Does level scaling necessarily mean removing threats?

[GreyReaver]

Does level scaling necessarily mean removing threats?

It seems that level scaling could work in more than just the standard 'Everything is now at the player's level" method. To keep the atmosphere of there still being incredibly dangerous threats to Geralt all over the world, why not have it where certain types of monsters always have their level set at a certain number above the player level? Not so high that they were invincible, but definitely enough to make fighting them a difficult proposition. It could work the opposite way for other types, where drowners, nekkers, or unarmored bandits are always at the same level or a couple below making them minor threats, but still more than capable or killing the player if they got ganged up on and surrounded.

Just my two cents, but seems like it would give us the best of both worlds, and keep the challenge in playing no matter how powerful the PC gets.

 

[Robmomanjaro]

I'm not saying your idea is bad in any way but I really doubt the Witcher 3's formula is going to change. In terms of how the designed the leveling and the random monsters are around

 

[Sethanor]

selective scaling would be cool ...
for example i want the witcher-contract monsters to always be tough as fuck but some random "wild dogs" should never grow above lvl 5... i mean, WHY would these dogs get stronger? makes no sense ...
but i guess modders will have to take care of this

 

[Maydawn]

Scaling can ALWAYS work. What makes a difference, is how you implement it. Before explaining what I mean, I'll say: I think the current quest / monster level system is broken.
Here's a link to another similar thread with my thoughts on it. - http://forums.cdprojektred.com/thre...uest-Levels!?p=1709332&viewfull=1#post1709332

To make it short, implementation is key. If you make all monsters equal to your level no matter what, that's bad. But, for higher difficulties, you can make it like hard = monsters are always +2 your level, Death March = +3, and so on. And fine tuning important stuff like bosses, contracts, etc. Same for quests ofcourse. Getting that level 33 contract when reaching the first inn in Velen is bad design, in my opinion.

But as some people have already noted, such big things are very unlikely to change, unless CDPR really gathers up all the great gameplay suggestions on the forums with the TON of feedback since release, and decide to push a really big patch. But I'm not sure this would have a really big impact, as I'd assume most of the playerbase are already pretty advanced in the game and close to finishing it, and I'd bet there are alot that already did.

I have to say, that when it comes to gameplay suggestions, I always say the same thing: It's a shame CDPR didn't have a really tiny beta, like 50-100 friends and family. They would've had all that HUGE amount of feedback prior to release, with a real chance of fine tuning this game from a 9 to a 10.

 

[Cotchorama]

I think a bit of both would have been perfect, like a hybrid level scaling system. Hear me out, I believe its a fantastic idea...

They should keep the open world monsters on a set level in set level areas, those would be the ones that spawn and roam freely around the map. What they should have done with story monsters, or contract monsters is what I would call a hybrid level scaling system. Say the first boss should be fought somewhere when you're level 5... if you walk up to it at lvl 1 the boss will stay level 5 and beat your ass . If you like adventuring and have been gaining some levels, and walk into the fight being lvl .. say... 18, the boss would scale up to around level 14-15... so its not like incredibly weak but not as strong as you, but you wouldn't exactly steam roll it.

So, all world mobs would be a set level, but bosses would be adjusted close to your level dependent on how hard the fight is supposed to be. If you're level 70 and pick up a level 20 contract, the monster wouldn't be lvl 20, but around lvl 60-65 so it can gain stats and health accordingly, so its a challenge but its not ONE shot easy, nor would it be your level where you wouldn't notice that you've been getting stronger...

About you being lvl 10 and being able to accept a lvl 22 contract, its not that its bad game design... it appears to be, but its more to do with CDPR dropping the ball on that one. They should have had a gauging system in place that would check your level and refuse to give you the contract if you're too low level, like make the npc vocally tell you, you don't look "tough enough" or something like that. But have it inscribed in your quest journal that you may pick up this quest if you were strong enough later, so you don't completely forget about it when you're doing other things at higher levels.

Man all this brainstorming gave me an idea... I don't know how the endgame for TW3 is but... wouldn't it be sweet as hell if they'd just randomly cycle all the contracts you did but in random places and random monsters but at or close to your level in endgame? would be nice to keep RP'ing as a Witcher doing his job even though the story has ended.

 

[unwizzo]

About you being lvl 10 and being able to accept a lvl 22 contract, its not that its bad game design... it appears to be, but its more to do with CDPR dropping the ball on that one. They should have had a gauging system in place that would check your level and refuse to give you the contract if you're too low level, like make the npc vocally tell you, you don't look "tough enough" or something like that. But have it inscribed in your quest journal that you may pick up this quest if you were strong enough later, so you don't completely forget about it when you're doing other things at higher levels.

Why? I think it is awesome to be able to get contracts that involve monsters that are on a much higher level than you, it gives you a goal to either get strong enough to be able to easily own it or even to try it on your current level, sure it takes longer and it's a lot harder, but dedication is the key. Also it shows you that the world is dangerous that there are monsters out there that could will kill you, and that the world isn't waiting for you to get stronger to give you these kind of monsters, but that they are already a part of this world however good or strong you might be at this instance. Even just making the bosses scale to your level or your level +x robs you of the feeling that you have become stronger, that there are monsters who are simply weak compared to a master witcher and that you can look down on those peasants that are cowering in fear before some lvl10 wraith boss mob, which you can kill easily as a lvl 25 witcher (or something).

 

[Cotchorama]

Why? I think it is awesome to be able to get contracts that involve monsters that are on a much higher level than you, it gives you a goal to either get strong enough to be able to easily own it or even to try it on your current level, sure it takes longer and it's a lot harder, but dedication is the key. Also it shows you that the world is dangerous that there are monsters out there that could will kill you, and that the world isn't waiting for you to get stronger to give you these kind of monsters, but that they are already a part of this world however good or strong you might be at this instance. Even just making the bosses scale to your level or your level +x robs you of the feeling that you have become stronger, that there are monsters who are simply weak compared to a master witcher and that you can look down on those peasants that are cowering in fear before some lvl10 wraith boss mob, which you can kill easily as a lvl 25 witcher (or something).

Whoa whoa!! I don't like level scaling myself, I was just trying to mention of a different style of level scaling that I think COULD work... I myself absolutely DESPISE level scaling, but I also hate when you faceroll everything in the game because you're too strong. I want ATLEAST a semblance of challenge

It would have been very immersive to have the people issuing the contracts to react to your level in comparison to the level of the intended beast they're hiring you for. I think it would have been an ingenuous touch of creativity. I guess it goes down as a missed opportunity for CDPR :/

 

[Solid_Altair]

What you suggest is straight up scaling, OP. Having mobs a little bellow and big dudes a little above doesn't mean anything. If the adjustment would be constant per enemy type, then the decrease or increase in their challenge could be treated simply as the type of enemy, much like a wolf in your level is easier than a grave hag in your level.

Level scaling is one of the weak spots in the game. I still dunno about DM, but Broken Bones overlevels like crazy. What annoys me is not even the overleveling itself, is that although they didn't scale the enemies, they scaled Geralt, but gimping underleveled quests. So now there is a huge side effect: the incentive to skip quests (which I already started to do)... while the solution didn't really work: overleveling still happens even if you do little optional stuff.

I'd like to discuss this point, before presenting what I would suggest... mostly because I'm feeling lazy, now.

 

[GreyReaver]

yeah, overleveling is starting to be a problem for me on Death March. Up to level 10 was absurdly annoying, but it's starting to go the opposite way as Geralt starts outstripping all the opponents, and being a higher level than required for quests. If you do as much of the game as possible, it's impossible to not overlevel.

 

[K.Constantine]

Currently, CDPR have the worst of both worlds, the best of both worlds would be to only level scale specific monsters, such as contract and just area boss type ones, NOTHING else.

Humans shouldn't level scale, drowners shouldn't level scale, nekkers and ghouls and just NONE of the random monsters should level scale, they should just be tiered like they were in TW1 and 2, with maybe a slight range.
Currently you have idiotic things such as a naked bandit with a stick owning Geralt in two hits, while taking more than 30 and the complete idiocy of ultra weak monsters in a meadow and ultra strong EXACT same monsters in the forest next to it, it's moronic. The Witcher games have always had a decent monster variety, there is no need to give us the worst of both worlds. Just have set levels for everything except contract and mini-boss type monsters, which will scale to always be a challenge.
Humans shouldn't go past level 5 unless they're boss characters, neither should Drowners of Nekkers, unless it's some advanced form like Warrior Nekker or Drowned Dead.

Christ's sake CDPR! You got it absolutely right in TW1 and 2, how did you mess up here?

 

[Solid_Altair]

yeah, overleveling is starting to be a problem for me on Death March. Up to level 10 was absurdly annoying, but it's starting to go the opposite way as Geralt starts outstripping all the opponents, and being a higher level than required for quests. If you do as much of the game as possible, it's impossible to not overlevel.

That's normal. What's bothering me is that even if you do little optional stuff, you still overlevel.

Main quests give too much XP. Optional quests, specially of lower levels, give too little.

I spent a long time on level 19, then suddenly I was 21. The pace is all messed up.

 

[topeira]

1. do you think that if every level-up would require more XP than that would make it harder to over level?

2. do you think that getting less damage boost and less health per level would mean you are not as strong on higher levels (currently about 100HP in level up in the first 8 levels, then 80, then 60, then 50, then 30, then 25 in higher levels.\\\\ regarding damage - you get 4 damage points in each of the first levels, then slowly less until you get 1)

 

[JackyD31]

1. do you think that if every level-up would require more XP than that would make it harder to over level?

2. do you think that getting less damage boost and less health per level would mean you are not as strong on higher levels (currently about 100HP in level up in the first 8 levels, then 80, then 60, then 50, then 30, then 25 in higher levels.\\\\ regarding damage - you get 4 damage points in each of the first levels, then slowly less until you get 1)

On Death March you get barely any stat increases as you level up (I think it's +35HP per lvl), I am currently lvl 12 and a pack of lvl 4 Drowners can still own me if I let them gang up on me and try to just button mash my way through.

 

[topeira]

On Death March you get barely any stat increases as you level up (I think it's +35HP per lvl), I am currently lvl 12 and a pack of lvl 4 Drowners can still own me if I let them gang up on me and try to just button mash my way through.

that's weird. i asked specifically what are the differences between the difficulty levels and no one could confirm different leveling up bonuses.
http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threads/42215-What-is-the-difference-between-the-difficulty-settings

 

[JackyD31]

that's weird. i asked specifically what are the differences between the difficulty levels and no one could confirm different leveling up bonuses.
http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threads/42215-What-is-the-difference-between-the-difficulty-settings

Well if I recall correctly you start the game with 4k HP, I am now lvl 12 and have a 4420 base HP which equates to a 35 HP increase per lvl.

If I'm wrong and you start out with less HP feel free to correct me.

 

[Solid_Altair]

1. do you think that if every level-up would require more XP than that would make it harder to over level?

2. do you think that getting less damage boost and less health per level would mean you are not as strong on higher levels (currently about 100HP in level up in the first 8 levels, then 80, then 60, then 50, then 30, then 25 in higher levels.\\\\ regarding damage - you get 4 damage points in each of the first levels, then slowly less until you get 1)

1- It's not necessarily about the leveling being fast. It's about it being so focused on main quests. I think it should be more spread out. And the quests should probably be more "tiered". Instead of having few tiers with many quests around a certain level, there should be more tiers with fewers quests in each. That would help a lot against overleveling.

The scaling they did was an attempt to close the gap between players who do little and players who do lots of optional stuff. It didn't work well.

2- Great info. Thans for that. Do you know to which level that applies, in which level you collected the data? And does this damage apply to everything, or just sword attacks? I get the impression my bombs grow in damage as well. I one-shotted 10 low level humans with one grapeshot, yesterday. :victory:

 

[GreyReaver]

That's normal. What's bothering me is that even if you do little optional stuff, you still overlevel.

Main quests give too much XP. Optional quests, specially of lower levels, give too little.

I spent a long time on level 19, then suddenly I was 21. The pace is all messed up.

yeah, I heard the issue with that was that xp bonuses for quests increase rapidly with level, but the amount of xp required to level up doesn't change all that much, so you progress faster and faster the further into the game you go.

 

[Wolven_Essence]

I don't like level scaling at all. Both because I like the idea of walking into an area where there is a monster 15-20 levels higher than me, and because sometimes I just like to be able to slaughter things.

Personally, I think they just need to slow down the leveling process, make it so that we level a little slower so that we don't get to the point of overpowering things to quickly.

 

[topeira]

1- It's not necessarily about the leveling being fast. It's about it being so focused on main quests. I think it should be more spread out. And the quests should probably be more "tiered". Instead of having few tiers with many quests around a certain level, there should be more tiers with fewers quests in each. That would help a lot against overleveling.

The scaling they did was an attempt to close the gap between players who do little and players who do lots of optional stuff. It didn't work well.

2- Great info. Thans for that. Do you know to which level that applies, in which level you collected the data? And does this damage apply to everything, or just sword attacks? I get the impression my bombs grow in damage as well. I one-shotted 10 low level humans with one grapeshot, yesterday. :victory:

i tested at level 12 or 13. and the increase is also about signs.
each level has a line that look like this:

<ability name="Lvl12"><tags> "base" </tags><vitality type="base" always_random="false" min="60" max="60" /> <attack_power type="add" always_random="false" min="2" max="2" /> <spell_power type="mult" min="0.01" /> </ability>

so i see 60 HP increase for level 12, 2 melee attack damage increase and 0.01 spell increase. though i dont see alchemy potency increase....

 

[Solid_Altair]

Oh, sorry. I meant which difficulty level.