Do You Think Cyberpunk 2077 (as of now) is an Immersive Sim game?

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Do You Think Cyberpunk 2077 (as of now) is an IMMERSIVE SIM game?

  • YES (post your reasons why)

    Votes: 28 17.5%
  • NO (your reasons & maybe how to improve it)

    Votes: 83 51.9%
  • It's complicated (post your reasons why & maybe how to improve it)

    Votes: 25 15.6%
  • Huh... What's even immersive sim?

    Votes: 24 15.0%

  • Total voters
    160
1. Actually shower instead of just standing in the water with your hands against the wall.
2. Actually use the toilet instead of flushing it for no reason.
3. Maybe add a game mode that adds a hunger, thirst, and fatigue needs to maintain. Give us an actual reason to drink a can of spunky monkey, eat that XXL Burrito Rosado, or actually use V's apartment to sleep. If having fatigue requiring you to sleep for a few hours, maybe even add the option to pay for a motel room.
4. Option to increase/decrease the volume of the TV in V's apartment.
5. If our inventory menu shows V without underwear equipped, let V walk around without underwear. Makes no sense to see V not wearing any clothing at all, but suddenly V is wearing magically appearing underwear when you leave the menu.
Saying Cyberpunk 2077 is Immersive Sim game is kind of a joke indeed the game being full of immersion breaking stuff, a world that does not react to you in any significant way and its just a pretty shallow front with basically non-existant interaction with the world around.

The immersion breaking follows you anywhere.

You shower dressed with a jacket on.

Panam showers dressed.

Stripers in the windows just look normal NPCS with cloths on.

You see clones all the time.

NPCS, cars vanish, spawn, despawn before your eyes.

The AI its pretty dumb often breaking the immersion and ruining that sense your experience a believable world.
They don’t take any notice of you no matter what your "street cred" is.

Police teleport all around you like in Star Trek.

You cannot sit down basically nowhere and enjoy the atmosphere of the game.

Not to mention the myriad of bugs that are still present NPCS leaning inside walls, NPCS pulling cans and cokes out of their bottoms, NPCS playing guitar or arcade games without a guitar or a station and so on.

The physics of the world is also pretty non-existent. Rain is invisible only seeing drops on windows cars.

The world is basically empty like the pandemic hit the cyberpunk universe also.

The things are so many is hard to remember all and write them down.


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panam.png


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clones.png

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Panam showering fully clothed must be a bug or some censorship setting. Don't wan't to spoil anything but the few variants of this ending I got, none had her looking like that.

On other news, i don't think the number of features define how good of a sim game is. IMHO the presentation of any available features and channeling user in whatever experience the game wants to simulate is more important. If you e.g. look at MS Flight sim, you won't be able to walk around airport or drive baggage tractor, because that's not the kind of experience the game tries to simulate. Or Firewatch - there are almost no sandbox mechanisms, but it perfectly delivers the mood of being alone in forest.
 
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You shower dressed with a jacket on.
If it helps you with this one small matter, you can undress before taking a shower; or if you wish, you can shower with clothes on.

;)

At least that part isn’t really at fault.

What might be, is that wearing soaking wet clothes does not matter at all.
 
No, its not even close to being an immersive sim game. Its closer to a Far Cry game than anything else. :whistle:

The game needs to feel more "alive". The city looks good, but needs to have things going on, places to go/get into that are outside of missions/gigs.

Gangs, and cops, are static, and the "events" that happen are all paused until the player arrives, its more like a stage and less like a living world.

I know its fun to rip on Bethesda, but in FO4 you had roving bandits and super mutants (later Brotherhood members too), and they would often fight one another or stumble upon camps resulting in a fight. The player can hear these fights from a distance, and they can go have a look. They might get there mid fight or the aftermath. This makes the world feel alive somewhat.

NC would feel more alive if things like this happened in the game. Yup there are a couple of places where cops fight gang members, but its the same spot every time, and its the same each time too lol. But if gangs/cops patrolled the city and bumped into one another, that would look pretty cool.

And where the heck is MAXTAC?? I want to see these guys deploying around NC like in the into.

One last thing, the map! It is littered with icons. Let the player discover these things naturally perhaps?? Keep the markers for main/side missions/gigs sure, but the other stuff, hide it., let the players find it as they explore NC.
 

Guest 3847602

Guest
The game needs to feel more "alive". The city looks good, but needs to have things going on, places to go/get into that are outside of missions/gigs.

Gangs, and cops, are static, and the "events" that happen are all paused until the player arrives, its more like a stage and less like a living world.

I know its fun to rip on Bethesda, but in FO4 you had roving bandits and super mutants (later Brotherhood members too), and they would often fight one another or stumble upon camps resulting in a fight. The player can hear these fights from a distance, and they can go have a look. They might get there mid fight or the aftermath. This makes the world feel alive somewhat.

NC would feel more alive if things like this happened in the game. Yup there are a couple of places where cops fight gang members, but its the same spot every time, and its the same each time too lol. But if gangs/cops patrolled the city and bumped into one another, that would look pretty cool.

And where the heck is MAXTAC?? I want to see these guys deploying around NC like in the into.
Nope, the only "Bethesda games" that are immersive sims are Dishonored 1 and 2 and Prey. Nothing else.
Making the game in accordance with these principles would not make Cyberpunk one inch closer to being an immersive sim.
 
If it helps you with this one small matter, you can undress before taking a shower; or if you wish, you can shower with clothes on.

;)

At least that part isn’t really at fault.

What might be, is that wearing soaking wet clothes does not matter at all.
Off course I can remove all clothes before going in the shower in a believable immersive way. Aaa... wait a minute u cant.
 
You can’t anymore?

That’s… peculiar.
Yes you can obviously :)
Except underwears... And keeping underwears was probably not intended at first by CDPR (like to remove some "junk" items soon after the release)
For Panam (or Judy), I did this ending few times and I never saw them with clothes in the shower... Since day one and in any version...
--------
But yeah I suppose that it could be more "sim" and way more immersive that the game automatically (and magically) remove and put back your clothes when enter and get out the shower, for sure :)
 
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I find myself playing Cyberpunk as I was Deus Ex, as I was Thief, as I was System Shock, as I was S.T.A.L.K.E.R., as I was Arx Fatalis and even perhaps Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.

I firmly believe Cyberpunk has at it's core an immersive sim heart with set pieces at certain points to emphasize story climaxes.

Most of the explanations nor grievances extrapolated in the posts above have anything to do with the immersive sim subgenre.

But it's fun to read.
 
Nope. Here's my story I came here to share.

Game came out, everyone was mad but I was OK with it. I've played a lot of alphas and betas, this had promise. I enjoyed it and figured I'd come back later.

Fast forward to now, I haven't been touching it. I log in and experience bugs shorting me several thousand credits.
I look into mods and get a virus from a major mod site trying, reformat computer.
Dive back in with the base game and shrug off the credit losing bug to play. I encounter several objects I can't interact with, irrational police agro, and quests that glitch out and don't display objectives on the map then fail.

They do not seem to have kept staff on to take this from beta to playable. I understand now why some nations sued so people would have the right to a refund.
 
You can’t anymore?

That’s… peculiar.
I must be living in a paralel universe where people în real life shower with underwear on. Here in this paralel universe it must be very immersive to see V shower with underwear on.
Really peculiar indeed.
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I find myself playing Cyberpunk as I was Deus Ex, as I was Thief, as I was System Shock, as I was S.T.A.L.K.E.R., as I was Arx Fatalis and even perhaps Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.

I firmly believe Cyberpunk has at it's core an immersive sim heart with set pieces at certain points to emphasize story climaxes.

Most of the explanations nor grievances extrapolated in the posts above have anything to do with the immersive sim subgenre.

But it's fun to read.
Having some Immersive Sim elements does not make the game Immersive Sim.

Gameplay developer says the game is not really an immersive sim for was not intended as such:

“Sasko says. “We’ve been discussing this in the company a lot, and I don't think that Cyberpunk is an immersive sim, to the fullest potential. Because we’re not really trying to make an immersive sim.”

https://www.vg247.com/cyberpunk-2077-immersive-sim-rpg

Warren Spector, part of Looking Glass Studios, said that immersive sims create the feeling that "you are there, nothing stands between you and belief that you're in an alternate world"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersive_sim



Off course this is not the case for Cyberpunk 2077 which suspend your belief so frequently.

For a game to be considered an immersive sim the AI needs to be at least consistent. In Cyberpunk 2077 its ridiculous. NPC don’t take any notice of you no matter what your "street cred" is. Police AI is a really contrary to what immersive sim entails behaving in a way that totally breaks immersion and suspend belief very fast. Funny how a Rockstar game like Rdr2 one of the best example of a believable immersive world where everything interacts with you.

"The AI is so braindead. It was built as an action shooter game...no matter how much they say that there are "multiple route" possible. The AI only responds to shooting. I mean, you can walk right in front of an enemy, they will not investigate." ... see video below

20 NPC AI all crouching when a gunshot its heard near in front of you its ridiculous and suspend belief pretty fast.

Looter shooter mechanics with tier, color coded and legendary nonsense(legendary crowbar which just seems magical) that do not make logical sense and definitely break immersion and suspend belief. When you gameficate the game in this style you break immersion, you start to think the world cannot possible be real. Its not just weapons its everything, your cyberware, mods, scopes, the programs you plug into your cyber computer.

The bullet sponges enemies also allowing for tons of headshots do not make sense. STALKER(on master) had on shot (headshot) killing enemies.

Deus EX Revolution the same. Gameplay that made sense. If you shoot in the head where is no armor or very low protection you one tap or double tap enemies. Piercing bullets which pierce armor and make more damage.

It lacks simulated physics(the physics is non existent with many older games that were not intended as IS have far better simulated physics) emergent gameplay, and a lack of emphasis on player consequence.

That choices made in the game are barely reflected in the world.

Emergent gameplay example: STALKER’s case resulted in an AI system, A-Life, that allowed NPC’s to roam and make a range of their own decisions, plan their own routes based on wants and needs.

Dishonored introduced a "chaos" system that adjusted how enemy guards would behave due to how much violence and disturbance a player had done earlier in the game, which discouraged players from trying different tactics to avoid making future encounters harder. “

Your influence in the world is practically non existent in Cyberpunk 2077.

In real immersive sims you really feel like having free will; feeling like your choices really branching in tons of multiple parallel realities, that the world can go on (things happen in the world without u being present).

In cyberpunk 2077 belief in free will is suspended so often you feel the predestination in your bones as u follow the path ahead and the story.

The game is actually an open world GTA like game(you drive around a car and do missions that are spaced around a map, there are some story mission, some pick up missions), looter shooter(color coded, billions of loots items) with dialogue choices and some weak RPG and IS elements.


The problem with Cyberpunk is that it tries to be everything so it manages to not excel at anything.
 
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no, Cyberpunk is a absolutely bad game for that team who created Witcher, the team that made product like Witcher can't create so utopic and anti-human game like Cyberpunk
 

Right, so how many elements of what you are claiming a game needs to have to become an immersive sim (which is a subgenre of the pseudo action RPG genre) does the game called System Shock (one of the first FPS emergent sim like gameplay in videogames) have?

I'll wait...

In the meantime, here's a widely accepted definition of the term:

''An immersive sim (simulation) is a video game genre that emphasizes player choice. Its core, defining trait is the use of simulated systems that respond to a variety of player actions which, combined with a comparatively broad array of player abilities, allow the game to support varied and creative solutions to problems, as well as emergent gameplay beyond what has been explicitly designed by the developer.[1] This definition is not to be confused with game systems which allow player choice in a confined sense or systems which allow players to easily escape consequences of their choices.''

Cyberpunk, whether or not it's creators intended (I highly doubt it was accidental and not deliberate), is chock full of these scenarios.

Every mission in the game, every, gig, side quest and interactions have systems like the ones described above that interact with each other to create the sort of emergent gameplay exemplified in games like Deus Ex, Thief et.al. which ultimately ends up in providing a unique experience depending on your play style and the way you interact with these systems.

Which is what immersive sim is, it's not how immersed you personally feel, it's how the systems create immersion through gameplay, like sneaking and hacking compared to guns blazing and slow-mo or katana swift kills.

How you chose to complete the objectives and interact with the carefully orchestrated arenas for such gameplay to take place in.

Have a read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersive_sim
 
It's most probably a bug, but even if it isn't, shit happens...
It's mainly because the dialogue line is trigger when you come close (it's "often" if not always the case in all quests).
But the Kerensikov Cyberware doesn't "start" before the optic reboot effect is finished. So even if the guard "speak" and "look you", you can do everything in front of him without problem as long as the Optical Reboot effect is active (like aim this guy with your gun without alert him).

And anyway, if I'm right, in this particular case, there is no way to open this door by yourself... You can enter by this door only if you are Corpo and had "heard" this dude with Goro before.

Some example who have the same "problem" :
The Animal at the entrance of the parking during "I fough the law".
The Animal at the entrance where you have to fight RHINO.
The Valentino in front of the back door of the morgue (Gig: Jeopardy).
The Valentino who watches the stairs in the bar (Gig: Fifth Column).
 
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I must be living in a paralel universe where people în real life shower with underwear on. Here in this paralel universe it must be very immersive to see V shower with underwear on.
I know it would be fun to play a helicopter captain in the shower in a videogame, but this is the sort of complaint even* I find a bit petty.
(*Considering my history and attitude on these boards).

Buuut, people find fun in many places. I'd like to have the athletics skill govern the characters balance (tripping while running) and a great many other things some people here usually find odd, other people would be happy with visual exposition in a showersession. It's all fair, I suppose.
 
It's most probably a bug, but even if it isn't, shit happens... even in better games than CP2077:

Seriously were gonna compare limitations because the technology was old vs incompetence.
How is that fair comparison?!:facepalm:
The AI is dumb all through the game encounters.
The Alternative gameplay sneak, hack is mostly irrelevant and useless.


Right, so how many elements of what you are claiming a game needs to have to become an immersive sim (which is a subgenre of the pseudo action RPG genre) does the game called System Shock (one of the first FPS emergent sim like gameplay in videogames) have?

I'll wait...

In the meantime, here's a widely accepted definition of the term:

''An immersive sim (simulation) is a video game genre that emphasizes player choice. Its core, defining trait is the use of simulated systems that respond to a variety of player actions which, combined with a comparatively broad array of player abilities, allow the game to support varied and creative solutions to problems, as well as emergent gameplay beyond what has been explicitly designed by the developer.[1] This definition is not to be confused with game systems which allow player choice in a confined sense or systems which allow players to easily escape consequences of their choices.''

Cyberpunk, whether or not it's creators intended (I highly doubt it was accidental and not deliberate), is chock full of these scenarios.

Every mission in the game, every, gig, side quest and interactions have systems like the ones described above that interact with each other to create the sort of emergent gameplay exemplified in games like Deus Ex, Thief et.al. which ultimately ends up in providing a unique experience depending on your play style and the way you interact with these systems.

Which is what immersive sim is, it's not how immersed you personally feel, it's how the systems create immersion through gameplay, like sneaking and hacking compared to guns blazing and slow-mo or katana swift kills.

How you chose to complete the objectives and interact with the carefully orchestrated arenas for such gameplay to take place in.

Have a read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersive_sim
It says clearly: "Warren Spector, part of Looking Glass Studios, said that immersive sims create the feeling that "you are there, nothing stands between you and belief that you're in an alternate world"

Cyberpunk 2077 does not create this belief with its magical billions of color coded, tiered system, bad physics, tons of underdeveloped system like AI, interaction with the world, weird stuff that suspend belief like dressed strippers, showering dressed, clones everywhere, empty future dystopian city. You could not possible believe such world is possible.




"it's how the systems create immersion through gameplay, like sneaking and hacking compared to guns blazing and slow-mo or katana swift kills."

You can do this in Far Cry 5 too.

"Go long range​

One of the better ways to go fully undetected is to snipe outpost guards from a distance before getting up close and personal—if you get in close at all. Most guards are visible enough to be picked off several dozen feet from the perimeter. Those that aren’t can, of course, be taken down from behind. As a general rule you should try to keep a guard or enemy’s back towards you. When choosing a stealth weapon, I suggest going with a bow. What it lacks in range, it makes up for in stealth. Be sure to fully upgrade before heading out (plus stock all your arrows, and upgrade your quiver in the Perks menu, if you can).


Use your herbs​

One immensely helpful booster is Ultimate Hunter, a crafted substance made in the weapons menu that will “automatically tag all the animals and enemies in your sight and make predators flee.” It’s temporary, and you can only hold three at a time, but that should be enough to get a good head start on any outpost, and it will help you hold your concentration and hide your position by ensuring hostile animals will keep their distance. Put it together with two Prairie Fire, two Mustard, and two Jimson Weed. Pro tip: when it tags the guards in an outpost, point your long range weapon at each of them so they’ll still be tagged once Ultimate Hunter wears off.


Hide the bodies​

If you want to keep your cover for as long as possible, you’ll need to either hide the bodies of the guards you kill, or time your kills such that they won’t be immediately discovered by other guards doing their sweeps around the property. Study the guards’ paths carefully until you’ve memorized the pattern, then make your move. It won’t work with every guard, because some are clustered with others. But that is why your next move is to…


Draw out your targets​


One classic, safe way to force a target out of a comfy defensive position is to throw a rock to get their attention and then sneak up on them from behind as they walk towards the sound. However, there are other disruptions you can cause that will achieve the same effect, and maybe even take a guard or two down in the process. It’s a bit like herding sheep. Try causing an explosion on the opposite side of the outpost with an exploding or fire arrow, or just shoot a regular arrow in the general direction you want them to move. Killing a guard with a throwing knife or arrow in full view of another guard can also get them to move their spot, as they will then rush toward the body. Or you can…


Let the animals do the work​


There’s no shame in sitting back and letting a bear or cougar pick off some of your enemies for you. It’s a great way to reduce their numbers without drawing attention to your position (though beware, guards can detect sometimes where an item was thrown from). It will also distract the guards enough that you can kill a few more in the chaos before they catch on. Just be sure to stock up on bait before you head out—only passive animals like Pronghorn will provide bait meat.


Make an escape plan​


Always know your outs. Inevitably there are going to be environmental obstacles that you’ll need to navigate around in a moment of panic. Familiarize yourself with the surrounding area: where are the cliffs? Are there pools of water or hot springs nearby? Where are the thickest trees to hide behind? Scout the place beforehand and do a few circles around the camp to make sure you know where you’re going.


Keep moving​


You should station yourself reasonably far outside the outpost so as not to be seen, but not so far that you’re out of range with your bow or sniper rifle (the bow will draw much less attention). When you make a kill from a distance, start moving in the opposite direction of any enemies who rush over to the body; if they go left, make your way right, passing through cover spots. Do not play with the enemy’s detection system; if the heat starts to rise, start moving immediately, establish distance, and find cover.


Get in close for the tough guys​

For the heavier guards with superior armor or weapons, a single shot to the head isn’t going to cut it—and the more shots or arrows you have to fire, the more attention you’ll draw to your position. First eliminate all the single-shot guards, so they’re all out of the way. Then use Takedown on the harder ones from behind. Also, remember to upgrade your Takedown skill to Takedown Mastery so you can perform chain Takedowns (Death From Above, Ledge and Cover Takedowns are all unlocked by default in Far Cry 5).



Watch the road​

Another easy way to ruin a perfectly good undetected outpost run is to not pay attention to what’s happening up on the main drag. There’s almost always a road nearby, or a body of water, which means you’re vulnerable. If a patrolling group of guards wanders nearby and spots you, the guards from the outpost can and will join in, which will totally blow your cover. The same goes for airplanes, so stay under the cover of trees and bushes as often as you can.


Kill the sniper first​

Once you’ve gotten in close to an outpost and scouted it for a good sniping spot, find their sniper. There’s always at least one, and usually they’re at the highest point. Always kill the sniper at the highest point first. They can see almost everything in the outpost, and will alert the other guards the minute you kill one of their own. Take him out first and you’re way less likely to get caught.


Holly Green is the assistant editor of Paste Games and a reporter and semiprofessional photographer. She is also the author of Fry Scores: An Unofficial Guide To Video Game Grub. You can find her work at Gamasutra, Polygon, Unwinnable, and other videogame news publications."


Is Far Cry 5 immersive sim?
 
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Guest 3847602

Guest
Seriously were gonna compare limitations because the technology was old vs incompetence.
It's got nothing to do with the old tech. Developers of DE simply didn't expect the players to think outside the box on this occasion and use speed enhancement. Alternative way of reaching Tracer Tong doesn't exist even though game's system allows for it. This same method works elsewhere, but not here. It's an oversight. It happens.
The Alternative gameplay sneak, hack is mostly irrelevant and useless.
Sneaking and hacking is useful for roleplaying purpose. Fixers will comment on whether you've completed the quest using stealth or not. On whether you've killed the guards or not. Some targets you can persuade only if you've used stealth and didn't kill their men.
Works the same in DE.
 
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It's got nothing to do with the old tech. Developers of DE simply didn't expect the players to think outside the box on this occasion and use speed enhancement. Alternative way of reaching Tracer Tong doesn't exist even though game's system allows for it. This same method works elsewhere, but not here. It's an oversight. It happens.

Sneaking and hacking is useful for roleplaying purpose. Fixers will comment on whether you've completed the quest using stealth or not. On whether you've killed the guards or not. Some targets you can persuade only if you've used stealth and didn't kill their men.
Works the same in DE.
Again the argument is not about whether there are Immersive Sim genre elements in the Cyberpunk 2077 but whether the game overall can be classified as Immersive Sim as a whole game like Deus EX Revolution is for example.
By the same logic Far Cry 5 is Immersive Sim game.
 
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