation? No one ever comes out walking, we simply enter this world totally dependent on others. We are the metaphorical extended family that must help this "child" mature and be all it can ever be. Less whine, more creative and useful critique.

To the Devs of CDPR, I have faith in you.

Signed
Tony "Rebel" Guttridge, Rockerboy, Lead Bassist and Vocalist of Metalhammer

I'm glad to see a veteran gamer like yourself enjoying the game. A consistent GM for over 17 years deserves my respect. Hats off to you.

I share your displeasure toward "angsty people" who know only how to "whine," but many people who have voiced our critique here are not that. I never said the game's art, visual design, or soundtrack were bad. Just like you, I find them to be incredible, and they do bring Night City "from words to pixel," as you said. If I wasn't clear in my original post, let me praise them clearly now.

However, I don't think success in one area ought to deflect criticism in another. The "technical issues" I mentioned - lack of crowd AI, police/wanted system, realistic NPC reactions etc. - are not just negligible details, but the industry standard of what should be in a believable modern open world since 10 years ago. CP2077's underwhelming performance in these areas is not like the few grammatical errors in an otherwise great paper - per your analogy - but more like using high school level methodology in a graduate level paper (despite a fascinating thesis). A good reader should call it out.

And no, CDPR is not the "child" that needs our tender caring and nurture to mature. They are a multi-billion dollar developer who, despite the disastrous launch of CP2077, still covered all their developing cost and made a profit from preorders alone. If anything those who bought the game on PS4/XB1 are the weaker party here. While we should offer constructive criticism and encourage them to make the game better, we are by no means obliged to approach them with parental kindness. My critique simply aims to hold a developer to their promises, and provide feedback on how they ought to do that, given the best of my knowledge.

 

[xxTotexx]

Gamer expectations harmed the game. Overhyping from a gamers perspective harmed the game. Personally I never have expectations nor follow the hype for any game, I form my own when playing the game. Personally I am enjoying Cyberpunk, have only seem one bug so far and Inputmapper caused flatlining (DS4), using native support (DS4) , haven't flatlined since.

Overhyping? No, everything everyone was excited for was mentioned in interviews or in trailers. Cyberpunk 2077 in CDPR's words is supposed to be "genre defining".

 

[glitr]

CP77 is the most beautiful game I've ever played

BUT
The story it shorter than I thought
a lot of quests are bugged and I can't finish them
After all the side quests that I can finish it really just feels empty

They're really the only thing this game needs to fix besides all the missing content

There's not much replay ability on one character,
If you play too much and craft too much/ collect too much your save file will corrupt, and from what I've heard that is by design because of the limitation on the engine,
They will probably fix it but if they do not it's basically a story game.
That's fine, but a legendary RPG needs more than just a captivating story

 

[IskrasFemme]

CP77 is the most beautiful game I've ever played

BUT
The story it shorter than I thought
a lot of quests are bugged and I can't finish them
After all the side quests that I can finish it really just feels empty

They're really the only thing this game needs to fix besides all the missing content

There's not much replay ability on one character,
If you play too much and craft too much/ collect too much your save file will corrupt, and from what I've heard that is by design because of the limitation on the engine,
They will probably fix it but if they do not it's basically a story game.
That's fine, but a legendary RPG needs more than just a captivating story

I read about a design decision, side quests. I confess that I was very sad about what I read, about the non-existence of procedural, or random, quests. I, in particular, think that they are necessary, even more in Cyberpunk, a vast world.

I'm sad about that. I, days ago, had opened an application (topic) for CDPR, change that, rethink about. It is in suggestions, I would like to have support, if they agree, respecting, of course, all the decisions taken by the CD.

 

[PrincessAmanda]

Night City open world features that made into the final game : " it looks good " and " districts are different ".

I wont spoil anything but I have found secluded location where two girls are talking about ordinary life. When they were done talking - I thought, well that was interesting, funny and well acted, but why this isn't a quest ? Why I can't inreract with them ?

Than I realized that NPC's in this game are just background, no different than concrete building or song from radio station.
I was close to crying when I realized that it's everywhere like that. Night City is noise and Badlands is sand... that's about it.

Game is fun, but it looks to me that open world elements needed at least one more entire year of developement.. sorry someone is calling me.... HEY V !!!! REGINA JONES HERE !!!!!, blabadeeeboo badeeba bee booo dah , details attached.

 

[KentGAllard]

people used to be okay with Fallout New Vegas having a (frankly) criminal time to release

Chris Avellone, one of the game's senior designers, begs to disagree on that one. In his opinion FNV had more than enough time and would be even better if the management wasn't busy "chasing shiny things". Not to mention that Obsidian knew full well how much time they would have before taking on the project.

Amazing how it always boils down to management.

 

[Vortigernrex]

What do you mean something wrong happened two years ago? What happened?

I remember they were hacked and their designs were leaked, but they said those designs had all been tossed out anyway by then. Also had a shift in their design lead shortly thereafter. On another thread in the forum (sorry can't find the link now) someone posted a writeup by an ex-employee who described how actual production only really got going in early 2019, with all the constant changes and issues.

 

[glitr]

HEY V !!!! REGINA JONES HERE !!!!!, blabadeeeboo badeeba bee booo dah , details attached.

I'm so happy they did all the recordings for her, but I'd like to be able to mute them when I wanna roam in peace lol

 

[Xaenz1]

Overhyping? No, everything everyone was excited for was mentioned in interviews or in trailers. Cyberpunk 2077 in CDPR's words is supposed to be "genre defining".

Skyrim was meant to be genre defining, instead you need to mod it to make it playable and enjoyable.

Gamers didn't overhype? of course they did.

Gamers didn't push for release, complained of delays? of course they did.

Gamers who didn't even buy the game are criticising it but feel entitled to believe they can.

Do what I do - don't read or watch reviews, form your own opinion of a game, never expect and always ignore the hype.

In my opinion it is a great game, not perfect but still a great game.

 

[AlphaVilkis]

In my opinion, Ambition can never harm a creator. As long as it is backed up by dedication and mostly desire. The dev team has certainly worked their heads above humanly possible already to bring the game out based on the set in the stone release window.

No one in their right mind is denying the fact that the game wasn't finished. And still, I have 100 hours in beside the buggy and featureless mess the game is. I am clearly enjoying this experience more than I thought I would in my first 20 hours.

However, the possibilities and my desire to play are getting exhausted. And with the lack of transparency and news regarding features, even if we know they are focused on fixing bugs and making the game stable, with no roadmap on features to be added, I don't see a bright future for the game itself.

I remain hopeful.

 

[Vyper65]

I would have waited until they actually got it right .... I just want to know why they didn't try a Beta Test Run First. Oh I know the Corporation got Greedy

 

[Gillian_Seed]

I am not posting to give you affirmation of your post, I am stating it is totally relevant based upon my own experience of the game.

That's perfectly fair play and valid. My train of thought was on a different set of tracks and I was thinking along the lines of a broader experience and how people are looking at the game beyond the initial bugs/glitches impression which were/are so bad for many that I believe it caused people to look for and overvalue the good or even not entirely broken in contrast.

I was also looking into the future based on how the broader conversation seems to be flowing now as to how I believe people will see the game more and more in a general sense as the dust settles and in doing so got stuck in my own thoughts as to how they relate to the topic. I assumed you were speaking in terms of what I was talking about in my post and I apologize for that.