Divinity: Original Sin

[ReptilePZ]

You can have an interesting main story without it being too serious, but Larian went for a fairly generic one from what I've seen so far. Anyway, that's the one thing that I feel would make the game Superb, as Kudos put it. As it stands, it's "merely" great, a strong RPG of the year contender

 

[volsung]

I agree that the main story could be seen as the game's "weakest spot". But the humorous and sometimes hilarious side quests, exploration, secrets and puzzles make up for it imo. A serious and deep story and deep C&C in dialogues is just not the focus of this game (I think that's not only a writing "problem" but also a design decision based on the co-op vision)...

An elaborate narrative with tangible consequences IS the focus of cRPG's. That'd be a serious weakness in D:OS. There are plenty other turn based combat games out there.

In any case, a trend I've seen with some crowdfunded games is that more than a game they've been releasing game worlds with editors. It's the curse of NWN: provide the tools to extend the game's life indefinitely at the cost of a weak actual game. Judging from what I've read (solid mechanics, great exploration and interactivity, passable narrative) this might be the case here.

The same thing happened with Shadowrun Returns but thankfully Dragonfall focused much more on the game than the toolset.

As much fun as trying random stuff might be, the thing that made me spend hundreds of hours in cRPG's was the cohesive narrative. It gives context to everything else.

 

[ReptilePZ]

It's not that the narrative isn't cohesive, it's perfectly servicable. It's just nothing special and weaker than the rest of what the game has to offer.

 

[Scholdarr]

An elaborate narrative with tangible consequences IS the focus of cRPG's. That'd be a serious weakness in D:OS. There are plenty other turn based combat games out there.

I refuse to think in categories, mate. If the absence of deep choice&consequence in dialogue is crucial for a CRPG for you then it's just not one. Who cares? The game is still huge fan, no matter if I call it CRPG or casual RPG or whatever. The only think that matters is whether it's fun to play or not. I hate these highly theoretical category thinking approaches aka "Someone called this an RPG so it must contain feature A and B". No, actually not. A category is there for trying to describe a game best to people who don't know it. It's not there to limit games or push them in certain boundaries. Category thinking is the total opposite of creativity. So D:OS might not offer the best story ever and it lacks deep choice&consequense. So what? The game is great fun nevertheless...


I would also be very careful with the word "generic". That's imo kind of insulting and (disdainfully) misleading, and it's also not fitting here anyway.

 

[Blothulfur]

Why is a game with so much stuff, so much fun, so many features and aspects of gameplay being made by a small indie company with the help of crowdfunding? Why have AAA devs been stripping down their games for the last twenty plus years, so that now they're just alternating combat and conversation in corridors? Is it our fault as consumers that we have settled for and even defended clearly degenerate feature stripping and content streamlining? Why has it taken twenty plus years to make a game that is not on par with Ultima VII, because it lacks the narrative excellence, but that comes damn close?

I don't think we can just blame 3d anymore, I think there's something inherently wrong with AAA developers and publishers, and maybe us as discerning customers. Whatever I think though one fact remains, Larian have just pulled down the pants of the big publishers and gid their bare buttocks a spanking that'll leave 'em red cheeked for a week, good on you Sven.

 

[Scholdarr]

Why is a game with so much stuff, so much fun, so many features and aspects of gameplay being made by a small indie company with the help of crowdfunding? Why have AAA devs been stripping down their games for the last twenty plus years, so that now they're just alternating combat and conversation in corridors? Is it our fault as consumers that we have settled for and even defended clearly degenerate feature stripping and content streamlining? Why has it taken twenty plus years to make a game that is not on par with Ultima VII, because it lacks the narrative excellence, but that comes damn close?

I don't think we can just blame 3d anymore, I think there's something inherently wrong with AAA developers and publishers, and maybe us as discerning customers. Whatever I think though one fact remains, Larian have just pulled down the pants of the big publishers and gid their bare buttocks a spanking that'll leave red cheeked for a week, good on you Sven.

Well, the problem is just size. A game that is excellent in design but only caters to a rather niche audience isn't interesting for big publishers nowadays. Maybe D:OS will sell 500,000 copies or even a million. That's still the lowest possible amount for a big publisher. They don't support "smaller" games (in investment sum) because of the big financial overhead they have. Even Ubisoft usually only invests in in-house AA games (with CoJ Gunslinger as exception). That's just how business works.

Fortunately for us, things have changed again with digital distribution and new forms of funding that gives smaller devs the option to develop these kinds of games for niche audiences again.

 

[Blothulfur]

Popularity of the medium has meant a lessening in quality, now that's irony.

 

[gedierond]

This game wasn´t really high on my to-play list, but seeing all you guys say about it makes me wanna play it badly!
Damn long backlog!!

 

[Aes Sídhe]

All the comments concerning the story are entirely valid, it is the weakest point, but it is also entirely sufficient. You'll note my comments on the matter: first impression was "frivolously verbose", later I point out "how involved in the story is also your choice". I'm giving them a by-ball on this one, Blo's questions are ones I struggle to answer too. The style of the narrative is not uncommon, in fact its a detectable trend in Euro rpgs going way back, a light-hearted approach to fantasy which clashes particularly with those of us with a D&D background and it's not directly comparable with the Black Isle / Interplay / Bioware classics. The games Workshop stuff is more likely to include such elements, but to my mind it's a mainland Europe thing really. I don't mind it since i've found I can skim it for relevant details, at least not right now in my current mood, but other games with similar story i've been turned off by it, and I know if my mood had been different I might've shelved this game when I thought "frivolously verbose". But I'm glad I didn't, all the other aspects - the multitude of little pleasures I'm getting from gameplay engagement - have been great, for me, now. Perhaps if there was an abundance of the genre available right now I would feel different.

@.Volsung. I know this aspect is perhaps your single most important thing, and you know it's also important to me, but perfection is rare, and you would enjoy the other aspects, if like me you can forgive one weakness for so many strengths. This game - in gameplay terms - does belong somewhere in the evolutionary tree of those classics mentioned earlier & abandoned by Bioware, they have taken up some of the dropped genes and evolved them to what we should've had long ago.

Theres another cogent point rolling around my head concerning this, we Witchers have been ruined by CDPR & The Witcher 2, thats the bar, our standard to beat, and no one else has/is/probably will come close to that narrative quality. It's not only unachievable by many devs, it's also not for every player... and I guess that's my only answer to you Blo... blame Market Research.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

I think inXile have better expectations when it comes to the story line.

 

[Aes Sídhe]

Well of course, but they have pedigree in this, and their proposal indicated such as an essential component. Larian do not & did not, this narrative continues their previous inhouse style also. You know there is room for this light-heartedness, if we had all the KS games right now we might appreciate one that was lighter...

edit: as an example theres a mob, I love it... the Exploskeleton, you can imagine what it does.... it's the sort of thing you never see in the D&D games, it's just not serious enough, but it's got relatives in other light hearted fantasy, like Warhammer...

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

@Kudos: Sure, both can be fun to play. Though I definitely value the story as one of the primary components in the RPG.

 

[Aes Sídhe]

The story isn't bad it's just light hearted, and a light touch, and matches the game somewhat - some "non-serious" mobs & "silly but understandable" crafting recipes, I guess that's the point i'm trying to get across. Hey theres a bit of Diablo in there too lootwise, and I always detested Diablo, but Larian got that ingredient right as well. It's altogether mentally engaging gameplay wise & a lot of fun to boot, nothing at all wrong with a game simply being fun, is there... even if it's an rpg?

Again, I'm here vacationing from Dark Souls 2, an RPG with very little obvious narrative that nonetheless contains a subtly hidden deep & dark story that imparts a continually growing sense of unease that makes the player become their character and feel every blow and eventually hollow, and I welcome this highly approachable, friendly atmosphered, well crafted, tactical combat party game thats got a fair blend of humour & seriousness.... thank feck every game is not the same I say !

 

[Username.]

Well of course, but they have pedigree in this, and their proposal indicated such as an essential component. Larian do not & did not, this narrative continues their previous inhouse style also. You know there is room for this light-heartedness, if we had all the KS games right now we might appreciate one that was lighter...

edit: as an example theres a mob, I love it... the Exploskeleton, you can imagine what it does.... it's the sort of thing you never see in the D&D games, it's just not serious enough, but it's got relatives in other light hearted fantasy, like Warhammer...

You know what's great about the exploskeleton? If you use the rain spell he becomes wet and can't ignite himself, thus rendering him harmless.

 

[Scholdarr]

I think inXile have better expectations when it comes to the story line.

I don't know. Wasteland 2 sucks badly compared to D:OS. D:OS looks and feels like a AAA game while WL2 looks and feels like a more or less clunky indie game based on my time with the beta lately. Maybe on the story side WL2 (and Torment) might be more serious and even "better" but in every other aspect of the game it's IMHO inferior.

You could argue whether WL2 is the better RPG but it's not a better (=more fun) game so far.

Let's take for example XCOM EU/EW. Imo that was one of the most fun games of 2012/2013. But the story was hardly existent. The game was built around its turn-based combat system. That's about all but it was fun. D:OS is like XCOM but boosted like hell with exploration, dialogue, story, secrets, open world and so on. Doesn't count that much imo if it fits the hardcore story RPG genre that much or not imo.

 

[Aes Sídhe]

You know what's great about the exploskeleton? If you use the rain spell he becomes wet and can't ignite himself, thus rendering him harmless.

Skill use combined with the landscape and/or mobs is one of the games most satisfying aspects, there's a better use of the Exploskele imo, but it really would be a spoiler.... the tactical combat of this game really does approach the sublime, and no rpg using a similar system comes close to it, I swear.

Now I must go clear that first map !

 

[Smiling_Jack1]

Why has it taken twenty plus years to make a game that is not on par with Ultima VII, because it lacks the narrative excellence, but that comes damn close?

On the other hand it has way better combat than Ultima 7. Sure, i value story more than combat so for me it comes short, but the case can be made that D:OS is on par or even better than U7.

 

[volsung]

I refuse to think in categories, mate. If the absence of deep choice&consequence in dialogue is crucial for a CRPG for you then it's just not one. Who cares? (...) So D:OS might not offer the best story ever and it lacks deep choice&consequense. So what? The game is great fun nevertheless...

(...) perfection is rare, and you would enjoy the other aspects, if like me you can forgive one weakness for so many strengths. This game - in gameplay terms - does belong somewhere in the evolutionary tree of those classics mentioned earlier & abandoned by Bioware, they have taken up some of the dropped genes and evolved them to what we should've had long ago.

You could argue whether WL2 is the better RPG but it's not a better (=more fun) game so far.

You guys are absolutely right. Who cares if it is a traditional RPG or not as long as it IS a fun game (and challenging for the right reasons). I had some expectations given the way people are describing it, but just like in the old days some games within a similar approach that we like might be better at doing some things and worse at others. Compare Icewind Dale combat vs PS:T narrative and the other way around.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

I would reserve any opinions on WL2 until the release though. It's still unfinished.

 

[Scholdarr]

I would reserve any opinions on WL2 until the release though. It's still unfinished.

True. My assessment is solely based on the beta (played it two weeks ago). The game might be a lot better once finished, we'll see. But tbh D:OS in beta was much more fun than WL2 in beta. And while some things might change or will be improved the basic design and core decisions will more or less stay the same (at least that's my experience with most late betas I've played so far)...