Do You Think Cyberpunk 2077 (as of now) is an Immersive Sim game?

+

Do You Think Cyberpunk 2077 (as of now) is an IMMERSIVE SIM game?

  • YES (post your reasons why)

    Votes: 28 17.5%
  • NO (your reasons & maybe how to improve it)

    Votes: 83 51.9%
  • It's complicated (post your reasons why & maybe how to improve it)

    Votes: 25 15.6%
  • Huh... What's even immersive sim?

    Votes: 24 15.0%

  • Total voters
    160
After the recent Pawel Sasko posts of the RETROSPECTIVE of CP2077 QUESTS, this got me really thinking the extents of their works & also game/level design team on how Cyberpunk 2077 can be considered as Immersive Sim game or not. I just wanna know what this forums community think about it & HOPEFULLY it will help the devs for further future development, IF THE DEVS ACTUALLY READ THIS THREAD LOL
 
It's complicated (which I voted), but I want to say NO, for one simple reason: No matter how much you immerse yourself into side quests and gigs, the actual world around you does not respond, change, or adapt to your actions. It always stays in a static time bubble where you're the only part moving. The WORLD is not immersive at all, your actions have no reactions, especially long term. I never feel like I am a part of the city, I just feel like the world is a hollywood backdrop and I'm just walking in front of massive green screens - where the pre-planned gigs and events are what post production cooks together. In other words, what actually has depth and quality, is outside of my own hands to influence. I can't control them, and the limited dialogue options always lead to the same core outcome.

So no, the game is actually the opposite of immersive. It feels like you're just an actor playing out an act that a producer has already planned out for you. You are not able to tell your own story, with the way the limited AI and world interaction system (or lack thereof) is set up in the game's current state.

This is what I so dearly hope will be overhauled in the future. Let NC become the interactive and soulful world that it deserves to be, and has the potential to live up to. It's the most vivid and beautifully designed open world I've ever seen, but it is also equally soulless once you step out of the pre-planned quests and events.


Suggestions for improvement:
1. Competent and alive AI. Yea, the thing we were actually promised back when. An example could be going in the direction of AC:Origins, where AI npcs actually have daily lives and goals they carry out, and are not just portrayed to fill out blank space in the open world (at least to a degree). I'd gladly take half the density, if that density had the collective IQ of more than 1.

2. Let our choises matter. In side quests, if we take the cheap routes in quests too often, let it have a consequence. Instead of just withholding out bonus reward for a job that wasn't well done, if it happens too frequently make it harder for us to secure similar jobs in the future. Give personal relations that are fluent, where we as players may have to take responsibility for our decisions down the road we chose to walk.

3. Allow us to interact with NPC/AI characters on a level beyond a simple auto-generated one-liner response. Let us have a conversation that is relevant to the situation/context of when/where/how we approach them. Perhaps even let us get a personal relation with some of them, let us help them out with some daily tasks they may be struggling with, etc. Or let us just buy a cute girl coffee and evolve her from "simple npc" to "side quest npc" and maybe even add the potential to get that character as a love interest or something. Of course this would have to be limited, but hey, in real life most people don't have 100s of friends anyways so it wouldn't be a problem to put such limitations on how many npc relations one could have. Etc.

4. Create more progressively generated open-world events such as heists, bank/corpo robberies, car chases, illegal street races, casino gambling, drug deals, etc. Things that aren't pre scripted, while also allowing for more complex immersion than the standard "X people shooting at Y people on Z street corner for the 100th time today". The diversity in events, and their progressive generation, is key to making a city feel alive and immersive. Take RUST for example, with a progressively generated map that has the same core building blocks, but is never structured quite the same way whenever you start on a new map. Events should be just like that, progressive, and pulling from a lot of variables to form more complex non-scripted scenarios with unique outcomes and interactions. Just like real life.

5. Allow us to play a bigger role in the faction system outside of quests and gigs. We have a background, and we have experience from quests and open-world encounters. We have "Street Cred". Let us use this to form deeper bonds with various organizations. Let us become a corpo associate if we want to, and get the opportunity to play in the big league and call our own shots.
Let us ally with a local street gang and rise to the top to challenge other gangs in an attempt to spread our influence in the street environment of NC.
Let us live out the NOMAD lifestyle to the fullest, taking a complete distance to NC and fight the regime that is trying to outlaw us.
And let all of this happen at a much more in-depth scale. Let us be able to take charge of an entire NOMAD settlement, appoint NPC roles, secure weaponry to arm your people, etc. As a Corpo, let us buy into massive Corpo buildinsg with penthouses and job certain industry specialisms such as weapons manufacturing, cyber enhancement, law enforcement, etc. And let this trickle into our in-game benefits as a character and the opportunities we have available to us. Let it influence who we can talk to, who we can make deals with, and who will try to oppose us. Not just oppose us on a random street corner, but instead in terms of hacking, stealing, fighting, outbidding, espionaging, where we can shop, which gigs are presented to us, prices of items in certain areas, etc. Everything is open for you to pick and chose from. In the end, what it offers is diversity, and something to grind for. The sacred replay value that is so important for big AAA titles like CP77.



Let me just create an imaginative scenario based on the suggestions above:
Walking around the world is a journey - I never know what to encounter. Sometimes my reputation catches up to me, and people in the crowd realize who I am and either take an offensive stance, while other times they come over to praise my work. This spreads ripples through the crowds depending on where I go.
One day I was approached by this npc girl, she had heard of some of my work and nervously asked if I had a minute. In a small alleyway, with a hesitant voice, she asked if it was true that I had hunted down and killed a Cyberpsycho. I replied yes, and not just one. She hinted a smile of relief. Apparently her brother had gotten himself into a bad spot with some shady people, and was being blackmailed by such a Cyberpsycho. She hadn't heard from her brother in days, and got nervous. The police apparently were too busy to look into the matter, and she was left with no options. She didn't have much to offer in return for me seeing to her brother's safety, except her gratitude, and the promise to spread a good word about me.
A good word was just what I needed right now, as a local street gang had been spreading rumors lately about some of my gigs that happened to cross their turfs a few times.
These gigs also had a tendency to get unnecessarily violent, which my fixer wasn't too happy about. In fact, she hadn't been providing me with new gigs in this area in a while, so spreading a positive word might help fix my reputation and get me back on the scene again.
Alright, that settles it then. I accepted the girl's offer, and went to check on things.
My first approach was to head back to my associate corporation's local HQ. The one with the great penthouse I had been scoping out for months. Always felt nice going back there, however this time with more urgent matter at hand. This associate corporation specializes in intel gathering, and since I am on good stanting with the higher ups, perhaps I can ask them for a favor and look into the location of this girl's brother.
However, before I could even reach the corpo building, fate would have it another way. Out of nowhere a gang of armed street punks came running out of a nearby building - guns blazing. At second glance I see the Arasaka nametag above one of the main entrances, realizing it was a biotech robbery. Some big cojones on those people going after an Arasaka facility in broad daylight. I'd better avoid a confrontation, in case they call in their backup that are surely waiting around nearby.
I already had a task set in motion, laying low right now served me better.

- - - In the end, the rest of the story can be up to the player's decisions along the way, but you get the overall idea. Let the world be like a fluid, flowing in whichever direction you lead it - instead of being solid like ice, where everything is decided and nothing can meaningfully adapt to your inputs.


Just my two cents (or maybe 2 dollars, as it ended up being quite a bit of storytelling and writing. Oh well, if you read this far, thanks for your time.)
 
Last edited:
After the recent Pawel Sasko posts of the RETROSPECTIVE of CP2077 QUESTS, this got me really thinking the extents of their works & also game/level design team on how Cyberpunk 2077 can be considered as Immersive Sim game or not. I just wanna know what this forums community think about it & HOPEFULLY it will help the devs for further future development, IF THE DEVS ACTUALLY READ THIS THREAD LOL

It's nearly an immersive sim game. The All Foods quest shows the potential, and there are a few other quests that are about half as immersive simmy as that one, plus a few random small quests that have alternative routes to beat; and some of the cut content suggests they had more of that in mind.

But it's all a bit half-assed. In fact, showing the All Foods quest as typical of the game, as they did in one of the trailers, was basically false advertising, as that's really the most intricate quest in that sense, pretty much the only quest (apart from, arguably, the MQ and SQs themselves) that's as rich in alternative paths as that. (I say "arguably" because although there seem to be alternative paths in the MQ and SQs, most of the apparent alternatives lead nowhere.)

I have no doubt that they intended the whole game to be more like All Foods at one time, but, you know, the (now denied) obvious is obvious.
 

Guest 3847602

Guest
It's complicated (which I voted), but I want to say NO, for one simple reason: No matter how much you immerse yourself into side quests and gigs, the actual world around you does not respond, change, or adapt to your actions. It always stays in a static time bubble where you're the only part moving. The WORLD is not immersive at all, your actions have no reactions, especially long term. I never feel like I am a part of the city, I just feel like the world is a hollywood backdrop and I'm just walking in front of massive green screens - where the pre-planned gigs and events are what post production cooks together. In other words, what actually has depth and quality, is outside of my own hands to influence. I can't control them, and the limited dialogue options always lead to the same core outcome.

So no, the game is actually the opposite of immersive. It feels like you're just an actor playing out an act that a producer has already planned out for you. You are not able to tell your own story, with the way the limited AI and world interaction system (or lack thereof) is set up in the game's current state.

This is what I so dearly hope will be overhauled in the future. Let NC become the interactive and soulful world that it deserves to be, and has the potential to live up to. It's the most vivid and beautifully designed open world I've ever seen, but it is also equally soulless once you step out of the pre-planned quests and events.
You're describing sandbox, not immersive sim. This game is obviously not a sandbox. Immersive sim = Deus Ex, System Shock, Thief, Dishonored, Prey, etc...
 
You're describing sandbox, not immersive sim. This game is obviously not a sandbox. Immersive sim = Deus Ex, System Shock, Thief, Dishonored, Prey, etc...

What he's talking about is reactivity, which is part of the immersive sim concept (i.e. ideally, the game world has something stored up as a reaction to whatever random probing of it you do; if the reaction goes beyond fluff and flavour, and it offers an alternative route to success, that's the immersive sim idea).

So for example, if you're trying to get into a complex, you chat up the guard and he tells you something about his life, that's reactivity; if the reactivity goes beyond that, and he inadvertently gives you a clue as to how to get into the building, that's immersive simmery.
 
Last edited:

Guest 3847602

Guest
What he's talking about is reactivity, which is part of the immersive sim concept (i.e. ideally, the game world has something stored up as a reaction to whatever random probing of it you do; if it goes beyond fluff and flavour, and the reaction offers an alternative route to success, then it's an immersive sim).
- "pre-planned gigs and events are what post production cooks together"
- "It feels like you're just an actor playing out an act that a producer has already planned out for you. You are not able to tell your own story, with the way the limited AI and world interaction system (or lack thereof) is set up in the game's current state."
- "it is also equally soulless once you step out of the pre-planned quests and events."

Immersive sims are not defined by letting you tell your own story, nor by the lack of predefined goals, lack of pre-planned quests or by how fun the game is for players who prefer to wander about aimlessly hoping to discover some randomly generated event.
They are defined by giving the players clear objectives and freedom to accomplish them without handholding and without restrictive level design.
 
Yes. Immersion aswell as humor or taste are subjective.

I have friends skipping intros, yawning when playing games like DEADSPACE or Dishonored "I dunno man It's just a game like tetris"

While I was swetting bullets playing DEADSPACE and wanted to live in Dunwall despite the plague.

Cyberpunk when I go along with what the game tries to do, not actively trying to break the illusion, I am as immersed as when I visit the zone in STALKER.

Night city with it's weather and daynight circle is amazing place to BE IN.
 
Last edited:

"DO YOU THINK CYBERPUNK 2077 (AS OF NOW) IS AN IMMERSIVE SIM GAME?"

For me, no. Not in the least. Perceive the game as just an excellent executed action packed game with loads of content.

Don't even perceive the game as an RPG. For that the lvl growth needs to be on par with doing all the content in the game, to reach max lvl all content needs to be done, and being high in lvl needs to be a requirement to reach the end.

A good SIM for me, would require having to do a lot of vertical progression, (like taking care of your health, your body, your hygiene, place to stay, transport, getting all the resources to achieve all that), to make horizontal progression.

All that needs to be animated by the player character, and the player character must always be visible on the screen, else it still wouldn't be able to fool my mind.
 
It certainly seems to lean more towards immersive sim than an RPG, but I voted ”no” still.

It doesn’t really come off as one to me. Rather just an action adventure with few stats.
Open world looter shooter. Not even with choice and consequences like Witcher 3.

It has an immersive sim approach for the side quests though, which imho is one of the very few forte of the game.

I also notice many people (not you) don't know what an immersive sim is, and that's because of the genre's name which is confusing to say the least. Guys, Dishonored is an immersive sim.
 
- "pre-planned gigs and events are what post production cooks together"
- "It feels like you're just an actor playing out an act that a producer has already planned out for you. You are not able to tell your own story, with the way the limited AI and world interaction system (or lack thereof) is set up in the game's current state."
- "it is also equally soulless once you step out of the pre-planned quests and events."

Immersive sims are not defined by letting you tell your own story, nor by the lack of predefined goals, lack of pre-planned quests or by how fun the game is for players who prefer to wander about aimlessly hoping to discover some randomly generated event.
They are defined by giving the players clear objectives and freedom to accomplish them without handholding and without restrictive level design.

"Telling your own story" comes from having multiple options and deciding which one to make use of (or seeking out options that weren't specifically handed to you by default). That is quintessential immersive sim. Like the example suggested by another user; a guard that you chitchat with who ends up giving you a lead, that is a way to find an alternative path to take that wasn't pre planned for you. It's a part of the story YOU chose to tell as a player. Your own actions led to this valuable piece of information, not a pre scripted encounter that did the work for you.

I know that some of the parts in my initial comment go a bit beyond this aspect, but inherently there is an element of sandbox in any immersive gameplay. Immersion comes from being able to put yourself into the actions of the character you play, and the world you play in. The more you can have fluid interactions with variable outcomes, the more immersive the gameplay will be overall. And as of writing, CP77 is very heavily scripted, with minimal immersion. But it DOES have the potential to be extremely immersive, with a few alterations/additions.
 
Last edited:
Based on the definition in https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImmersiveSim, I voted no. My +300hr of gameplay time attest to the fact that while I thoroughly enjoyed the game, it has a lot of problems.

simulate a large believable lived-in 3D space
=> there are too many bugs and immersion breaking moments for this condition to be fullfilled.

the players' avatar exists as an active physical entity
=> the impact of the player's choice on NC is minimal. Your reputation grows to maximum (50), but your environment barely registers this.

[the developers] combine clever game systems with advanced Video Game A.I.
=> the AI, as we all know, is practically non existent. No complaints on the gameplay mechanics though.

It's a great game, but an immersive sim, it is not.
 

Guest 3847602

Guest
having multiple options and deciding which one to make use of (or seeking out options that weren't specifically handed to you by default). That is quintessential immersive sim.
Yes, and this rule already applies to every every single gig in this game and some of the sidequests. As @Didacgomez said, it's the relatively linear design of main quests that prevents the game from being a full-on immersive sim (Gimme Danger being the best example of immersive sim quest design), not the lack of random events or things to do outside of quests.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
- "pre-planned gigs and events are what post production cooks together"
- "It feels like you're just an actor playing out an act that a producer has already planned out for you. You are not able to tell your own story, with the way the limited AI and world interaction system (or lack thereof) is set up in the game's current state."
- "it is also equally soulless once you step out of the pre-planned quests and events."

Immersive sims are not defined by letting you tell your own story, nor by the lack of predefined goals, lack of pre-planned quests or by how fun the game is for players who prefer to wander about aimlessly hoping to discover some randomly generated event.
They are defined by giving the players clear objectives and freedom to accomplish them without handholding and without restrictive level design.

From the wiki (which is how I've always understood it, since the Looking Glass days):-

"Its core, defining trait is the use of simulated systems that respond to a variety of player actions which, combined with a comparatively broad array of player abilities, allow the game to support varied and creative solutions to problems, as well as emergent gameplay beyond what has been explicitly designed by the developer."

"Immersive sims typically task the player to make their way through levels and complete missions, but do not enforce the means by which the player does this."

The freedom to accomplish tasks which you're talking about is achieved precisely by means of world reactivity ("simulated systems that respond to a variety of player actions"). So the guy's comment about reactivity is quite on-point.

And it's also true that if the game is making you feel like "an actor playing out an act that the producer has already planned for you," that is not an immersive sim. The fact that world has "limited AI and world interaction system (or lack thereof)" (which is mostly true, bar a few good examples here and there) is also against the idea of the immersive sim.

As I said in my post, the game does have flashes of being an immersive sim, even some very good examples, but on the whole it's not consistently an immersive sim.
 
You're describing sandbox, not immersive sim. This game is obviously not a sandbox. Immersive sim = Deus Ex, System Shock, Thief, Dishonored, Prey, etc...
I get a bit lost on these genres names but this hollywood set he describes I feel in CP like in no other game. And I don't think it's because it's not a sandbox. It's because the Nomad in Kabuki that tells us where hanna amil is at stays there until the end of the game, same with many spaces in town after their content ends, same with post romances,... it's because events even if they are fixed they don't correlate with our actions (we kill Jotaro and a month later find Jotaro gangoons following his orders somewhere...). For me it's because the game is incredibly incomplete in many areas. I'm not talking about cut features or the typically apointed missing content. I mean these kind of events not updating because the new version isn't there, object discriptions outdated, even very little lore compared to what I was expecting at least. The journal information is very little for example. If we think about TW3 and compare amount of content in dialogues all around (including alterations based on player choices), books, bestiary and the whole journal we see that however more complicated in technical terms as CP may be, many areas of the game feel shortened.
And this to say that the curent iteration of the game feels like it couldn't be completed to include some random encounters, repeatable side activities, etc. It's not like the game would become something else entirely if it had some random generated ambushes, ability to eat with animation, car chases etc.
Is RDR2 a sandbox? Because it has a main story and it has oprn world events that happen on specific sites. But it also has random encounters etc...
 
Top Bottom