Do you think CP77 is far too sci-fi?

[WhiteYoghurt]

So, in the base game, there are sci-fi elements like:
- Relic, Mikoshi
- AIs
- Black Wall and AIs getting past it
- implants including brain chips, prosthetic limbs, skin armor, cosmetics, etc
- flying cars
- people colonizing the Moon (and looking for aliens)
- brainwashing technologies
- personalized commercials, talking vending machines, etc
- etc

In the expansion, there are:
- face-swapping implant
- spider-tank with laser beam
- an underground facility guarded by an angry robot with a meat-mixer
- unleashing Black Wall
- shooting Song to the Moon
- etc

There are also plenty more elements related to them through the state of society in general (NUSA, NC, corporations, etc) - synthetic food, dolls, cyberpsychosis, poverty, environmental crisis, nomads, gangs, etc.

Do you think the base game and the expansion are far too sci-fi (for the themes and mood it's trying to set)?
If so, what elements? And why?
What would you like to see in the upcoming CP game (Orion) regarding the state of technology and its usage in gameplay?

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I'm not a big expert about the original TTRPG, but I assume Cyberpunk 2077 is as sci-fi as its source material, so in theory it can't be too be much sci-fi
And in Orion, well... I guess it will depend of its timeline (when it take place), so if after, more "sci-fi" and advanced technologies.

 

[Tarille]

Do you think the base game and the expansion are far too sci-fi (for the themes and mood it's trying to set)?

Not really.

Given the basis of the game's IP is that most of this technology is actually quite old (We see Soulkiller being created back in 2022 and there have been Cyperpunk media set prior to that with even more wacky stuff than we see in game)

A good example is look at real life technology was 50 years ago. Then compare it to modern day. Now imagine what it would be like in 50 years when the game is set (The year 2077).

Now go back and imagine that we're starting from a point based on technology observed in Cyberpunk 2013 and advancing that some 60 years.

If anything, the game is far more down to Earth than it should be given the advanced date it is set in and the amount of things omitted from the game.

Things like the Bozos, Werewolves, Prime Time Players etc.

What would you like to see in the upcoming CP game (Orion) regarding the state of technology and its usage in gameplay?

I don't know.

With no information about where or when it is set, I have no basis to form any opinions about it.

It could be set earlier than 2077 and feature less developed technology, it could be set later than 2077 and thus have more advanced technology.

It could be set somewhere that isn't contested by corpos and thus technology is not as available so it's more slap-dash junkyard scrap stuff. Or it could be set somewhere that has multiple corpos vying for control and thus there's a lot of tech to go around and potential experimental stuff that is being developed to gain the upper hand.

 

[WhiteYoghurt]

Given the basis of the game's IP is that most of this technology is actually quite old (We see Soulkiller being created back in 2022 and there have been Cyperpunk media set prior to that with even more wacky stuff than we see in game)

A good example is look at real life technology was 50 years ago. Then compare it to modern day. Now imagine what it would be like in 50 years when the game is set (The year 2077).

And that's where I see a contradiction. It's 2025, and humankind in the real world has nothing near Soulkiller, or the net as Cyberpunk presents it. I think Cyberpunk is an extremized version of the real world - in some ways more than others - which makes them difficult to compare.

If you think about the technology like prosthetic eye balls with "enhanced vision" commonly used by the public to transfer money or make calls, it's...hard to believe.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

And that's where I see a contradiction. It's 2025, and humankind in the real world has nothing near Soulkiller, or the net as Cyberpunk presents it.
I think Cyberpunk is an extremized version of the real world - in some ways more than others - which makes them difficult to compare.

Except Cyberpunk isn't based on the "real world", it is based on a TTRPG in which cyberwares and all sort of "sci-fi" stuff exist in 2000s. So it doesn't matter what is possible or not in our "reality" in 2025

 

[Tarille]

And that's where I see a contradiction. It's 2025, and humankind in the real world has nothing near Soulkiller, or the net as Cyberpunk presents it.
I think Cyberpunk is an extremized version of the real world - in some ways more than others - which makes them difficult to compare.

Which is why one has to consider the actual setting for the game.

It's an alternate reality Earth where technology was advanced enough for cybernetics and the net by 2013. With the actual start of this being in the 1990's.

Given that the setting itself is based on civil war in Central America in the 1980's leading to the Soviets, EU and Japan becoming global superpowers, with the world being embroiled in warfare backed by megacorporations. With this warfare pushing focus on bioengineering, creating cybernetic implants and human-machine interfaces.

Compare this to real life where megacorporations are instead trying to push Metaverses and NFT's to siphon money from morons instead of advancing any technology...

It's easy to see where the differences in technological focus can lead to differences between reality and CP's setting.

Then of course, there's always that theme. Cyberpunk uses the "Cyberpunk" theme, which like most of the "Punk" themes is heavily sci-fi based (Just look at the crazy things that you see in "Steampunk" settings for example. Often having technology beyond our current means, despite using an old fashioned and outdated steam based system). With the theme trending towards more "Futuristic" styles.

 

[WhiteYoghurt]

Except Cyberpunk isn't based on the "real world", it is based on a TTRPG in which cyberwares and all sort of "sci-fi" stuff exist in 2000s. So it doesn't matter what is possible or not in our "reality" in 2025

It's an alternate reality Earth where technology was advanced enough for cybernetics and the net by 2013. With the actual start of this being in the 1990's.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification

Anyway, what I meant by the original question:
I think Cyberpunk is intended to show the collision of people and technology before the latter overthrows the former.
What's interesting are the streets, people's lives, and what they do with the scraps thrown away by corporations.
The human aspect is shown many times in the game - having a beer with Panam, talking with Judy (Evelyn's death, herself lost in the city), plotting with Takemura (a fallen corporate deserter), Jackie's funeral (traditions and human feelings are still there), etc

On the other hand, there are scenes like Alt whipping Mikoshi, V's consciousness and body being reprogrammed, people travelling or living in space, robotic freaks like Maelstrom or Adam Smasher doing horrible things, etc.

That keeps me wondering if the world could be less technologically advanced and still able to tell cyberpunk stories.
And if so, what would it look like?

 

[Tarille]

I think Cyberpunk is intended to show the collision of people and technology before the latter overthrows the former.
What's interesting are the streets, people's lives, and what they do with the scraps thrown away by corporations.

Cyberpunk is very much focused around the advanced technology.

Where the constant war has degraded the value of human life. Exacerbated by the Corpos that control everything and will develop hilariously unethical technology in order to gain power. Thus people sacrifice more of their humanity to embrace technology, chipping themselves up for profit (Becoming Mercenaries/joining Gangs) or for pleasure (Braindances, Mr Stud, Joytoys etc).

The idea is that the world has become a dystopia due to the effects of war and technology. Where people don't matter, it's all about the megacorporations and their technology.

This is most obvious with the central plotline for 2077, which is revolving around Johnny and Arasaka. Arasaka kidnaps Alt to develop Soulkiller, killing her in the process (But an engram of her manages to exist on the net), Johnny tries to bring down Arasaka by nuking it. This not only doesn't work, but prompts Arasaka to use Soulkiller to kill Johnny and turn him into an engram housed on the Relic. This Relic is eventually stolen by V and gets activated by Dex shooting V and so begins the race against time to try and deal with the Relic (In which most of the endings are simply about going down in a blaze of glory trying to hit Arasaka in some way. Mirroring Johnny's nuke)

The entire thing is people don't matter. Corpos will do what Corpos do and everyone will die a meaningless death while Corporations persist because they have so much power and influence over the world.

Much of the focus of individuals lives is more of a CDPR thing rather than the IP itself. With both 2077 and Edgerunners they put a unique spin on things by including more "Regular folk", compared to the tabletop origins which is more focused on factions being at war with each other using various levels of insane technology (I mean... Just look at the Maelstrom)

That keeps me wondering if the world could be less technologically advanced and still able to tell cyberpunk stories.
And if so, what would it look like?

Theoretically, yes.

A setting during the 90's would allow for less advanced technology, but still revolve around Corpo control.

There could also be locations set where there is much less Corpo control and so there's more focus on people using whatever technology they can get their hands on to vie for power, giving a more Mad Max style existence. For example, if there's anywhere in the Middle East that still has people (Given that much of the Middle East is a radioactive wasteland due to nuclear attacks during the initial wars in the 80's, there's be no reason for a Corpo to set up any bases of operations there)

 

[WhiteYoghurt]

Much of the focus of individuals lives is more of a CDPR thing rather than the IP itself. With both 2077 and Edgerunners they put a unique spin on things by including more "Regular folk", compared to the tabletop origins which is more focused on factions being at war with each other using various levels of insane technology

Alright, that's new to me. I haven't read the books, but from Mike's quotes like "Cyberpunk isn't about saving the world, but yourself", I got the impression that people down there still want to live and find happiness.
That the case is not lost until one last fool fights for it...or many, like nomads.
The PUNK in the Cyberpunk.

If the absolute technological and corporate dominance is the case in the books, what does the PUNK stand for?

 

[spacefiddle]

What in the world

What... what do you think "cyberpunk" IS??? It is literally a subgenre of Science Fiction, a term coined in the late 80s with authors such as Bruce Sterling, William Gibson, Neil Stephenson, and Walter Jon Williams. Dystopian futures, invasive personal replacement technologies, "cyberspace" - these are all things that either originated with the Cyberpunk subgenre or else were greatly emphasized by it.

It's like asking if Tolkien is "too fantasy" xD

The game itself, like all paper 'n' pencil RPGs back in the day, was just a framework. The GM and players would decide what the focus was.
But good cyberpunk, like all good scifi, like all good writing... was about story and character. Much of it explored the impact of technology on people's lives, but the best of it explored the impact of *people* on people's lives, with the technology as a medium...

Just like how the author of Walking Dead said the real apocolypse in his story isn't the zombie plague, it's people. Think about how most of the problems in Walking Dead are actually caused by... unrestrained human nature. The zombies are just there to add tension . The stories are really about people.

 

[Tarille]

If the absolute technological and corporate dominance is the case in the books, what does the PUNK stand for?

The Punk is that people don't sit down and accept the status quo.

This is shown in the vast amount of different factions found in Cyberpunk. All these people don't simply accept their corporate overlords but instead choose to live on their own terms.

Yes, the technology is created by Corpos. But people use it to live their lives.

Whether it's the Nomads living outside any City, roaming the lands and being free from consumerism. Or the Prime Time Players who undergo appearance changes to make themselves look like old Sitcom characters. There's Werewolves and Catgirls made via genetic alteration. The Vampyres go around pulling pranks for fun.

Then of course there are the major gangs. The likes of Maelstrom, Tyger Claws, 6th Street, Valentinos, Danger Girls, Bozos, Animals, Mox, Voodoo Boys etc. Which carve out their own areas of influence that they control.

Just like real life punk hasn't taken down the government(s), it still allows people to live their lives while trying to minimize its control over them.

 

[MartineDee]

Not enough sci-fi, if something.

 

[SigilFey]

I'll throw this in there:

"Punk" was originally coined as a term to describe counter-culture movements in music during the later 70s and 80s in America. It revolved around the musical movement, and the spikey hair, leather, ripped denim, chains, etc. came from that, eventually becoming a whole niche culture that referred to themselves as "punk". There was no concept of building or saving anything. It was simply an expression of angst that rebelled against the idea of business suits, the 9-5 workday, and people being complacent with elements of society that punks considered stifling and overbearing. The downside was that they didn't offer anything except noise. The one exception was the people that managed to build some success in the music industry...so we had "punks" signing contracts and answering to producers to become successful. I think the irony speaks for itself and creates a lot of foundation for "cyberpunk" itself.)

So, in simplest terms, a punk was a person that tried way too hard to show that they would dress to stand out, make noise, refuse to pay taxes, be obnoxious towards police and other authorities, and generally create problems where there were none. All while offering nothing in return.

Cyberpunk took that idea and said: what if we twisted that situation to create a world that was, itself, not a daily grind that resulted in an expansive middle class and created stability, homes, and security for its people...what if the world was entirely corrupt, with corporations becoming more powerful than any potential government and actively exploiting its people for the gain of an out-of-control aristocracy answerable to absolutely no one?

So, you either became:
1.) a twisted individual willing to bleed innocent people by the thousands for their own, personal gain (megacorporations, corpo-militaries, Trauma Team, etc.)
2.) a simple criminal running drugs or robbing others on the street (gangers, theives, etc.)
3.) a washed out citizen that simply accepted that they were helpless and did odd jobs to eat and pay rent, knowing it was only a matter of time before they were crushed (an average NPC in the background.)
or
4.) a person that stood by their own moral compass, refusing to give in or support the corporations, the gangs, or any other organization like the Nomads, and instead would simply take on gigs that aligned with their own ideas of what life should be, kit themselves out with whatever chrome they could get, and rail against the whole world (cyberpunks).

There's really no direct question about right, wrong, good, evil, etc. It's a pure dystopia where there isn't really any "good" that can be done. It's just individuals that try to live their life according to their own motivations, and they'll ultimately lose. Being a cyberpunk means you'll either give in to the corps, or you'll flare brightly before you're ultimately crushed. The absolute "best" you can hope for is a drink to be named after you in a bar.

I don't see how that can be too much or not enough "sci-fi".

 

[WhiteYoghurt]

I don't see how that can be too much or not enough "sci-fi".

By how far have the extremes between cyber and punk progressed.
I was asking if the state of cyber (technological advancement and its usage) did or did not kill the punk (personal space) in the game for you?
And if so, what are the elements you didn't like?

For example:
- V's relation with Delamain. For some reason, V and Delamain heavily supported each other despite having no reason. Why? I would even expect V to stay away from Del, because it witnessed the heist and could tell someone.
- Arasaka soul-killed Jackie in one of the outcomes of the heist. Why? Why do they care about a random merc? They had to come in very shortly to "harvest the soul" from the dying body.
- Why did V take the contract from Mr. Blue Eyes in one of the endings? V knew he was behind the Peralezes' brainwashing. Even if V's goal was to wipe the whole Arasaka tower alone, it could be considered a punk move to do, not one necessarily leading to selling himself for prestige or whatnot.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

- V's relation with Delamain. For some reason, V and Delamain heavily supported each other despite having no reason. Why? I would even expect V to stay away from Del, because it witnessed the heist and could tell someone.

Why V would do that?
- Delamain is well known to keep his customer's secret(s).
- Delamain saved V's life not once, but two times.
Delamain is among the few that V can count on...

- Arasaka soul-killed Jackie in one of the outcomes of the heist. Why? Why do they care about a random merc? They had to come in very shortly to "harvest the soul" from the dying body.

Why?
I guess, you probably didn't listen what Goro said about that... Arasaka "used" Jackie's engram, even damaged because made from a dead person, to gather intels (likely about the heist and/or everything a bit useful he could be aware about).

- Why did V take the contract from Mr. Blue Eyes in one of the endings? V knew he was behind the Peralezes' brainwashing. Even if V's goal was to wipe the whole Arasaka tower alone, it could be considered a punk move to do, not one necessarily leading to selling himself for prestige or whatnot.

Well, you know he is behind Peralez case, only if you saw him at the end of "Dream On" quest. But V do not. At least, V never mention this fact at all. Beside, the "contract" with Mr Blue Eyes have nothing to do with Arasaka nor the tower, but another heist, at the Crystal Palace.
From the dialogues in the Afterlife between both, V accept Mr Blue Eyes contract likely to find a cure.

 

[Tarille]

- V's relation with Delamain. For some reason, V and Delamain heavily supported each other despite having no reason. Why? I would even expect V to stay away from Del, because it witnessed the heist and could tell someone.

Delamain is not at liberty to go beyond his means.

Yes, he's an AI. But he's not rogue. He is confined to his programming.

This would include keeping the secrets of the Premium Clientele (Of which V is, as someone associated with the Exelsior Package, which is why V can just call up Del out of nowhere and get picked up AND V gets preferential treatment during Human Nature with being able to skip the queue and speak directly to the actual Delamain)

- Arasaka soul-killed Jackie in one of the outcomes of the heist. Why? Why do they care about a random merc? They had to come in very shortly to "harvest the soul" from the dying body.

2 reasons. Both the same as why they Soulkilled Johnny after his bombing.

1) To punish him with a "Fate worse than death"

2) To gain information. Things like "Who ordered the heist?" (Another corporation? Someone vying for power? A mole?), "How much does he (And by extention his sources) know about their infrastructure and secret programmes?", "Who was working with him?", "Does he and by extention the people he's working with know the truth about Saburo's death?"

I was asking if the state of cyber (technological advancement and its usage) did or did not kill the punk (personal space) in the game for you?

I'm not sure if technological advancement could ever really kill the "Punk".

Irregardless of tech, people are going to want to be who they want to be. (If anything, tech enhances this, by allowing people to change even more aspects of themselves to suit their desires. See: The Prime Time Players)

It would be more down to the overall writing that would harm the "Punk" elements, if it focused too much on other things.

 

[MartineDee]

I don't see how that can be too much or not enough "sci-fi".

I mean the tech. In big part it's pretty mundane in CP2077.

 

[WhiteYoghurt]

Why?

reasons

Right, I forgot about these.
Thanks for the clarification once again

 

[SigilFey]

I mean the tech. In big part it's pretty mundane in CP2077.

Oh, you're referring to just the sci-fi aesthetic? I kind of like it where it is. If anything, I might make it a little less.

I think the whole genre really leans into the contrast of organic vs. tech. The whole "body is profanum" thing. They've struck a good balance with old-world concrete and grime and new-world holograms and chrome. I think the world might benefit from city areas that have, like, no tech at all. Kind of like stepping into the absolute ruins of the present world. Even the old tech -- microwaves and washing machines and Dell PCs -- no longer work, and have been repurposed, somehow.

 

[Tarille]

I think the whole genre really leans into the contrast of organic vs. tech.

Not really. Not all media in the genre even utilizes cybernetics.

Quite a lot of stuff simply goes into the more futuristic side of things with holograms and robots.

Which is where the IP diverges from the genre as a whole. Quite a lot of stuff is pretty tame and outdated (Which is to be expected from an IP created in the 80's, where ideas of "Futuristic" were often quite different to what we have access to today), like even flashbacks to "2022" in Johnny's memories showcases a lot of 80's styling.

While the overall theme of the genre is "Future" with it being the technological aspects of sci-fi (Rather than aliens), with a heavy dose of theming in regards to chrome (As in the shiny metal finish, rather than cyberware as it's referred to in CP2077), neon lights and bright colours (Often contrasting the dystopian nature of the stories)

I think the world might benefit from city areas that have, like, no tech at all. Kind of like stepping into the absolute ruins of the present world.

It doesn't make much sense though.

Like, the entire thing for the IP is that tech and tech companies became the driving force of the world. As tech advances, everyday people incorporate it into their lives.

An example of this is how mobile phones went from being a luxury that only wealthy businessmen had access to, to what we have today where almost everyone above the age of 5 has a smartphone (To the point where having a standard landline is actually uncommon)

If there was to be a place with no tech, it would have to be outside a city. With some sort of reasoning behind them not having access to tech. With exception of maybe a Buddhist (Or other religious groups, like the Amish) controlled area where a community collectively eschewed technology.

That said, I think it would be cool if we saw an area that was a literal junkyard. Where all the garbage was dumped and where people reside that are truly down on their luck and can't live in society anymore (Things like ex-Cyberpsychos, people who are incompatible with the newest cyberware, people who were shunned due to mental handicaps etc).

Whereby they make do with combining some modern knowledge (Like, how to perform cyberware implantation surgery with ease)... But they do it with improper implants. Like replacing limbs with actual pieces of junk. Someone's eye replaced by literally grafting a security camera to their face. Technology revolving around combining junk into serviceable machines.

A place where they can explore the effect of the technology on people's lives, in a scenario where corpos are not involved at all (Besides maybe making some of the people there upset after being screwed over by a corpo, which could be how such a place ties into the story).