I think the quest marker is closely related to game length at the end. The people who pay development costs of AAA games is not those who want 100 of hours of story I fear, it used to be enough in RPGs to give a journal entry for a quest with some location,name of npc (if any) and quest description...but people was complaining it was frustating....so developers give up journal entries and just use quest markers (in big urban environment you need good street naming and numbering,in rural setting you will need good landmarks), its the "pop culture" that @Ayinde_Palmer is referring.
My issues isn't with quest markers, there fine and all, but its the movement between them that counts. If a player fast travels, or takes some form of transport that negates large parts of a map, they are bound to miss out on what is actually on the map in-between quest markers.
Personally I think Oblivion, Skyrim, FO3, FO3NV, and FO4 all do a pretty good job by placing the next main quest makers some distance form one another, thus making the player have to navigate the map and find random encounters, side quest, dungeons/calves ect ect.
I think for the writers/creators, its more like... if a lot of people walk out on your movie, its not considered a good movie. Now regular games are a bit different. You can enjoy playing Terri's without ever finishing it. But for rpgs? not sure most people who don't finish an rpg think of it as a good game. They may not hate it, but in my memory, the ones I didnt put signifigant time in, were kinda not that good to me.
20% seems pretty low for me, for an rpg, but I will say due to pop culture, there may be a lot who bought it who aren't reg rpg type players.
I think the Cp style of having a medium sized main story with a lot of side content works well to balance those who want dif levels of engagement. I would develop the side stories even better. Though, from the posts here, some who wanted a deeper game didnt naturally find some of the side content, so maybe there's some loss.
was there ever an rpg that you liked but didnt finish?
Certainly a valid point. I think it was a complete disaster and contributed to the dissatisfaction with the game.
Frankly, I feel like Cyberpunk 2077 feels like 2/3rds of the size it should be and this is a feeling I only felt with Mankind Divided where they literally split the game in half.
We can therefore thank the developers, because I think, the business model that would be the most profitable could be a video game that would take 20-30 hours (at most) to finish at 100% and at 60 Euros.
Out of curiosity, do you know how many of these encounters (for lack of a better term) there is?
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My issues isn't with quest markers, there fine and all, but its the movement between them that counts. If a player fast travels, or takes some form of transport that negates large parts of a map, they are bound to miss out on what is actually on the map in-between quest markers.
Personally I think Oblivion, Skyrim, FO3, FO3NV, and FO4 all do a pretty good job by placing the next main quest makers some distance form one another, thus making the player have to navigate the map and find random encounters, side quest, dungeons/calves ect ect.
most side jobs are started by proximity, or some prerequisite other quests cause them to call you directly. goin down this side job list.... 33 of them I think? might be somewhat off.
Side Jobs, also more commonly known as Side Quests, are important jobs offered by important story characters in Cyberpunk 2077 and Phantom Liberty. They are usually tied to or directly following certain Main Jobs. This page lists all of them categorized by importance of the character, and are...
cyberpunk.fandom.com
you can count, if you remove epistrophy, the relationship based ones, where they call you, and it has a trigger, but its usually unavoidable due to MSQ.
most of the rest you only see them if you get close to the marker, or they'll call you if you fulfilled the requirement of doing some other optional quest
We can therefore thank the developers, because I think, the business model that would be the most profitable could be a video game that would take 20-30 hours (at most) to finish at 100% and at 60 Euros.
Not trying to be as funny as others here, but I think that's one of the worst take aways from all of this that I've ever seen. Sorry, honestly!
Game's should not be getting shorter just so more can reach the 100% mark. That's like making a marathon shorter so more people can finish it. The whole 100% completion mark is for those who want to go the extra mile and get that achievement/award. Not everyone can finish a marathon, but its the trying that counts, and for those who do finish it, its a massive achievement.
While not everyone will 100% complete a game, a lot will finish the main story/quest and get the gist of what the game had to offer, but those who do 100% it, they normally get some sort of Steam achievement (or equivalent platform achievement).
As for games in general, I'd hate to see games get shorter, especially if the price of said game does not scale in accordance. Additionally, just because people chose not to finish a game, that does not mean its a bad game, or there is something wrong with it, or the people who drop the game. It's the very fact that it is a choice to complete it or not, giving people a choice is never a bad thing.
That honestly alarmed me to see someone actually want shorter games
most side jobs are started by proximity, or some prerequisite other quests cause them to call you directly. goin down this side job list.... 33 of them I think? might be somewhat off.
Side Jobs, also more commonly known as Side Quests, are important jobs offered by important story characters in Cyberpunk 2077 and Phantom Liberty. They are usually tied to or directly following certain Main Jobs. This page lists all of them categorized by importance of the character, and are...
cyberpunk.fandom.com
you can count, if you remove epistrophy, the relationship based ones, where they call you, and it has a trigger, but its usually unavoidable due to MSQ.
most of the rest you only see them if you get close to the marker, or they'll call you if you fulfilled the requirement of doing some other optional quest
Ah but you see, someone calling V and saying "hey go here ect" just because V was in a certain part of NC is a bit different from walking through a village in Oblivion and noticing that no-one is around but only then to realise everyone is actually invisible.
I think CDPR could have done things a little better as it seems that everyone can get a hold of V for some reason. I feel like there should have been some sort of formal introduction to each fixer, and even some sort of test set out by some of them to see if V can handle their sorts of jobs.
Additionally, CDPR should have (and still can) remove quest markers for a lot of these small encounters, especially the NCPD scanner hustles, it would make them all feel a bit more natural. At the moment, since they are marked on the map, its like everyone is just paused waiting for V to turn up before the start shooting. It gives the effect that V is in some sort of Truman Show kind of world. In a way, that might have been one sick ending if it had have been that V was actually inside of Mikoshi the whole time
Personally I like walking/riding/driving around a map in games and naturally finding things, or seeing thing unfold in front of me, rather than having some unknow person chime in on a phone and putting a quest maker down for me. But I suppose its different strokes for different folks.
most side jobs are started by proximity, or some prerequisite other quests cause them to call you directly. goin down this side job list.... 33 of them I think? might be somewhat off.
Side Jobs, also more commonly known as Side Quests, are important jobs offered by important story characters in Cyberpunk 2077 and Phantom Liberty. They are usually tied to or directly following certain Main Jobs. This page lists all of them categorized by importance of the character, and are...
cyberpunk.fandom.com
you can count, if you remove epistrophy, the relationship based ones, where they call you, and it has a trigger, but its usually unavoidable due to MSQ.
most of the rest you only see them if you get close to the marker, or they'll call you if you fulfilled the requirement of doing some other optional quest
A friend of mine was proud of finishing Cyberpunk. Except he didn't know about Panam, Judy, or Kerry's quests or Delamains among many others because he didn't do Sidegigs.
Additionally, CDPR should have (and still can) remove quest markers for a lot of these small encounters, especially the NCPD scanner hustles, it would make them all feel a bit more natural. At the moment, since they are marked on the map, its like everyone is just paused waiting for V to turn up before the start shooting. It gives the effect that V is in some sort of Truman Show kind of world. In a way, that might have been one sick ending if it had have been that V was actually inside of Mikoshi the whole time
Personally I like walking/riding/driving around a map in games and naturally finding things, or seeing thing unfold in front of me, rather than having some unknow person chime in on a phone and putting a quest maker down for me. But I suppose its different strokes for different folks.
And then V wakes up and it was all just a dream....
V is pretty much Truman tho since youre the focus. Take the Cyberpsycos for example. Ppl dont start fleeing untill you get close and the call triggers so it is pretty much truman show all over. Kinda hard to not be tho since you would miss alot of stuff if it wasent.
And then V wakes up and it was all just a dream....
V is pretty much Truman tho since youre the focus. Take the Cyberpsycos for example. Ppl dont start fleeing untill you get close and the call triggers so it is pretty much truman show all over. Kinda hard to not be tho since you would miss alot of stuff if it wasent.
Not trying to be as funny as others here, but I think that's one of the worst take aways from all of this that I've ever seen. Sorry, honestly!
Game's should not be getting shorter just so more can reach the 100% mark. That's like making a marathon shorter so more people can finish it. The whole 100% completion mark is for those who want to go the extra mile and get that achievement/award. Not everyone can finish a marathon, but its the trying that counts, and for those who do finish it, its a massive achievement.
While not everyone will 100% complete a game, a lot will finish the main story/quest and get the gist of what the game had to offer, but those who do 100% it, they normally get some sort of Steam achievement (or equivalent platform achievement).
As for games in general, I'd hate to see games get shorter, especially if the price of said game does not scale in accordance. Additionally, just because people chose not to finish a game, that does not mean its a bad game, or there is something wrong with it, or the people who drop the game. It's the very fact that it is a choice to complete it or not, giving people a choice is never a bad thing.
That honestly alarmed me to see someone actually want shorter games
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Ah but you see, someone calling V and saying "hey go here ect" just because V was in a certain part of NC is a bit different from walking through a village in Oblivion and noticing that no-one is around but only then to realise everyone is actually invisible.
I think CDPR could have done things a little better as it seems that everyone can get a hold of V for some reason. I feel like there should have been some sort of formal introduction to each fixer, and even some sort of test set out by some of them to see if V can handle their sorts of jobs.
Additionally, CDPR should have (and still can) remove quest markers for a lot of these small encounters, especially the NCPD scanner hustles, it would make them all feel a bit more natural. At the moment, since they are marked on the map, its like everyone is just paused waiting for V to turn up before the start shooting. It gives the effect that V is in some sort of Truman Show kind of world. In a way, that might have been one sick ending if it had have been that V was actually inside of Mikoshi the whole time
Personally I like walking/riding/driving around a map in games and naturally finding things, or seeing thing unfold in front of me, rather than having some unknow person chime in on a phone and putting a quest maker down for me. But I suppose its different strokes for different folks.
most side quests on the list, that aren't calls are location based.
like the Gary the prophet stuff, highwayman, Brendan, Zen master, fire crotch, the monk Brothers, etc
there are actually less call based ones, but the call based ones are always based on someone knowing you from something you did with them, or someone else telling them about you.
but wandering around would be pretty poor way to implement the majority of the quests in an open world city. I think they can use more of them, however, they would still need to have direction for the majority of the quests. Living in NYC, I can tell you that you will rarely find anything without knowing about it ahead of time. And based on this forum, many of the things that aren't listed, or don't always happen are missed or ignored by players. Npc conversations with each other seem to be generally ignored or unknown info for many players.
How many people register Valentinos talking about Gustavo Orta, or a lady talking about how the cops treat denizens of rancho coranado?
How many people went back to the coyote bar after the ofrenda and get Pepe's quest with his wife? Its probably a lot less than people who did any of Regina's throwaway gigs.
So I can understand why devs might want those type of quests to be less common than premarked quests.
A friend of mine was proud of finishing Cyberpunk. Except he didn't know about Panam, Judy, or Kerry's quests or Delamains among many others because he didn't do Sidegigs.
But you see, your friend kind of proof (wild extrapolation from 1 sample i know,but we engineers like to make mathematicians angry) the point of CP2077 design(and still, is the minority who finishes the main quest). He finished the main quest, he had a save point before the point of no return with a message that says "there is still plenty to do" he decided that was all fine... for other people, that design allows to keep playing without restarting from scratch which many people will not do, is why a the witcher 2 kind of branching is also something that for devs its not good.
Ah but you see, someone calling V and saying "hey go here ect" just because V was in a certain part of NC is a bit different from walking through a village in Oblivion and noticing that no-one is around but only then to realise everyone is actually invisible.
Well, the problem with a lot of the gigs in game is the gameplay loop they use is... not good. A quest is like a mini-story. There is a beginning, middle and end. The gameplay loop for many gigs basically guts the beginning, or setup phase, and turns it into going to a mark on the map to receive a simple info-dump via call or text. Likewise, they turn the end into a "gig complete" via a simple call or text. Neither offers any type of interaction or engagement.
It's difficult to feel drawn in or gain a sense of attachment to a piece of content when it takes such streamlined shortcuts. It's worse yet when the middle part, or the meat of the content, is a simple little tasks like walking into a room and destroying everything.
There are many other quests in CP where the gameplay loop is very different. The beginning phase involves engagement with characters and/or events in the game world. It then progresses to the meat of the content. There is often engagement or interaction there. The end itself often adds further engagement or interaction in some way. Many (most?) of the slices of MQ content take this approach. The character side-arc quests (side quests) take this approach. Some of the gigs do it. Surprise, surprise, people generally praise that content.
There might be constructive feedback hidden in there. That praised content, do that in the future. The other stuff, don't do that anymore.
For the record, shards on the back-end providing interesting lore or slightly more context on the quest cannot salvage a sub-par gameplay loop. It's too large of a burden for them to overcome.
In terms of the relevance to the thread. I doubt the discussions on a shorter game were exclusive to the MQ. They likely were extended to include all of the content.
But you see, your friend kind of proof (wild extrapolation from 1 sample i know,but we engineers like to make mathematicians angry) the point of CP2077 design(and still, is the minority who finishes the main quest). He finished the main quest, he had a save point before the point of no return with a message that says "there is still plenty to do" he decided that was all fine...
Well, the problem with a lot of the gigs in game is the gameplay loop they use is... not good. A quest is like a mini-story. There is a beginning, middle and end. The gameplay loop for many gigs basically guts the beginning, or setup phase, and turns it into going to a mark on the map to receive a simple info-dump via call or text. Likewise, they turn the end into a "gig complete" via a simple call or text. Neither offers any type of interaction or engagement.
It's difficult to feel drawn in or gain a sense of attachment to a piece of content when it takes such streamlined shortcuts. It's worse yet when the middle part, or the meat of the content, is a simple little tasks like walking into a room and destroying everything.
There are many other quests in CP where the gameplay loop is very different. The beginning phase involves engagement with characters and/or events in the game world. It then progresses to the meat of the content. There is often engagement or interaction there. The end itself often adds further engagement or interaction in some way. Many (most?) of the slices of MQ content take this approach. The character side-arc quests (side quests) take this approach. Some of the gigs do it. Surprise, surprise, people generally praise that content.
There might be constructive feedback hidden in there. That praised content, do that in the future. The other stuff, don't do that anymore.
For the record, shards on the back-end providing interesting lore or slightly more context on the quest cannot salvage a sub-par gameplay loop. It's too large of a burden for them to overcome.
In terms of the relevance to the thread. I doubt the discussions on a shorter game were exclusive to the MQ. They likely were extended to include all of the content.
The point of making the game shorter is to reduce production costs. It's not some innovative design philosophy used to benefit the player.
Yes and no, i mean for sure less content-->lower cost no discussion on that. Still, at least they did a game structure that is "casual gamer" friendly while allowing those more invested to 2x,3x their play time.
I still think, that AAA budgets and niche genres are a difficult combination.
In AAA,for good or for bad devoted players don't pay the costs... so devs need to balance stuff to make them accesible to "majority" of players ( like depth of RPG mechanics sometimes).
An alternative way is crowdfunding, you define goals and stretched goals... you can know how much interest you have on your idea and you have the budget, sales afterwards is financial stability for the studio and a emergency cash cushion if next project don't go as expected.
In recent times,you have plenty of RPGs made that way:
Tides if Numenera,Wasteland 2 and 3,Divinity:Original Sin 1 &2,Banner Saga 3,Shadowrun Returns(whose stretch is Dragonfall),Shadowrun Hong Kong,Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2...( if I missed someone favorite,please feel free to add).
All of them are good RPGs(some excellent), but they will not fit to AAA expectations of TW3 or CP2077...
Its not the best arrangement, but just consider the closure of Troika and that Obsidian was close to failure before Pillars( iap,the guys from New Vegas)... at the end studios are not NGOs and have to pay bills.
But you see, your friend kind of proof (wild extrapolation from 1 sample i know,but we engineers like to make mathematicians angry) the point of CP2077 design(and still, is the minority who finishes the main quest). He finished the main quest, he had a save point before the point of no return with a message that says "there is still plenty to do" he decided that was all fine... for other people, that design allows to keep playing without restarting from scratch which many people will not do, is why a the witcher 2 kind of branching is also something that for devs its not good.
Actually, I think it's closer to all those people who did the Iorveth or Roche path but not realized there was an entirely different act that he didn't KNOW he'd missed a massive amount of content and I had to point it out to him before he realized it. The content was hidden from him because he saw it as optional since it only triggered after finishing gigs.
Yes and no, i mean for sure less content-->lower cost no discussion on that. Still, at least they did a game structure that is "casual gamer" friendly while allowing those more invested to 2x,3x their play time.
I still think, that AAA budgets and niche genres are a difficult combination.
In AAA,for good or for bad devoted players don't pay the costs... so devs need to balance stuff to make them accesible to "majority" of players ( like depth of RPG mechanics sometimes).
An alternative way is crowdfunding, you define goals and stretched goals... you can know how much interest you have on your idea and you have the budget, sales afterwards is financial stability for the studio and a emergency cash cushion if next project don't go as expected.
In recent times,you have plenty of RPGs made that way:
Tides if Numenera,Wasteland 2 and 3,Divinity:Original Sin 1 &2,Banner Saga 3,Shadowrun Returns(whose stretch is Dragonfall),Shadowrun Hong Kong,Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2...( if I missed someone favorite,please feel free to add).
All of them are good RPGs(some excellent), but they will not fit to AAA expectations of TW3 or CP2077...
Its not the best arrangement, but just consider the closure of Troika and that Obsidian was close to failure before Pillars( iap,the guys from New Vegas)... at the end studios are not NGOs and have to pay bills.
Cyberpunk is a weird hill to die on for saying it's a niche genre given its a combination of Deus Ex and Grand Theft Auto. It should have been an incredibly easy game to make but they didn't hire enough people who had made both and the engine wasn't designed for either. They might have done much better to stick to a 3rd person protagonist with Mantis Blades and Hacks/Magic.
Its not the best arrangement, but just consider the closure of Troika and that Obsidian was close to failure before Pillars( iap,the guys from New Vegas)... at the end studios are not NGOs and have to pay bills.
Troika was like 15 years ago tho, the game industry is much much bigger now. Alot of my favorite games are on that list and i dont consider them worse (or lesser) then most AAA games today. Sadly i think your right in the watering down of more "hardcore" rpgs and so on from AAA studios to appeal to a broader audience. As long as studios are honest they can release whatever they want imho, ill just wont buy it if it doesnt appeal too me. Sadly today most games try too appeal to all the people and becomes jack of all trades master of none. And most bigger AAA studios have to make ALL the money, its just never enough. But hey thats the world we live in...
Actually, I think it's closer to all those people who did the Iorveth or Roche path but not realized there was an entirely different act that he didn't KNOW he'd missed a massive amount of content and I had to point it out to him before he realized it. The content was hidden from him because he saw it as optional since it only triggered after finishing gigs.
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Cyberpunk is a weird hill to die on for saying it's a niche genre given its a combination of Deus Ex and Grand Theft Auto. It should have been an incredibly easy game to make but they didn't hire enough people who had made both and the engine wasn't designed for either. They might have done much better to stick to a 3rd person protagonist with Mantis Blades and Hacks/Magic.
Skipping side quests is hardly the developer fault,at least they provide with a safe point so you can pretend you didn't finish the game to do what you didn't do before the ending.
By niche I was not thinking about Cyberpunk setting or the urban setting ( i don't think they ever wanted to do a gta clone,although marketing i agree was pro-hype), i was thinking about RPG as genre being niche. Even Deus Ex:HR and Mankind felt that went through a "AAA massage" compared with the original Deus Ex (look at their character progression system).
Troika was like 15 years ago tho, the game industry is much much bigger now. Alot of my favorite games are on that list and i dont consider them worse (or lesser) then most AAA games today. Sadly i think your right in the watering down of more "hardcore" rpgs and so on from AAA studios to appeal to a broader audience. As long as studios are honest they can release whatever they want imho, ill just wont buy it if it doesnt appeal too me. Sadly today most games try too appeal to all the people and becomes jack of all trades master of none. And most bigger AAA studios have to make ALL the money, its just never enough. But hey thats the world we live in...
I put that list because i also have some favorites, and also i don't think are worse or lesser than AAA but clearly "hardcore" RPG gamers might overlook production values than AAA public cannot (i'm not gonna say which is "better" RPG,all have their merits and weakneses).
Troika was 15 years ago,and videogame industry was much smaller...still the closure seems relevant today: big ambitious project,over time and over budget,released as bug fest (forced by over time and over budget) and poor sales.Troika previous games (arcanum and temple) didn't sell good enough to keep them running (and they failed the pitch of Fallout 3).
CDPR is in a different shape I think, since TW3 generated a good cash cow, so I'm confident of bugfixes,patches and expansions... but story tells that it only take couple of bad projects to kill a studio, so some risk aversion in AAA developers is to be expected.
Skipping side quests is hardly the developer fault,at least they provide with a safe point so you can pretend you didn't finish the game to do what you didn't do before the ending.
Again, not what I meant. I meant that he didn't even know he was skipping content because it was so damned hard to find due to the fact it requires you to get phone calls after finishing other side content.
Again, not what I meant. I meant that he didn't even know he was skipping content because it was so damned hard to find due to the fact it requires you to get phone calls after finishing other side content.
On my second play through, I realized I missed content because of those timed phone calls. I rushed the "point of no return" thinking it was over.
But now having just finished my second play through, I think I got everything this time. lol...... i think.
I was able to finally enjoy the best ending, and I got a lot of voicemails from people I did sidequests with. Most of them very nice, one or two told me to fuck off, and one of those guys told me thinks his wife is conspiring against him. lol So I think it bagged it all this time.
But I wish Adam Smasher was harder. He was very easy, and he was built up as someone to worry about. And the sold it well. Level up his stats along with Vs. He's the final boss fight. I dropped his ass about 1 minute. Well I dragged it out because I just wanted to see him, then he jumped up to the second level and I couldn't really see him so I just killed him.
I put that list because i also have some favorites, and also i don't think are worse or lesser than AAA but clearly "hardcore" RPG gamers might overlook production values than AAA public cannot (i'm not gonna say which is "better" RPG,all have their merits and weakneses).
Troika was 15 years ago,and videogame industry was much smaller...still the closure seems relevant today: big ambitious project,over time and over budget,released as bug fest (forced by over time and over budget) and poor sales.Troika previous games (arcanum and temple) didn't sell good enough to keep them running (and they failed the pitch of Fallout 3).
CDPR is in a different shape I think, since TW3 generated a good cash cow, so I'm confident of bugfixes,patches and expansions... but story tells that it only take couple of bad projects to kill a studio, so some risk aversion in AAA developers is to be expected.
Well Troika dident have the same goodwill and love that CDPR hade, not too mention all the money they made from W3 and getting cash from shops/gog/investors. The games might be similar but the companys dont seem similar at all. That said, i still bought VTM:B and played the hell outa it (still play it, once a year atleast). Bugs/glitches dident matter since it was a awsome game. Just like they would not do in this game for me if i really loved the game. Sadly i dont. I really wanted too but i just cant.
It's not the case for Cyberpunk, true. It would have been if the game was a hardcore, oldschool, pure RPG.
Kingdom Come: Deliverance is open world RPG and it exceeds Cyberpunk 2077 in depth and complexity by a large margin. It sold 3 million copies, which is not exactly the number CDPR and other AAA studios are looking for.
