Do You Think Cyberpunk 2077 (as of now) is an Immersive Sim game?

[exxxed]

I think the trouble here is the use of the words.

Simulations, by very clear and direct definition, are games that attempt to represent real-world actuality as closely as possible. Hence, a combat simulation would not involve "hit points" or "armor class". Health would be guaged by the lethality of the weapon being used resulting in a single bullet most often disabling or neutralizing a target, and the player would have to take into account things like muzzle velocity of a rifle, bullet drop, and coriolis effect over longer distances. Flight simulations do not work based on "left/right/up/down", "afterburner boost", and "waiting for missles to reload". The player is responsible for controlling individual flight surfaces, managing fuel levels, and many modern combat engagements will be won or lost before visual contact is even established.

That's what "simulation" means. Yes, it's perfectly possible for games to have only lite sim elements coupled with purely fantastical game mechanics, and most games will fall into this category. But, by the definition of the word, any game that describes itself as a "simulation" will be focused on handling things with an extreme level of practical realism.

Yes in the grand scheme of things, or simulation in this case can be referred to specific encounters, simulating a scenario, which is what the word simulation in immersive sim stands for.

And I very much think it applies to cyberpunk's level designs and encounter designs to various degrees which allows one to experiment with the game akin to as they would have in Deus Ex or all the other Immersive Sims across the board.

Yes it's not as in depth as games solely focusing on the philosophy alone, of course not, but I'd classify it as one regardless, because as a basis for their level designs and encounter designs it definitely has the Immersive Sim chops, a hundred percent.

The only way one misses it is if they're focusing on min-maxing the stats by any means necessary disregarding all the intricacies of the level design and encounter design in the process and complaining how shallow it was because you can knock someone unconscious and shoot them for double XP.

Sorry, but that doesn't invalidated everything else it achieves.

 

[CS554]

Yes in the grand scheme of things, or simulation in this case can be referred to specific encounters, simulating a scenario, which is what the word simulation in immersive sim stands for.

Yes, simulation in real life, what's it used for one application is weather forecasts. Based on forecast we can make informed decision if we take an umbrella with us or not, but that doesn't mean we are interacting with the weather. We have no way to influence weather, only decide our own action according to forecast. Observation.

Observing human behavior enabled via fantasy element, creature or so, Moby Dick by Herman Melville is another classic example. To say games couldn't nor shouldn't have that aspect would IMO be rather odd conclusion. Possibility to interact and observe can build towards understanding of several things in CP 2077 we get this cross section of that society and that's somewhere there in our heads even if we are more or less conscious about it. Why are we willing to suspend our disbelief, be that fantasy creature, or mantis blades or whatever, is because we can for example realize something through NPC's or environmental story telling.

But this is sort of thing, I'm not interested about developing games and I think I leave this topic now.

 

[Tree_Fox]

In all honestly it has the potential, but it’s not there yet. Not even close. The ambient AI needs work, buildings need to be opened up, characters need to be expanded on, a certain montage needs to be removed and turned into gameplay…

maybe when CDPR releases the final DLC, whatever that entails, we’ll be close enough.

but as it stands, no way. Not even close to what I’d consider an immersive sim.

 

[CyberBobber]

Night City 2077 - Johnny Silverhand. Thats where I stand.

 

[Dr_Sinister420]

CP77 is neither a sim nor a sandbox. Outside of NCPD Scanners, Gigs, Cyberpsycho's, side missions and main missions, all of which come to an end, there is nothing in Night City that allows the player to deviate from any of the missions. Can't go to a bar just to play pool. Can't even actually order food that you would eat at a table at a restaurant. CP77 was never described as being anything but a first person action RPG. To be a sandbox the player would need to be able to do things such as grow a garden. The NCPD scanners and gigs could have been the one thing that would make V feel like an actual Edgerunner and gave it a bit of sandbox feel.

In order for CP77 to have been closer to a sim, it would have needed actual roles from the tabletop game and better implementation of skills. Being able to create a true Netrunner or Solo would have been a blast. Jacking into the net and roaming around cyberspace. Also if they added humanity which determines how much cyberware you can have installed would have helped in making CP77 more sim like.

 

[exxxed]

CP77 is neither a sim nor a sandbox. Outside of NCPD Scanners, Gigs, Cyberpsycho's, side missions and main missions, all of which come to an end, there is nothing in Night City that allows the player to deviate from any of the missions. Can't go to a bar just to play pool. Can't even actually order food that you would eat at a table at a restaurant. CP77 was never described as being anything but a first person action RPG. To be a sandbox the player would need to be able to do things such as grow a garden. The NCPD scanners and gigs could have been the one thing that would make V feel like an actual Edgerunner and gave it a bit of sandbox feel.

In order for CP77 to have been closer to a sim, it would have needed actual roles from the tabletop game and better implementation of skills. Being able to create a true Netrunner or Solo would have been a blast. Jacking into the net and roaming around cyberspace. Also if they added humanity which determines how much cyberware you can have installed would have helped in making CP77 more sim like.

Here's the definition:

''An immersive sim (simulation) is a video game genre that emphasizes player choice. Its core, defining trait is the use of simulated systems that respond to a variety of player actions which, combined with a comparatively broad array of player abilities, allow the game to support varied and creative solutions to problems, as well as emergent gameplay beyond what has been explicitly designed by the developer.[1] This definition is not to be confused with game systems which allow player choice in a confined sense or systems which allow players to easily escape consequences of their choices.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersive_sim

 

[Didacgomez]

I'm starting to think we should do something with that naming, like soulslike and metroidvania. SystemShocklike/DeusExlike/Thieflike/Ultima Underworldlike

 

[Guest 3847602]

I'm starting to think we should do something with that naming, like soulslike and metroidvania. SystemShocklike/DeusExlike/Thieflike/Ultima Underworldlike

It's doable, but why? For all the people who don't know what the term "immersive sim" means?
How should we deal with toddlers who think GTA5 and RDR2 are role-playing games? To call actual RPGs: "baldursgatelike", "planescapetormentlike", "classicfalloutlike" or "icewinddalelike"?

 

[Didacgomez]

How should we deal with toddlers who think GTA5 and RDR2 are role-playing games?

Since "what is a RPG" can be a long discussion if we need to do with examples (immersive sims so far seem more "template" based), we can do a notRDRGTAlike? It doesn´t clarify what is a RPG, but at least we get rid of some. Even the people that defined "roguelike" with the Berlin interpretation are probably screaming in silence (roguelike-lite^n) after all the thoughts that they put in that definition.

 

[BigWezz69]

How should we deal with toddlers who think GTA5 and RDR2 are role-playing games?

"Toddlers" .. wtf?

 

[Mobster100]

After the recent Pawel Sasko posts of the RETROSPECTIVE of CP2077 QUESTS, this got me really thinking the extents of their works & also game/level design team on how Cyberpunk 2077 can be considered as Immersive Sim game or not. I just wanna know what this forums community think about it & HOPEFULLY it will help the devs for further future development, IF THE DEVS ACTUALLY READ THIS THREAD LOL

Immersive sim, is difficult to categorize I think, because I guess people have different takes on that.

But from how I understand the term, I would say that some parts of the game really feels like this.

To mention those that to me boosted this feeling:

- People calling you on the phone or sending you SMS's at random times and obviously scripted times, I think this did a lot in terms of giving you a feeling that the world was alive and the other characters were doing stuff while you were doing your things. Sure it could have been implemented better with a call back button etc.

- The stuff with Jackie felt really cool as well, that not all the missions were simply go here shoot that etc. But that you had to do some more relaxed story things, like going to visit Vic etc. Something they did with Jack and Vs relationship, given how little time he actually have in the game really worked.

- To some degree just driving around NC added to this as well, especially in the beginning, when you could see how the city changed depending on area. That the city layout were as you would expect from a city, with stairs going over each other and not always in the most convenient way.

- I like the idea of the apartment, but unfortunately it was not utilized as well as it could.

- Interacting with the main characters was cool.

Things that broke it for me and suggestions:

- The monster camps. In the beginning when you first saw them it was ok. But later it really reminded me of MMO camps.

- The extremely poor AI on police and normal NPCs, including traffic.

- That food, drinking and even to some degree romance and one night stances weren't better integrated into the game. For instance giving different buffs for relationships, one night stance or whatever.

Having to probably eat and drink at one of the countless shops with animations. I don't like the 30s - 60s food/drink buff thing that games do, its really annoying. I would have preferred buffs to last much longer, maybe 6 - 8 hours in game time, maybe less for drinks. But having to browse through 30 different food/drink items doesn't work for me. Getting a debuff if you didn't eat/drink etc.

- Don't know if its part of the CP universe, but I think it would have been cool if you should fill gas on your car, could take it to a paint shop, get it repaired and upgraded at a mechanic. And if you completely destroy it order to get it towed etc. This would add some cool interaction to the world I think.

- To just throw it all under one point, the almost complete lack of interaction with the game world. I think this could have been much better. Like funny minigames at the bars, either games were you could play for money, dating games, dance competitions, dart, billiard, cards or maybe a place where you could get information for certain quests by manipulating people, getting clues for special items or implants you could find etc. But something that integrate them into the game and give them purpose.

- The almost complete lack of choice matters, this was probably the worse.

- Hardly any skills for none combat stuff or lack of "social" skills.

- The very poor integration of lifepath.

- That fixers just magically call you whenever you enter their area or they "accidentally" know when you are at one of their quest points. And in general I think there is a bit to much hand holding. NC is such a cool place which makes you want to go explore and just experience the city. But being made aware or told where almost everything is and you just running from point A to B to solve them, I think could have been done better, by simply letting player discover them for themselves. And would add more replayability.

- The dialog system is horrible, in regards to the color system, which almost completely remove all excitement in dialogs, because you know which you can say without any issues and which will push the story. This breaks immersion a lot and makes you far less interested in what they are saying, so that was a real shame. They should simply have kept them all one color and randomized the answers, again for more replayability and would make wonders if choice actually mattered. So this is also my biggest issue.

- That gangs seems completely unaware or not caring about you killing them in the 100s, and that there in general is no interaction with them.

- The extremely poor use of BDs, its such a cool concept but very badly utilized.

- That you can't change your body in a CP setting, where you are constantly reminded of people doing this and style matters etc.

Conclusion
Some parts really work when it comes to immersive sim/gameplay, but unfortunately there are also to many things that ruins it or are simply missing. Even if immersive gameplay weren't their intention, I still think a lot of these things should have been there regardless.

 

[Dr_Sinister420]

Here's the definition:

''An immersive sim (simulation) is a video game genre that emphasizes player choice. Its core, defining trait is the use of simulated systems that respond to a variety of player actions which, combined with a comparatively broad array of player abilities, allow the game to support varied and creative solutions to problems, as well as emergent gameplay beyond what has been explicitly designed by the developer.[1] This definition is not to be confused with game systems which allow player choice in a confined sense or systems which allow players to easily escape consequences of their choices.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersive_sim

Which Cyberpunk 2077 has none of

Edit: Also, Wikipedia should not be used in anyway shape or form as a source of information.

 

[Guest 3847602]

Which Cyberpunk 2077 has none of

Let's look at the Gig: Fifth Column and some of the ways we can complete it:

It is word-for-word what immersive sim means.

Edit: Or the Gig: Cockoo's Nest?

 

[exxxed]

Which Cyberpunk 2077 has none of

Edit: Also, Wikipedia should not be used in anyway shape or form as a source of information.

Sure of course it doesn't, Warren Spector didn't exist and Looking Glass Studios never coined the term in relation to video games that were unique in their encounter/level design and open approach, specifically System Shock, Thief and Deus Ex, of course not.

Immersive Sim is literally to do with level design and encounter design that rely on open ended gameplay leaning heavily on mechanics and systems that allow such encounters to be unique to the player's approach.

That is all present in Cyberpunk, even in the more linear set-piece levels like The Parade.

Nothing wrong with using Wikipedia if the sources are verified, Immersive Sims are part of videogames history and it's been all documented.

Feel free to dispute it as much as you'd like but this thread is not to do with how immersive one thinks the game is, it's to do with videogame design philosophy and genre.

 

[CokyRustler]

"Core" of the Immersive Sim is consistent, logical and interactive ruleset of gameplay mechanics derived and reflected from the world/setting that "translates" into gameplay that feels natural and rewarding as player can come up with creative solutions to problems. As a result Immersive Sim always have more open ended mission design with little to no handholding.
There are other aspects of it as well, that enhance world simulation ( npc reactivity, AI, etc), but I think that is the defining feature of the subgenre.
Rockstar games, for example, have strong world simulation elements, but it's gameplay mechanics, quests and level design are extremely simple, shallow and restrictive.
Deus Ex, on the other hand, is the opposite and is still widely considered as one of the best Immersive sims.
Kingdom Come Deliverance surpasses both: interactivity, world simulation, mechanics, mission design. Even passage of time can affect missions. Failure is also part of quest design. Everything is designed with sense of logic and purpose in the world, while paying respect to the setting.
After playing it, and then going back to Cyberpunk: no, I would say no, it definitely isn't one. There are certain elements of it ( like level and environment design, open ended mission design with gigs, some light interactivity between mechanics), but even more aspects of it are Anti-Immersive Sim, or in other words: looter/MMO.
"Epic loot", level scaling, nonsensical magic effects on gear ( like guns dealing poison damage), leveled loot restrictions, overall loot and object placement, overload of UI icons, crafting, and so on.. no studio intent on making Immersive sims would even consider putting something like that in the game.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

nonsensical magic effects on gear ( like guns dealing poison damage)

Yeah, I agree, it require some imagination, but it's easy to "explain" it as in ME

• Each bullet, while inserted in the chamber on the weapon is coated by an extremely thin layer of radioactive material that have a great chance to poisoning the organic target upon impact.
• Each bullet, while inserted in the chamber on the weapon is coated by an extremely thin layer of thermite paste that have a great chance to igniting the target upon impact.
• Each bullet, while fired is subjected to a powerful magnetic field which charges it electrically, causing an electric shock upon impact.

 

[exxxed]

"Core" of the Immersive Sim is consistent, logical and interactive ruleset of gameplay mechanics derived and reflected from the world/setting that "translates" into gameplay that feels natural and rewarding as player can come up with creative solutions to problems. As a result Immersive Sim always have more open ended mission design with little to no handholding.
There are other aspects of it as well, that enhance world simulation ( npc reactivity, AI, etc), but I think that is the defining feature of the subgenre.
Rockstar games, for example, have strong world simulation elements, but it's gameplay mechanics, quests and level design are extremely simple, shallow and restrictive.
Deus Ex, on the other hand, is the opposite and is still widely considered as one of the best Immersive sims.
Kingdom Come Deliverance surpasses both: interactivity, world simulation, mechanics, mission design. Even passage of time can affect missions. Failure is also part of quest design. Everything is designed with sense of logic and purpose in the world, while paying respect to the setting.

I a hundred percent agree with all of this, this is spot on.

But I'd classify Kingdom Come Deliverance as an RPG akin to Ultima and Elder Scrolls series, albeit more advanced of course.

After playing it, and then going back to Cyberpunk: no, I would say no, it definitely isn't one. There are certain elements of it ( like level and environment design, open ended mission design with gigs, some light interactivity between mechanics), but even more aspects of it are Anti-Immersive Sim, or in other words: looter/MMO.
"Epic loot", level scaling, nonsensical magic effects on gear ( like guns dealing poison damage), leveled loot restrictions, overall loot and object placement, overload of UI icons, crafting, and so on.. no studio intent on making Immersive sims would even consider putting something like that in the game.

So then we can stop classifying Prey 2017 as an Immersive Sim, might as well add Dishonored and Bioshock to that statement as well and we should start calling games like Hitman Immersive Sims.

I can see it now...

 

[CokyRustler]

Yeah, I agree, it require some imagination, but it's easy to "explain" it as in ME

• Each bullet, while inserted in the chamber on the weapon is coated by an extremely thin layer of radioactive material that have a great chance to poisoning the organic target upon impact.
• Each bullet, while inserted in the chamber on the weapon is coated by an extremely thin layer of thermite paste that have a great chance to igniting the target upon impact.
• Each bullet, while fired is subjected to a powerful magnetic field which charges it electrically, causing an electric shock upon impact.

If player has to "imagine" good implementation of rpg mechanic, then CDPR's rpg team has failed at their job.
So a good rpg designer would in this case:
- First think of what could these weapons these properties. Then come up with scientific explanation and name for weapon mods
- Add in game description for it, who manufactures it?
- Then think "Who would use this more" that would thematically fit specific faction ( like Maelstrom gang having an affinity for thermal mods)
- And last, distribute this logically through levelled lists, loot, merchants, environment, etc

This is something Mike Pondsmith has talked a lot and why he prefers sci-fi over fantasy. In fantasy games, with "magic", you typically have lot less logical and realistic restraints. But with realistic, or low fantasy video games, good rpg designers will make an effort to implement mechanics so that everything makes sense in the setting and complements worldbuilding. Which makes these game feel a lot more grounded and immersive. This was also one of key, distinguishing features of Cyberpunk 2020.
What's disappointing with Cyberpunk, CDPR did not even try. Even the smallest things, like "shards giving magic perk points" could have been easily done in a logical sense.
Every single mechanic they have in the game, they simply took a lazy way out.

S

It's been a while since I played those games, but I don't really remember any of them have anything like MMO/high fantasy systems and mechanics, like Cyberpunk/Witcher has.

 

[knox606]

These are one hell of a Flex for peoples ability of Google Search lol "What is a Sim Game"
"What's A Sim??", "What DEFINES a SIM Game REALLY???", Wikipedia says one thing, everyone else says another lol
I guess it's just a matter of one person own opinion than anything.
Personally, CP2077 is Far from anything "Sim"
It's no more "Sim" than Bioshock Infinite.
CP2077 missed a lot of opportunities to really expand on it's gameplay and the World of Cyberpunk. Only a very select few Quests ever take account of the players actions. And those are the ones we've seen in Trailers and heard of before release so you know these are the ones CDPR really actually worked on and put effort to while the rest were really just Rinse and Repeats. and often, it still doesn't really matter all that much in the end. I guess the only ones that really mattered were the Select few characters V can/could Interact with.
Other than that, CP2077 is Fairly far from being a Sim. Like VERY Fairly far lol, maybe I should remove the word "Fairly"...
Either way, who knows if it'll ever reach that point. Maybe not till the Latest and ONLY Expansion, maybe till then they'll introduce all types of new stuff mechanically into the game to make it more immersive or whatever, who knows.
Or not till Cyberpunk 2088, 2066, or just Cyberpunk II or whatever. That we'll see some great updates.

 

[Tvaroog]

One thing that classic immersive sims like DeusEx and Thief: The Dark Project had was the ability to pick up and stack objects. Or throw them, e.g. at enemies. While tons of objects in Cyberpunk 2077 have physics, I suspect the ability to pick up and manipulate things freely was not introduced because of open world.

Post automatically merged: Aug 4, 2022

aspects of it are Anti-Immersive Sim, or in other words: looter/MMO.
"Epic loot", level scaling, nonsensical magic effects on gear ( like guns dealing poison damage), leveled loot restrictions, overall loot and object placement, overload of UI icons, crafting, and so on..

Yeah, things that are "gamey" are very much against the imm-sim philosophy. Stuff like mods that you can add to your hat that will allow you to carry 500 guns instead of 300.