Did the game change?

[Mobster100]

(Just so people know where this comes from, it's from another post, but moved it to a seperate post to not interfere with the other post topic as requested by Rawls)

Ping: @Rawls

Quick overview
This was based on an interview and the first gameplay trailer and what is said in them. These can be found below:

Interview:

Gameplay trailer:

This is a recap from the other post, so people know what im talking about, I also strongly encourage people to watch the interview before replying, so you can make up your own mind and whether you get a similar impression as me or not.:

But I think there is more to it, the interview is excellent, but if you listen to what Joe ask them around 7.25 until 9.35 which both of them confirms.
They give an example that you could just walk off with the money without ever seeing the scene with the Maelstroms, he even repeat it several times that it is completely optional? Im not sure, if that is possible in the game if I remember right, because isn't it part of the main quest? So if I understand it correctly, it was possible at the time of the interview, but got cut?

Everything said after that in those 2 minutes, were that possible at the moment of the interview? because that sounds like a completely different game they are talking about.

if you hear the whole interview, so many things they are saying, seems to not match what is in the game at all. Maybe they are overselling it, but honestly it sound like they played a different game, which at the point had all these possibilities?

Im not trying to be critical here, but it really does.

------------------------

Rawls said:
I think you can still walk away. If I recall correctly you strip the malware off the chip before giving it to Royce and then just pay the 50K and leave. Or you can jut pay with your own money. See around 11:00 here -

I think you can do that, but you can't completely avoid this, you still have to go through the Maelstroms. And it's very clear that Mike Pondsmith also believes this, not pointing fingers at him at all, because he clearly state at the end that he have not played the demo. But during the interview he gives an example of someone saying to a friend "You never met Royce in your playthrough?". So one can only assume that CDPR allowing him to speak on the behalf of CP77 "the computer game" and what is possible and not possible here, have instructed him in regards to features to be found in it.
Exactly to prevent him from saying stuff or sharing features that is not true or possible, because let's be honest, this might sound like a minor detail, but for people that puts "choice matters" above anything else in RPGs, this is what gets our attention.
So when you as a player watches this, you really get the impression that most of this mission is optional, and should you choose to simply steal the militech money and never meet Royce, the game can handle it, even Joe reacts with excitement, clearly understanding it as this truly giving you a lot of options in regards to story.

But let's be honest, had they shown almost any other mission, except the voodoo one, which was the second one they showed off when talking about the story, with the same information about how complexed the storylines in CP was, it would be very difficult for them to make this work, because CP is very linear, even in these missions as they all lead to the same conclusion.

However this mission is very good and you can solve it in many different ways, but it does not represent the average mission or gameplay in regards to "choice matters" in this game by any stretch.

They also make references to how awesome it is in the TW3 that people discover hidden things and options so many years after release, as if that is what to expect in CP as well. Either these people (mostly the CDPR guy) oversold it or this was the intention at the time that CP should be like TW3 but more complexed as I see it. Because I doubt, anyone will discover a secret mission or outcome to one of them years from now, unless CDPR adds a lot of story and mission content.

 

[Rawls]

All games change during the course of development. So of course some things changed. It's why some AAA developers (looking at you Rockstar) show like two trailers before launch window and nothing else. However, I think the heart of what they're talking about is still there.

I think you always had to go through Maelstrom in the game and Mike (who said he hasn't played it) was wrong. Mike is in the interview as the lore representative. Kyle Rowley was the CDPR dev. Most of what they are describing seems like the game I played and loved.

I think the endings definitely have more variability than the Maelstrom mission. I mean, depending on the path you choose, you have three completely different missions.

Regarding narrative linearity within most other quests, it is definitely linear within quests more frequently than I would have preferred as far as story is concerned. I actually think the non-linearity is quite good when it comes to level design (multiple ways to approach most encounters), but the stories within quest are more on-rails than I anticipated. I would say of all the critiques of the game, this is probably the one that rings most true to me.

However, I do very much think choice still matters very much in the game though, both within some quests, in the ultimate endings, and in how V's personality is shaped for the player.

 

[Puhctek]

Doubt we'll ever get an "official" story as to why the game they're discussing in the interview appears to differ so much from the one we got. My impression is CDPR had completed most of Act 1 with the branching story and quests by 2018 and were intending the rest of the game to be similar. This timeline would match with the interviews, but also Evelyn gives V the option to cut out Dex, which seems to be setting up even more branches. Then, between these interviews and release, the rest of the game was reworked to be much more linear.

There are plenty of reasons why. It could have been apparent that they wouldn't get a branching game finished for another decade. They could have got Keanu on board and wanted his role to expand tremendously. They could have simply not been capable of writing or coding a branching game (because it's really, really hard to code an engine, build an open world, and also write a complex branching story with incredible atmosphere and characters - there's a reason Rockstar games are even more linear).

I'll just say this, because I'm an old man in internet years, don't put too much stock in game developers words before you can actually download and play the game. They're generally not trained in PR and get excited to talk about projects they're working on, and sometimes those projects don't turn out like they hoped. Doesn't mean they were lying, or promising things they didn't intend to do, changes just happen sometimes.

 

[Trykz]

I kept the 20,000 credchip from Merideth.

It sold for 3 eddys after I hacked it

 

[Mobster100]

I think you always had to go through Maelstrom in the game and Mike (who said he hasn't played it) was wrong. Mike is in the interview as the lore representative. Kyle Rowley was the CDPR dev. Most of what they are describing seems like the game I played and loved.

Kyle Rowley say that it is completely optional to do that mission. The issue as I see it, is not so much that this particular mission got non optional if that is the case. The problem is that from what they say, like the overall tone or how missions works, is that choices matters and that these for the main part are completely optional and that one playthrough will be very different from another one based on these choices.

It's like me making a game and you interviewing me and ask "How do you get to missions?" to which I answer, "That is completely up to you, you can drive, fly, sail, walk even take a balloon there if you want. That will be left completely up to the players." Then you try the game and only for this one specific mission I was talking about, you could choose these ways of transportation, all others you can only walk to.

Then what I told you, doesn't represent how the game works. Then I should have said, "In this mission you can choose a lot of different transportations, but for the most part you will just walk."

Clearly the last description is a more accurate representation of the game. Whereas the first description would make you think that you have all these options available to you of how you could go to missions.

I loved the mission as well, but I don't really think that is what is important here, but rather, if you play the game again, do you think the experience and excitement from your choices matches what they are saying in the interview?

I think the endings definitely have more variability than the Maelstrom mission. I mean, depending on the path you choose, you have three completely different missions.

I agree, but the game is basically over at this point And the journey you went on to get to it, is pretty much identical to your first playthrough. It's not like you can tell me an amazingly unique story of how you ended up the way you did, and ask me if I ever "met Royce?", because I had no option not too

You can't tell me, you sided with the Maelstroms gang over one of the others, the only thing you can say is, I didn't finish the Panam questline or something like that. Eventually we will both end up at that restaurant or what it is. But that is not the impression you get from what they are saying, because clearly had you stolen the money from Militech and never met the Maelstroms, that could potentially change everything, as you now screwed over Militech and you didn't get the bot for Dexter either.

Regarding narrative linearity within most other quests, it is definitely linear within quests more frequently than I would have preferred as far as story is concerned. I actually think the non-linearity is quite good when it comes to level design (multiple ways to approach most encounters)

I love how you can approach missions, especially because all locations are unique, combat it self, especially late game and some of the tools you have is another story. But the idea is awesome, but sadly that isn't shared with how quests works. And the illusion of choice matters is there the first time you play it, as long as you don't reload and try another option, because the acting and storytelling is really good and will make you invested in the illusion.

However, I do very much think choice still matters very much in the game though, both within some quests, in the ultimate endings, and in how V's personality is shaped for the player.

Have you tried to test one of the choices that you believe is going to have a huge impact in the game and just go through all the options and see how they turn out?

For almost all of them they will end up in the exact same, you might have a different dialog, cutscene etc. but eventually you end the same place having to do it anyway.

Post automatically merged: Dec 31, 2020

They could have simply not been capable of writing or coding a branching game (because it's really, really hard to code an engine, build an open world, and also write a complex branching story with incredible atmosphere and characters - there's a reason Rockstar games are even more linear).

I would assume that this is very difficult, especially if you want a main story as well with some clear goals. But if the main quest had just said, "Find a way to solve the Silverhand problem." then they could have branched it all kinds of ways. Because nothing tells you that now you have to go here, then here etc. But instead some missions might give you clues to what you could do, which could then lead you to different NPCs, computers, locations, involve different companions etc.

But if you have to be guided every step of the way in a specific order, without having to piece things together on your own, then it won't work, because it's almost impossible to make it non linear with lots of different outcomes.

 

[Rawls]

Kyle Rowley say that it is completely optional to do that mission.

I think you're misunderstanding what he means if your talking about around 8 minutes in. He means the entire combat encounter that Joe just watched is optional (which it is if you just pay Royce with regular money).

 

[Mobster100]

I think you're misunderstanding what he means if your talking about around 8 minutes in. He means the entire combat encounter that Joe just watched is optional (which it is if you just pay Royce with regular money).

That could very well be what he refers to. But it's not what Mike say right afterwards, which might be what causes the confusion, especially since Kyle doesn't correct him if this is not true.

Had he interrupted in a friendly tone and said "It's not as open as that and players will meet Royce." It would have made it a lot more clear in my eyes. And obviously it's not easy in the middle of an interview to catch all things, but then they could have corrected it later on at least. But as we know they push this in the next trailer as well, where they talk about choices, where they show the voodoo boy mission and again point out how complex this whole story is and how all choices have consequences and changes the story, when it really doesn't.

 

[Bloodartist]

They give an example that you could just walk off with the money without ever seeing the scene with the Maelstroms, he even repeat it several times that it is completely optional? Im not sure, if that is possible in the game if I remember right, because isn't it part of the main quest? So if I understand it correctly, it was possible at the time of the interview, but got cut?

I think they mean that you can ignore Stout's request and keep the money that SHE gave you (of course you need to hack the chip to do so). They aren't talking about Dexters money.

 

[Mobster100]

I think they mean that you can ignore Stout's request and keep the money that SHE gave you (of course you need to hack the chip to do so). They aren't talking about Dexters money.

It have never been about Dexters money, you are never given any from him at all as he have already paid the Maelstroms. It's about whether you can simply take the militech money and run off and never go to see the Maelstroms.

 

[Hexipoo]

You can hack the chip and get the malware out, then you have to fight Militech instead.

 

[vahouth]

I kept the 20,000 credchip from Merideth.

It sold for 3 eddys after I hacked it

I gave it to Royce, and after the mess and killing him on the centaur, I got the chip back, hacked it and got 10k.
And Meredith is waiting for me in the motel.

 

[onurceyhan]

This game has nothing to do with the game shown to us in the 48-minute gameplay. I guess the company had to deprive the game of RPG elements as it could not raise Keanu Reeves' money. Because there is a VERY BIG difference between what is wanted and what is done. Look, I've enjoyed this game. But I thought this game would revolutionize the gaming industry as they did in The Witcher 3 and The Witcher 2. Because CDPR has done this more than once in the past. I thought they could do it in this game too. But they advertised with Keanu Reeves and calculated that this game could sell more, which ultimately disappointed us greatly. In terms of RPG, it is not much different from the Witcher, only combat mechanics are different. Of course, there have been improvements in some aspects, but there is no improvement in the RPG that is the factor. I wish you had made Johnny Silverhand as the main character and you would not be fooling people by saying "you will play your own character." Because in Witcher we were playing Geralt, not our own character. There was no promise to play our own character, so the system there made sense.

If CDPR hadn't released Cyberpunk 2077 with bugs or optimization problems, you would hear more of the criticism on these issues.

Briefly,
The game is good.
RPG? Yes, compared to the Witcher.
Is this RPG suitable for a game where we create our own character? No way.

 

[animalfather]

When Keanu was brought on it was changed. Ya a lot of descoping happened in 2019. My opinion is that the descoping happened and Keanu was brought on to kinda hide the fact that it happened. Look at 2018, it definitely did not have a mainstory about johnny silverhand being in our heads the entire time nagging us to death.

 

[Hexipoo]

View attachment 11122010When Keanu was brought on it was changed. Ya a lot of descoping happened in 2019. My opinion is that the descoping happened and Keanu was brought on to kinda hide the fact that it happened. Look at 2018, it definitely did not have a mainstory about johnny silverhand being in our heads the entire time nagging us to death.

It's obvious from the earlier trailers and interviews that the entire story and direction of the game changed. You can still find bits and pieces of the old game if you look hard enough.

 

[Mobster100]

This game has nothing to do with the game shown to us in the 48-minute gameplay. I guess the company had to deprive the game of RPG elements as it could not raise Keanu Reeves' money. Because there is a VERY BIG difference between what is wanted and what is done. Look, I've enjoyed this game. But I thought this game would revolutionize the gaming industry as they did in The Witcher 3 and The Witcher 2. Because CDPR has done this more than once in the past. I thought they could do it in this game too. But they advertised with Keanu Reeves and calculated that this game could sell more, which ultimately disappointed us greatly. In terms of RPG, it is not much different from the Witcher, only combat mechanics are different. Of course, there have been improvements in some aspects, but there is no improvement in the RPG that is the factor. I wish you had made Johnny Silverhand as the main character and you would not be fooling people by saying "you will play your own character." Because in Witcher we were playing Geralt, not our own character. There was no promise to play our own character, so the system there made sense.

If CDPR hadn't released Cyberpunk 2077 with bugs or optimization problems, you would hear more of the criticism on these issues.

Briefly,
The game is good.
RPG? Yes, compared to the Witcher.
Is this RPG suitable for a game where we create our own character? No way.

I think they could have done it and actual think that was the original plan.

If you take the Dexter mission just as an example, it could have been done like this:

So you have a meeting with Dexter and Evelyn about stealing this chip, but in order to do this you need a way to get passed the security, which will require some high tech militech stuff. Dexter and Evelyn doesn't know where to get it and doesn't care how you get it done, that is why they hired you.

T-bug might say that such technology or information about it could be in one of the Militech facilities, so maybe breaking into one of them could help. Jackie might know a geeky person really into all this tech stuff, which is hanging out at bar. You might hear in the news, that a Militech convention is going on and they have interviewed one of the leading Militech researchers outside his hotel. You might overhear some people or rumor from a barkeeper, how one of the gangs hit a Militech transporter and stole some high tech stuff, which could lead you to trying to figure out which gang it was, which eventually could lead to the Maelstroms.

So just by rearranging the mission goal you can create a much more dynamic mission structure, because now you have four different ways of getting the same informations about this tech you need to steal. Each which could be solved completely differently, but in the end, it will be the same, that you get the Robot for Dex and Evelyn so you can do the heist. But obviously depending on which option you take, it could greatly affect how the rest of the game played out, if screw over the Maelstroms, they might come after you. You breaking into the Militech facility or threaten one of their employers might piss them off. Jackie's solution, could result in you having to do something for this guy first, that will piss off another gang.

The problem is that the game doesn't really work with reputation or give you the option of figuring out things on your own, you have to follow the main quest in a linear way.

 

[MojoBreaker]

This game has nothing to do with the game shown to us in the 48-minute gameplay. I guess the company had to deprive the game of RPG elements as it could not raise Keanu Reeves' money. Because there is a VERY BIG difference between what is wanted and what is done. Look, I've enjoyed this game. But I thought this game would revolutionize the gaming industry as they did in The Witcher 3 and The Witcher 2. Because CDPR has done this more than once in the past. I thought they could do it in this game too. But they advertised with Keanu Reeves and calculated that this game could sell more, which ultimately disappointed us greatly. In terms of RPG, it is not much different from the Witcher, only combat mechanics are different. Of course, there have been improvements in some aspects, but there is no improvement in the RPG that is the factor. I wish you had made Johnny Silverhand as the main character and you would not be fooling people by saying "you will play your own character." Because in Witcher we were playing Geralt, not our own character. There was no promise to play our own character, so the system there made sense.

If CDPR hadn't released Cyberpunk 2077 with bugs or optimization problems, you would hear more of the criticism on these issues.

Briefly,
The game is good.
RPG? Yes, compared to the Witcher.
Is this RPG suitable for a game where we create our own character? No way.

yes i agree, bugs for consoles overshadows real problems with game.

 

[xlawx]

When Keanu was brought on it was changed. Ya a lot of descoping happened in 2019. My opinion is that the descoping happened and Keanu was brought on to kinda hide the fact that it happened. Look at 2018, it definitely did not have a mainstory about johnny silverhand being in our heads the entire time nagging us to death.

Before Keanu, the Devs already said its based on Cyberpunk novels written by Mike Pondsmith. I did a research before Keanu's announce, Johnny Silverhand belongs to the key-role or a must big name.
You posted the picture from 2018 - Backstory Childhood hero "Johnny Silverhand". However, Keanu did the job in 2018, the story writing should be done before you hire a celebrity.

Although, we dont know. The Devs said, originally planned was 50 - 70 hours main story and then it was reduced to 20 -30 hours because of player's feebdback.

 

[Bloodartist]

You can hack the chip and get the malware out, then you have to fight Militech instead.

Considering that Stout is a one-mission pony, I will definitely go for that route next playthrough since there is like, no penalty for pissing her off. I expected to get more work from Stout...