Did Witcher 3 *REALLY* Have Good Choices & Consequences?

[dragonbird]

I think there was sufficient info on the Tree Spirit quest to make an informed judgement, even without having read the in-game books. You knew the views of the villagers, there were corpses of villagers, including children, on the hillock. On the other hand you knew that the Ladies were, at best, dubious, that the numbers didn't add up (not enough living children with Gran) and you had the Tree Spirit's own argument. I thought it was enough.

Regarding "imagining the outcome" - in TW2, I don't think that anyone could have imagined the outcome regarding the Roche/Iorveth choice. Especially that

Spoiler

It's the ROCHE choice that can result in Henselt's death, not the IORVETH choice

I've read an awful lot of forum posts by people who say that they could NEVER pick the [Roche/Iorveth] option because they expect it to mean [Supporting Henselt/Supporting Terrorists], neither of which bears any resemblence to the actual outcome.

And in TW1, the very first Choice - is there anything in the game that will indicate that

Spoiler

your choice will result in Leo's death? OK, I know it actually doesn't make any difference, but Geralt believes throughout the game that Leo died because of that choice, and the player is led to believe the same.

No, I still prefer it without the hand-holding. The only thing I require is that when you DO find out the consequence, you can see how it got from Choice to Consequence.

Which means that the only one I still feel strongly about as "wrong" is

Spoiler

Trashing the lab as a pro-Ciri act

---------- Updated at 09:09 AM ----------

My two pence. I don't like C&Cs where the player can never possibly imagine the outcome. IMO, that's borderline a Deus Ex Machina type situation - where a conflict has a resolution that wasn't previously mentioned in the story.

IMO, the biggest Deus Ex Machina in the game is still the Nilfgaard invasion at the end of TW2. Closely followed by Triss teleporting Geralt out of danger at the ends of Acts 2 and 3 in TW1.

 

[Phinnway]

I think there was sufficient info on the Tree Spirit quest to make an informed judgement, even without having read the in-game books. You knew the views of the villagers, there were corpses of villagers, including children, on the hillock. On the other hand you knew that the Ladies were, at best, dubious, that the numbers didn't add up (not enough living children with Gran) and you had the Tree Spirit's own argument. I thought it was enough.

Yep. And then it whips around and tells you Gran is really Anna Strenger. Something you had NO. !@#$ING. CLUE. was going to happen. Especially since the game deliberately misdirects you by giving you a false description of Anna's appearance.

Anna was a comely forty-something woman with green eyes and hair dark as raven wings which she kept tied in a tight bun behind her head.

Turns out she has been warped by magic and now looks nothing like that. Oops. :crazy:

Regarding "imagining the outcome" - in TW2, I don't think that anyone could have imagined the outcome regarding the Roche/Iorveth choice. Especially that

Spoiler

It's the ROCHE choice that can result in Henselt's death, not the IORVETH choice

I've read an awful lot of forum posts by people who say that they could NEVER pick the [Roche/Iorveth] option because they expect it to mean [Supporting Henselt/Supporting Terrorists], neither of which bears any resemblence to the actual outcome.

I was referring more to the short-term consequence tof hat choice in the village of Flotsam. Specifically, the non-human pomgrom, and burning the Elven maidens alive. Both are perfectly plausible scenarios based on what you know of Lorido at that time.

You are right there's no way predict the long term consequences. In TW2, there's no way of knowing the long-term consequences of ANY choice. That's because, at the end of every act, you're whisked you away to new location with new characters you didn't even know existed.

If I had been a member of these forums when TW2 came out I would've nitpicked it to death (read - graphics downgrade levels of rage). But this thread is about TW3.

No, I still prefer it without the hand-holding. The only thing I require is that when you DO find out the consequence, you can see how it got from Choice to Consequence.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. When playing video-games, I prefer to be an active participant in the story rather than a passive observer watching from the sidelines.

 

[dragonbird]

Yep. And then it whips around and tells you Gran is really Anna Strenger. Something you had NO. !@#$ING. CLUE. was going to happen. Especially since the game deliberately misdirects you by giving you a false description of Anna's appearance.

Actually... I've never checked it out fully, but I think that the poster in this shot is her, and a lot more current than the painting:

 

[Phinnway]

^^ I have no idea. I pulled that description from the wiki. But IIRC it's the description the Barron gives you.

There's also these two pictures of her before she turns old. But I can't remember when they appears in your journal.

 

[Garrison72]

We never get to see Anna before she basically sells her soul, so I'm fine with how she looks. The other issues DB brings up, comparing what are basically plot elements in TW1 and TW2 to the ending of a trilogy, not fine with that.

 

[dragonbird]

^^ I have no idea. I pulled that description from the wiki. But IIRC it's the description the Barron gives you.

There's also these two pictures of her before she turns old. But I can't remember when they appears in your journal.

The image on the right is of Queen Dowager Birna. The one on the left is Annabelle, from the Tower of Mice.

---------- Updated at 11:24 AM ----------

We never get to see Anna before she basically sells her soul, so I'm fine with how she looks. The other issues DB brings up, comparing what are basically plot elements in TW1 and TW2 to the ending of a trilogy, not fine with that.

Can you explain?

 

[Garrison72]

The image on the right is of Queen Dowager Birna. The one on the left is Annabelle, from the Tower of Mice.

---------- Updated at 11:24 AM ----------



Can you explain?

Nilfgaard invading, we knew that was coming, from Flotsam on. That wasn't out of the blue. Triss teleporting Geralt, ok, a bit convenient. but not the end of anything. It was part of an ongoing plot. Ending that way would have been much worse.

 

[Phinnway]

I didn't mean that it was a literal deus ex machina. I merely meant that, on principle, having a choice with completely unpredictable consequences is comparable to a deus ex machina (e.g. it's a really cheap plot device).

 

[dragonbird]

I didn't mean that it was a literal deus ex machina. I merely meant that, on principle, having a choice with completely unpredictable consequences is comparable to a deus ex machina (e.g. it's a really cheap plot device).

OK. Understood
(And naw, gonna disagree there. I hate Deus Ex Machina devices with a passion.)

---------- Updated at 06:59 PM ----------

Nilfgaard invading, we knew that was coming, from Flotsam on. That wasn't out of the blue. Triss teleporting Geralt, ok, a bit convenient. but not the end of anything. It was part of an ongoing plot. Ending that way would have been much worse.

OK. Understanding now.

 

[ilayoeli]

I think there was sufficient info on the Tree Spirit quest to make an informed judgement, even without having read the in-game books. You knew the views of the villagers, there were corpses of villagers, including children, on the hillock. On the other hand you knew that the Ladies were, at best, dubious, that the numbers didn't add up (not enough living children with Gran) and you had the Tree Spirit's own argument. I thought it was enough.

I don't really care for the following outcome rather than the actual premise of a choice: the Tree Spirit choice is between to ancient evils who aren't different in any way that you can indicate or care about.
It's basically to choose between a horse-evil and an elderly-women-evil.

Now compare it to choices in TW2 when the two choices in mind actually mean something and stand for different values.

 

[Sephira]

Yep. And then it whips around and tells you Gran is really Anna Strenger. Something you had NO. !@#$ING. CLUE. was going to happen. Especially since the game deliberately misdirects you by giving you a false description of Anna's appearance.

Actually people who witnessed the kidnapping tell Geralt Anna had some mark on her hands, then you see Grandma with the Ladies and you notice the marks on her hands, long before the game tells you clearly she is Anna. You, as the player, can undestand it from that point on.

 

[Guest 2812644]

Did Witcher 3 really have good choices & consequences? Early on I took Dragonbird's (?) advice about how Geralt would react since I have not read the books. Basically the following works for me: Save the world, save your family, help your friend, keep your word, save your self, destroy evil, and the rest that happen to be in the way will be sorted out by God. I think CDPR did a good job ( have not seen any other RPG come as close). Hardest choice involved Yen or Triss.

 

[Rawls]

It's difficult to quantify good. By good do we mean best ever? Top 10 games with C&C? Better than average? What's the standard that defines "good" or "bad."

Did I think it was good? For the most part, yes, I thought it was good in the sense that I was largely satisfied by several of the consequences - (1) Family Matters & Ladies of the Woods; (2) how various side quest content affected who was present at the Battle of Kaer Morhen; (3) Yen & Triss content; (4) Madman Lugos quest line (Phantom of Eldberg, Stranger in a Strange Land, Cave of Dreams and whatever the one with the prisoner is called); (5) Hearts of Stone choices & consequences; (6) All of the various monster quests and how they later affect Skellige's Most Wanted. There are also a bunch of immediate choices with short term unforeseen or otherwise difficult consequences in (1) Wild at Heart; (2) Towerful of Mice; (3) Possession; (4) Carnal Sins. So overall I thought it was good in that it was better than the average game I have played.

Did I think it was the best I've ever seen in gaming? No. C&C is one of the very few areas where I actually like Dragon Age: Inquisition better than TW3. And that's not saying the way they did it was perfect either, but I imagine that creating scripts with all these multiple outcomes is incredibly difficult for Bioware. And for all DA:I's faults in other areas, that is one place where I walked away from that game impressed.

So my mind wasn't blown by TW3 C&C or anything, but yes I would say it was "good."

 

[RepHope]

It's difficult to quantify good. By good do we mean best ever? Top 10 games with C&C? Better than average? What's the standard that defines "good" or "bad."

Did I think it was good? For the most part, yes, I thought it was good in the sense that I was largely satisfied by several of the consequences - (1) Family Matters & Ladies of the Woods; (2) how various side quest content affected who was present at the Battle of Kaer Morhen; (3) Yen & Triss content; (4) Madman Lugos quest line (Phantom of Eldberg, Stranger in a Strange Land, Cave of Dreams and whatever the one with the prisoner is called); (5) Hearts of Stone choices & consequences; (6) All of the various monster quests and how they later affect Skellige's Most Wanted. There are also a bunch of immediate choices with short term unforeseen or otherwise difficult consequences in (1) Wild at Heart; (2) Towerful of Mice; (3) Possession; (4) Carnal Sins. So overall I thought it was good in that it was better than the average game I have played.

Did I think it was the best I've ever seen in gaming? No. C&C is one of the very few areas where I actually like Dragon Age: Inquisition better than TW3. And that's not saying the way they did it was perfect either, but I imagine that creating scripts with all these multiple outcomes is incredibly difficult for Bioware. And for all DA:I's faults in other areas, that is one place where I walked away from that game impressed.

So my mind wasn't blown by TW3 C&C or anything, but yes I would say it was "good."

Really? Interesting. I can not for the life of me remember a single choice in DAI actually mattering. Everything was clear black and white choices, and most of them had no long-term effects whatsoever. Then in Trespasser everyone ends up with the same world state in the end.

 

[Beas7ie]

I gotta disagree about both Bloody Baron AND the Skellige questline, or at least what you said about Svanridge being the best ruler

We get immediate closure with the Bloody Baron. If you dont kill the tree then he kills himself and if you do then he takes his wife and leaves. Tamara is sent away on witch hunter business under what seems to be the only commander who isn't a complete asshole.

There is also a chance that Bloody Baron might return in B&W, well he was in the trailer though I think the scene showed was Geralt fighting him in front of the burning barn at Crows Perch or whatever his fort like thing was called so he might not be in it. Either way it left enough for me to be somewhat satisfied, unlike CDPRs decision to leave Lorveth out of the game entirely.

As for Svanridge I don't think he's the best leader for Skellige. Yes he unites the clans, but the ending clearly states that his rule is bloody since he's doing an all out war with Nilfgard vs Cerys who works for peace and Hjalmar who just continues the same old raids. The Skelligers may think its awesome to have a "badass ruler" whos all about burning women and raping churches at first, but in the long run Nilfgaard could wipe out Skellige and it clearly states that there is a LOT of bloodshed even if Skellige isn't destroyed.

Personally, I think Cerys is the best choice as she shows that she can be a calm and levelheaded ruler who won't just ax envoys at the drop of a hat and her rule will improve Skellige in the long run.

As for the choices, they weren't perfect but I find them to be a lot better compared to other games like the infamous Choose your color explosion at the end of ME3 or the Telltale games series in which everyone usually ends up dying no matter what you do. (IM LOOKING AT YOU GAME OF THRONES, and no don't say "That's the theme cause it,s not. GRRM himself clearly states his reasons for why he kills off his characters and most of the main deaths (Ned, Rob, Oberyn) were killed because they were dumbasses whereas the show is just like KILL THEM ALL! but I'm greatly digressing and this is not the place for this and I apologize for any inconvenience this causes) So yeah I think Witcher 3 handled the various choices and consequences fairly well. It's not perfect of course, but compared to most other games choices, I'll pick the W3 ones anyday.

 

[Rawls]

Really? Interesting. I can not for the life of me remember a single choice in DAI actually mattering. Everything was clear black and white choices, and most of them had no long-term effects whatsoever. Then in Trespasser everyone ends up with the same world state in the end.

A ton of the choices affected the story.

Spoiler

Who is in the inquisition? Do the Mages or Templar's become the bad guys? Who is Divine Victoria at the end? Does the inquisition still exist? Does the circle of Magi still exist? Do the Templar's still exist? Who is the ruler of Orlais? And each character has a specific line of quests that determines their general outlook on things. Iron Bull turns against you in Trespasser if you don't save the chargers in his quest. Several of these choices affect options at later point in the story, completely barring off alternate paths. I will agree it doesn't affect the general path of the story (Inquisitor leads the Inquisition, and defeats Corephius), but come on that is a lot of consequences entirely dependent on player choice

 

[RepHope]

A ton of the choices affected the story.

Spoiler

Who is in the inquisition? Do the Mages or Templar's become the bad guys? Who is Divine Victoria at the end? Does the inquisition still exist? Does the circle of Magi still exist? Do the Templar's still exist? Who is the ruler of Orlais? And each character has a specific line of quests that determines their general outlook on things. Iron Bull turns against you in Trespasser if you don't save the chargers in his quest. Several of these choices affect options at later point in the story, completely barring off alternate paths. I will agree it doesn't affect the general path of the story (Inquisitor leads the Inquisition, and defeats Corephius), but come on that is a lot of consequences entirely dependent on player choice

No they don't. It is impossible to lose, you always beat Cory at every turn. With W3 you can lose in the end, with Geralt and Ciri dying. Hell W3 is pretty much equal or better if seeing a slide is what makes a great choice for you, since W3 has more of them. There's the Baron, the plight of the Novigrad mages vs. what happens to nonhumans if you help them, Keira's questline which has multiple outcomes, who rules Skellige, the fate of Whoreson Jr. and Dudu, who rules the North, the fates of Ciri and Geralt, tons of smaller side quests like the leshen contract, the curse on the cheating husband in Skellige, etc, etc.

And none of DAI's choices matter because even with Viv as Divine, the "Bright Hand" or whatever it's called gets formed, even when I supported putting mages back in Circles the whole game, Orlais doesn't fall apart, the elves go support Solas, etc, etc.

 

[Holgaroni]

No they don't. It is impossible to lose, you always beat Cory at every turn. With W3 you can lose in the end, with Geralt and Ciri dying.

Spoiler

Even Lambert can die if Keira and Letho aren't at Kaer Morhen with you when the WH attacks

 

[Rawls]

No they don't. It is impossible to lose, you always beat Cory at every turn. With W3 you can lose in the end, with Geralt and Ciri dying. Hell W3 is pretty much equal or better if seeing a slide is what makes a great choice for you, since W3 has more of them. There's the Baron, the plight of the Novigrad mages vs. what happens to nonhumans if you help them, Keira's questline which has multiple outcomes, who rules Skellige, the fate of Whoreson Jr. and Dudu, who rules the North, the fates of Ciri and Geralt, tons of smaller side quests like the leshen contract, the curse on the cheating husband in Skellige, etc, etc.

And none of DAI's choices matter because even with Viv as Divine, the "Bright Hand" or whatever it's called gets formed, even when I supported putting mages back in Circles the whole game, Orlais doesn't fall apart, the elves go support Solas, etc, etc.

I agree that the Witcher 3's C&C is good too. I just Like DA:I's better. You are perfectly welcome to prefer TW3. Just because Corephius always dies, Orlais doesn't fall apart and the Elves depart Southern Thedas doesn't mean there aren't tons of meaningful consequences to choices. As I said, the main story ends in a similar place, but there are a bunch of variations along the way that can effect the way it plays out. I was impressed.

EDIT: Sorry for dragging this off topic. I'll stop now.

 

[Riven-Twain]

EDIT: Sorry for dragging this off topic. I'll stop now.

Thank you, Rawls. And, to everyone else, let's head back to The Witcher III, please.