Dragon Age: Inquisition

[Scholdarr.452]

if DAI is anything like Origins. Because first and foremost, for me it's a party-based tactical RPG.

Well, problem is: it's not anything like Origins. It's basically a third person action RPG with computer controlled companions doing their own stuff. You don't navigate the battlefield, you don't issue orders and you don't mark targets. You don't control somebody indirectly, on the opposite you have to directly control your char and even order him to hit every single blow (or just hold down the button...). So we don't talk about something like an isometric or even free camera tac game here. We talk about game/combat/movement mechanics along the lines of Witcher, Dark Souls or Assassin's Creed (just a lot worse with actually no skill at all involved)...

You can switch to a tactical cam that works completely different (in the way of how classic party-based RPGs worked) but this cam is so terrible most people don't use it if you can avoid it.

---------- Updated at 07:02 PM ----------

Edit: sorry i misread i didn't see you'd put mouse keys. Well personally I don't feel the need to remap the mouse keys, so....... yeah

Well, since the mouse is one of your two control inputs and you are not allowed to bind actions to this device (and so basically 8 of the 11 buttons on this device are completely useless...) I'd say that this is a pretty big issue. It's like disabling half of the buttons of a console controller for no apparent reason...

 

[Cheylus]

Witcher and Assassin's Creed involving skills? Really? What's next? There is more tactics involved in The Witcher maybe?

Gamers and consumers and blablabla. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. When someone spend dozens of hours listening to virtual characters talking and reading codex entries, I have a very hard time considering DA:I as a "product for people who are not gamers".
We all know how popular RPG are, and party-based RPG are even less popular than that.

It reminds me a lot of someone here who said "The Witcher is a niche game".
Because TW3 isn't targetting the biggest possible audience maybe?
Gosh, stop flattering yourselves people.

 

[Unkindled]

Yea, I'm not at all on board with the idea that DAI isn't for "gamers" either. Rather insulting if you ask me. Lost me there on that one.

 

[PrincessCiri]

I think arbitrary rules about who is a gamer and who isn't, and which games are for gamers and which ones aren't are really tedious. Who gets to decide these rules anyway?

on a DA:I related note, this tickled me.

I haven't seen this yet, I wonder what mission it is for?

 

[His_Majesty]

Some mission from the elf chav.

 

[Unkindled]

I think arbitrary rules about who is a gamer and who isn't, and which games are for gamers and which ones aren't are really tedious. Who gets to decide these rules anyway?

on a DA:I related note, this tickled me.

I haven't seen this yet, I wonder what mission it is for?

I don't remember exactly, but I remember doing it. Was a war room operation I know I wanted to skip. Was happy that Cullen gave the voice of reason.

---------- Updated at 04:05 PM ----------

Some mission from the elf chav.

One of Sera's? Ah I remember now, the party prank one right? Figures.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Witcher and Assassin's Creed involving skills? Really? What's next? There is more tactics involved in The Witcher maybe?

More skill than DAI....

But actually my statement about skill was mostly related to DAI.

I guess you mix up skill and strategy here. With skill people usually mean reactions, how quick you are and so on. That's not the same as tactical or strategy approaches. Of course DAI uses way more strategy or tactics than AC or Witcher. But although the game features an action combat system it requrie almost no skill at all.

Gamers and consumers and blablabla. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. When someone spend dozens of hours listening to virtual characters talking and reading codex entries, I have a very hard time considering DA:I as a "product for people who are not gamers".

Why not? Same people also watch TV series, listening to characters talking all the time for massive amount of times. You don't have to be a typcial gamer type to be able to enjoy that kind of stuff...

We all know how popular RPG are, and party-based RPG are even less popular than that.

Yeah, but DAI isn't popular because it's a party RPG. It's popular because of its story stuff and romances and characters and so on. Why do you think Bioware cut the party gameplay more and more down? Not to increase the enjoyment for core gamers, that's quite sure...

It reminds me a lot of someone here who said "The Witcher is a niche game".
Because TW3 isn't targetting the biggest possible audience maybe?
Gosh, stop flattering yourselves people.

Ahem, that's pretty much the definition of a niche, yes. If you only target a limit market or a limited democracy you sell a niche product. Of course that only makes sense compared to other products in the same market. Witcher 1 was niche because it was a story-driven RPG, coming from a Polish dev and being PC only. So yes, that was a pretty niche game given the perspective of how big the whole gaming markt and the audience is...

---------- Updated at 01:08 AM ----------

I think arbitrary rules about who is a gamer and who isn't, and which games are for gamers and which ones aren't are really tedious. Who gets to decide these rules anyway?

Like every other definition these ones are used to describe stuff in a very summarized form, here certain types of people and their expectations without being forced to describe them in detail every time you talk about them.

The basic difference between a core gamer and a casual/consumer is that the first group defines itself that way. For core gamers gaming is an important part of their life and they acknowledge that. It's either their primary leisure time activity or at least a very important one. They spend a signifant amont of time for gaming each week. Casuals on the other side only play some games from time to time without having any significant affection for gaming itself. For them gaming is just one activity amonst many others or just something they do occasionally. They are usually not passionate about gaming on a general level.

Of course definitions are blurry and people have slightly different ones. But that doesn't mean that most people wouldn't understand what is meant.

Core gamer doesn't mean much more than "gaming fan" with fan(atic) being a similar word creation to define a similar type in sports.

If you don't like those terms don't use them. I'm too lazy to define different groups of people every time I write a post so I will continue to use these summarized group descriptions.

 

[Unkindled]

---------- Updated at 01:08 AM ----------


Like every other definition these ones are used to describe stuff in a very summarized form, here certain types of people and their expectations without being forced to describe them in detail every time you talk about them.

The basic difference between a core gamer and a casual/consumer is that the first group defines itself that way. For core gamers gaming is an important part of their life and they acknowledge that. It's either their primary leisure time activity or at least a very important one. They spend a signifant amont of time for gaming each week. Casuals on the other side only play some games from time to time without having any significant affection for gaming itself. For them gaming is just one activity amonst many others or just something they do occasionally. They are usually not passionate about gaming on a general level.

Of course definitions are blurry and people have slightly different ones. But that doesn't mean that most people wouldn't understand what is meant.

Core gamer doesn't mean much more than "gaming fan" with fan(atic) being a similar word creation to define a similar type in sports.

If you don't like those terms don't use them. I'm too lazy to define different groups of people every time I write a post so I will continue to use these summarized group descriptions.

I don't like them because they're used to make blanket and also largely irrelevant statements about people and games. I'm somewhere between core and casual, though I started off as core. Casual now mainly because I don't have time to play hours and hours like I could before usually. But considering the lack of decent games out now, when DA: I came out, I made time, which I probably shouldn't have done, lol. It cost me, but it was worth it.

DA: I is certainly more streamlined, yes, but it still has plenty within the game to attract the attention of core gamers. There's soooo much in the game that I have a hard time picturing someone who only plays games from time to time, maybe an hour per session, ever finishing this game...

 

[Scholdarr.452]

DA: I is certainly more streamlined, yes, but it still has plenty within the game to attract the attention of core gamers. There's soooo much in the game that I have a hard time picturing someone who only plays games from time to time, maybe an hour per session, ever finishing this game...

To attract the attention? Yes. To satisfy them? No.

And you're maybe right about the size of the game. But nobody said that people have to finish the game. Maybe they'll do so but only a few weeks later, maybe never. But I guess you're also right about your "semi-casual/semi-core" assessment. That might be the biggest target group for Bioware indeed. People who like playing games but aren't really attached to gaming in general or interested in game design or whatever. Usually they are also pretty undemanding in terms of gameplay or game design...

But again: “A game for everyone is a game for no one.”

That sentence never fit a game more than DAI... :/

 

[Phinnway]

Apparently 85% of video games purchased are never beaten, not even once I don't have a source, lol. So that should tell you something about "casuals" and "core" gamers. If you finish most of your games then you're probably a "core" gamer.

I think of a core gamer as someone who spend as much time doing game related things (talking about games, reading game websites, posting on game forums) as they do playing games.

I don't like them because they're used to make blanket and also largely irrelevant statements about people and games.

This so much.

 

[Unkindled]

To attract the attention? Yes. To satisfy them? No.

And you're maybe right about the size of the game. But nobody said that people have to finish the game. Maybe they'll do so but only a few weeks later, maybe never. But I guess you're also right about your "semi-casual/semi-core" assessment. That might be the biggest target group for Bioware indeed. People who like playing games but aren't really attached to gaming in general or interested in game design or whatever. Usually they are also pretty undemanding in terms of gameplay or game design...

But again: “A game for everyone is a game for no one.”

That sentence never fit a game more than DAI... :/

A lot of people on this very forum seem to contradict this sentiment. It satisfies my desire for exploration certainly. Among other things that make me love this game.

I LOVE playing games, I'm VERY attached to them. When I'm not playing games, I'm thinking about them, talking about them, writing about them on forums and in roleplays or fanfiction. I am a gamer, and Dragon Age Inquisition satisfies me. You can't dismiss me simply because in this period of my life, I have more pressing matters than playing games seven hours a day.

A game for everyone doesn't exist, and even if DA I undoubtedly tries to be more approachable, it's still definitely a niche product. It's nothing like the games of old with cult followings of a few thousand, but those days are largely gone.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Apparently 85% of video games purchased are never beaten, not even once I don't have a source, lol. So that should tell you something about "casuals" and "core" gamers. If you finish most of your games then you're probably a "core" gamer.

I think of a core gamer as someone who spend as much time doing game related things (talking about games, reading game websites, posting on game forums) as they do playing games.

I can agree with that. As I've said the typcial core gamer has interest not only in playing games occasionally but also about game design, game development and just game related stuff in general imo.

This so much.

Well, @Unkindled 's statement was pretty much a blank and largely irrelevant statement itself so...

 

[Unkindled]

Well, @Unkindled 's statement was pretty much a blank and largely irrelevant statement itself so...

Only because I addressed one.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

A lot of people on this very forum seem to contradict this sentiment. It satisfies my desire for exploration certainly.

Nothing wrong with that. But that's not what I expected from a Dragon Age game. And even the exploration is iom lacking since you rarely get properly rewarded for exploration and you rarely discover really interesting stuff...

I LOVE playing games, I'm VERY attached to them. When I'm not playing games, I'm thinking about them, talking about them, writing about them on forums and in roleplays or fanfiction. I am a gamer, and Dragon Age Inquisition satisfies me. You can't dismiss me simply because in this period of my life, I have more pressing matters than playing games seven hours a day.

It's not my intention to dimiss you. Given your own description I would even call you a core gamer very much. For me it's not that much about how much time you effectively put into gaming but how much you care about it...

I also want to add that I don't use these terms in order to dismiss anyone. I use them to describe. A core gamer isn't more valuable or better than a consumer/casual. He usually just expects "more" or different things from games.

A game for everyone doesn't exist, and even if DA I undoubtedly tries to be more approachable, it's still definitely a niche product. It's nothing like the games of old with cult followings of a few thousand, but those days are largely gone.

I don't see how DAI is still a niche product. Something like Crusader Kings is a niche product only played by people who really like this very kind of game and who are really passionate enough to put a lot of time into the game.

DAI is a typical mainstream product made for the biggest possible audience although that audience might still be a bit limited due to its RPG roots and fantasy theme. It's maybe not that approachable as let's say CoD or Assassin's Creed but it's coming pretty close. And that it's only played by people who like this kind of game is kind of obvious. That doesn't make a game niche. That applies to amost any game, even the biggest blockbusters, CoD and AC included.

 

[Unkindled]

Sorry, but your average person isn't going to be into a game like this... not with swords and magic and banging virtual poontang. I tried to explain dragon age to my casual gamer dad, and lol, yea. It was like trying to explain why the Tok'ra and Goauld aren't the same thing in Stargate SG-1. He pretty much heard demons and dragons, then tuned me out.

A typical individual considered a casual gamer also is going to feel overwhelmed with how much this game has. I was overwhelmed initially, and I'm used to large games like this. Then there's the romances, lol, something we all know isn't for everyone. I don't see how this isn't a niche game. It indeed has a specific audience. Just because the gameplay is simple, too simple in certain aspects, doesn't mean it doesn't have a niche. If it doesn't, then practically no game has a niche anymore, and that's pretty much impossible.

I also disagree greatly with the idea that there's nothing interesting to find. The forbidden oasis? Hissing Wastes? Western Approach? And my favorite, the Emprise du Lion or however that's spelled, and the Exalting Marches. Actually, I'll throw hissing wastes up there too. I got to enjoy that a lot more this time around now that I'm not rushing to finish the game since I already beat it.

And I haven't even gone to that elven temple yet, which should be fun. The emerald graves was also really cool, especially the certain house you find....

In conclusion, Dragon Age may not be what people want it to be. It certainly wasn't what I wanted it to be initially. But it works for what it is. Its changes only mean that it's less of an rpg in the traditional sense and more of a RPG with action adventure aspects to it, or vice versa if you wish. But those changes don't mean that it doesn't have a niche, or that it's no longer for "serious" gamers. It just means the game changed. For better or worse is of course up to you and your personal tastes.

---------- Updated at 09:25 PM ----------

I mean the exalted plains :lol:

 

[Phinnway]

@Unkindled The reason why DA isn't a niche game is because BioWare aims for accessibility. If you were to compare Fallout, The Witcher, and BioWare's games BioWare's RPGs would be the most accessible, The Witcher would be the least accessible, and Fallout would be somewhere in the middle. Also, BioWare did say they wanted COD's audience back in 2011: http://www.nowgamer.com/bioware-we-want-call-of-dutys-audience/

EDIT: There is also marketing. I've heard arguments that difficulty doesn't effect sales of games in any way. I'm not sure if that's 100% true because accessibility can mean more than difficulty. It can mean also mean art-style, for example.

Spoiler

Bayonetta 2 is a game with an accessible art-style if ya know what I mean

 

[Unkindled]

Accessibility simply means that those who are new to this sort of game can more easily get into it. That's not the same as having no niche. There is a specific appeal, and that is all that a niche is. Fighting games nowadays for instance? Very easily accessible to everyone, beginners and otherwise. Same for racing games, sports games... none of them appeal to me at all. Not anymore, but I used to love fighting games. And then the xbox happened.

---------- Updated at 09:37 PM ----------

FPS games are also pretty much the easiest games out now and the most easily accessible to everyone, but there's no doubt it has a specific niche.

 

[Phinnway]

@Unkindled I'm not sure what you mean by niche in your post. I usually think of niche as a game that appeals to a small audience, sort of like a cult classic. You seem to be using it to mean... a lot of things. In fact, I think you're drunk

FPS games are also pretty much the easiest games out now and the most easily accessible to everyone, but there's no doubt it has a specific niche.

It's not true that shooter's are the easiest games or the most accessible. Counter Strike has a high skill cap and isn't very accessible at all. I've known people that liked COD and thought Battlefield was too hard. I think you're narrowing the FPS genre a bit too much.

 

[Unkindled]

@Unkindled I'm not sure what you mean by niche in your post. I usually think of niche as a game that appeals to a small audience, sort of like a cult classic. You seem to be using it to mean... a lot of things. In fact, I think you're drunk


It's not true that shooter's are the easiest games or the most accessible. Counter Strike has a high skill cap and isn't very accessible at all. I've known people that liked COD and thought Battlefield was too hard. I think you're narrowing the FPS genre a bit too much.

I mean it as a game that appeals to a group. There's not really any group in gaming that can claim to have a small group or cult following anymore. Hence why I think not appealing to that sort of following anymore is irrelevant to the term in relation to gaming.

---------- Updated at 10:10 PM ----------

Like I said, a niche is simply something with an appeal to a specific group. Dragon age doesn't appeal to every gamer. It's not as much of an rpg anymore but it still has that same audience.

---------- Updated at 10:18 PM ----------

LOL, also not sure what was hard to follow on my previous post I was saying that accessibility and ease of approach has nothing to do with something's niche, because that doesn't necessarily increase appeal. Making sports games easier isn't going to make me any more interested in them.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Sorry, but your average person isn't going to be into a game like this... not with swords and magic and banging virtual poontang. I tried to explain dragon age to my casual gamer dad, and lol, yea. It was like trying to explain why the Tok'ra and Goauld aren't the same thing in Stargate SG-1. He pretty much heard demons and dragons, then tuned me out.:

Ahem, where did I exactly say that everyone on this planet has to play this game for it to have mainstream appeal to even non core-gamers???

But of course, every game is niche. CoD is niche because it only applies to people who like shooters. Who cares if 20 million people buy these games each year. It's a niche because you say so I guess.

Niche means that the target audience is very limited compared to the overall market potential. A game that sells millions of copies isn't niche, it's mainstream. It's not important if your casual gamer dad is into that audience or not. Not at all.

And once a product is cool or trendy it can even have a huge impact on the general mainstream. Just think of Game of Thrones. It's not just nerds and geeks looking that but also a great part of other democracies. Hugh, niche again? I don't think so. It may have a specific audience, of course. Each and every product has. But once you reach a certain critical mass you're not niche anymore but mainstream.

As for your "stuff to find": you merely list locations of the game. Ok. I've visited them all and most had nice vistas. That's just not interesting. I can look at great art every day for free on deviantart or whatever. None of these levels/locations you've mentioned were impressive beyond graphics imo.

For the game not longer being good for "serious" or core-gamers. Let's make a simplified mathematical example to which democracies certain games were directed:

DA Origins:
core/niche gamers: 70%
semi core gamers: 20%
casuals: 10%

DA Inquisition:
core/niche gamers: 30%
semi core gamers: 50%
casuals: 20%

When I compare these numbers (and games) I just come to the conclusion that Inquisition isn't made for me anymore. It's made for another democraphic, not being core gamers or game enthusiasts. For me the experience is just plain mediocre with way too many dumbed down and generic elements. It's disappointing. In its try to be accessible and open to as many people as possible it's less appealing to the former fans of the series, the core or niche gamers, the RPG enthusiasts or old-school gamers or however you want to call them.