Dragon Age: Inquisition

[Kyriene.376]

Exact same thing with Shani. And both didn't bother giving an explanation (until EE).

Both committed the mistake of allowing for a choice that they realized they couldn't afford to have. Giving us the option to choose Shani was a mistake, just like giving us the option to kill Leliana when her character has potential for more stories.

Well the Leliana issue could have been handled by simply creating a generic character to fill in for her instead of insisting on having Leliana fill that roll. I personally never killed her off, and when I played DA2 it didn't register on that front, but now thinking back on it, I can see the issue with it, and it's just poor forward planning on their part, that really could have been very easily avoided.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well the Leliana issue could have been handled by simply creating a generic character to fill in for her instead of insisting on having Leliana fill that roll. I personally never killed her off, and when I played DA2 it didn't register on that front, but now thinking back on it, I can see the issue with it, and it's just poor forward planning on their part, that really could have been very easily avoided.

Yes, it is poor forward planning, like the Shani incident.
But having a generic character fill her shoes is not a great solution, if they feel confident that Leliana fits the role perfectly like no other.

The whole "we need to give you as much choices as possible, needs to go away. Give me a small number of meaningful choices with meaningful consequences you are sure you are capable of delivering, and I'm happy.

 

[Pelargon]

Exact same thing with Shani. And both didn't bother giving an explanation (until EE).

Both committed the mistake of allowing for a choice that they realized they couldn't afford to have. Giving us the option to choose Shani was a mistake, just like giving us the option to kill Leliana when her character has potential for more stories.

The difference is that Gaider is always such a dick when the players call him out on it. He could just have admitted that they painted themselves into a corner and profoundly apologized.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

The difference is that Gaider is always such a dick when the players call him out on it. He could just have admitted that they painted themselves into a corner and profoundly apologized.

Yes it's known that Gaider is a loud mouth idiot who keeps making it worse whenever he opens his mouth. In that regard, yes CDPR devs being quiet serves them well. But they didn't apologize for Shani either.

 

[Pelargon]

Yes, it's more than enough reason to dump the plotline, or modify it beyond recognition.

Yes, God forbid those dainty little women have to play through something they find uncomfortable in a video game.

 

[Sycophant.568]

Yes, it's more than enough reason to dump the plotline, or modify it beyond recognition.

Ok, I can't distinguish between sarcasm and seriousness anymore. So if you are serious, then let me offer a counter example. There are people who think that animals are disgusting. So should a city close down its zoos because of said minority? The reasoning that the writers used is just as thin here. I like Gaider being fucked over by his colleagues, but their reasoning is as flimsy as the stories they write.

If you are not serious, feel free to disregard everything I said.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ok, I can't distinguish between sarcasm and seriousness anymore. So if you are serious, then let me offer a counter example. There are people who think that animals are disgusting. So should a city close down its zoos because of said minority? The reasoning that the writers used is just as thin here. I like Gaider being fucked over by his colleagues, but their reasoning is as flimsy as the stories they write.

If you are not serious, feel free to disregard everything I said.

I am serious, and I will disregard everything you said as a reductio ad-absurdum, aka a ridiculous analogy.

Someone being annoyed at animals in a zoo is not the same as people who do not want to be exposed to an act that they suffered from or something that resembles it while it being shrugged off as "romantic" or as good, when that act is epidemic.

 

[Pelargon]

I am serious, and I will disregard everything you said as a reductio ad-absurdum, aka a ridiculous analogy.

Someone being annoyed at animals in a zoo is not the same as people who do not want to be exposed to an act that they suffered from or something that resembles it while it being shrugged off as "romantic" or as good, when that act is an epidemic.

So a writer should constantly think about not disturbing anyone instead of writing the stories they want? That's just ridiculous.

 

[octavian123]

Nobody cared for good reason. I'm going to break down mine.

Yes everyone noticed it. Everyone also noticed that Geralt gave up on the fantasy of a family, him living a normal life, with Shani and Alvin the moment shit came down on his head. The Shani arc concluded in Witcher 1. Same thing happened with the Triss arc, but in her case, she was around after her arc concluded, allowing Geralt and her to rekindle a sexual relationship (no relation to the romance arcs in TW1 which were explicitly about the family stuff) and according to your choices in TW2 she can either be lover, on-off fuck buddy, or friendzoned.

I don't care about Yaevinn or Siegfried, so I can't answer as to the quality of their portrayal in TW2, but from what I saw of the ending, Yaevin was an airhead whose head was full of dreams (I believe Iorveth said as much), so it's no surprise he's not in TW2, since the character sucked, and if I had the option, I would not have put it in.

Siegfried was reduced to a cameo... again, do not care. The order is fully under Radovid's thumb now, he is their grand master in all but name. What did you expect would happen when Siegfried met Geralt? They'd share beer, smoke stuff and reminisce? The guy is a figurehead without any political backing and is now on Radovid's leash. How would he impact events?

If you played the games you'd know that Witcher 1 is a closed story, much like the short stories Sapkowski wrote. There is a definite beginning, an end etc, and CDPR made the game for fans of the books. It was only in TW2 that they began to stretch their own legs, in a creative sense, and it can be seen in the writing. A lot of it is... problematic, from writing, quest design, to camera work. I wish I could have helped ...but that is irrelevant.

Also, if you read that interview that popped up a while ago, about 40% of TW2 was axed because reasons. That is partly why choices did not impact events much in the second game.

Lastly, and to sum up, you are correct about the choices not affecting much but it doesn't matter because the plots of the first game are closed ones, even if you couldn't see it. Also, game was axed removing a lot of stuff. I saw this and decided, along with many others, to give them a pass. What you decide is your concern.

The lengths some of you go to protect the game are absurd. It is NOT an enclosed story because it takes place a bit after the assassination attempt which means that the decision to join the squirrels/templars is still relatively fresh. It would be very out of character of Roche not to care about you having helped the squirrels EVEN IF it was an enclosed story as you say and it boggles my mind how this went over the heads of the majority of the players.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

So a writer should constantly think about not disturbing anyone instead of writing the stories they want? That's just ridiculous.

Another reductio ad-absurdum.

No, a writer should be mindful of people's feelings and should be careful when writing scenes with controversial material. In other words, I believe that rape is a subject that writers can deal with, if and only if said writers take it seriously and do not shrug it off as "lol funny" or perhaps worse "aww it's romantic."

If they are incapable of dealing with the subject matter with the gravitas and seriousness it needs, they are better off avoiding it or face the consequences of their sloppiness and accept aggressive criticism.

 

[Pelargon]

Another reductio ad-absurdum.

No, a writer should be mindful of people's feelings and should be careful when writing scenes with controversial material. In other words, I believe that rape is a subject that writers can deal with, if and only if said writers take it seriously and do not shrug it off as "lol funny" or perhaps worse "aww it's romantic."

If they are incapable of dealing with the subject matter with the gravitas and seriousness it needs, they are better off avoiding it or face the consequences of their sloppiness and accept aggressive criticism.

Ah, okay. I get what you're saying, then.

 

[Blothulfur]

Wow threads been busy, lot of fuss for a bad game maker. Personally I found my choices in the Witcher 2 quite well catered for, Radovid being married to Adda or not, Seigfried acknowledging my alliance, Thaler sending me his advice, Vivaldi extending me a little credit, Shani's totally believable abandonment and Triss waiting as she has been all along, etcetera. I was in another part of the world to the players of the first game and so I hardly expected them all to migrate BG2/DA2 style to my new locale, it would be out of character and harmful to the game.

As for Roche, he's a man of the moment. He was pursuing the Kingslayer, he's got nothing personally against squirrels, they're just a foe he has had to deal with many times. Besides Geralt proved himself by saving the life of Roche's father figure Foltest, the Blue Stripe probably trusts no man more on his own path.

 

[Smiling_Jack1]

Another reductio ad-absurdum.

No, a writer should be mindful of people's feelings and should be careful when writing scenes with controversial material. In other words, I believe that rape is a subject that writers can deal with, if and only if said writers take it seriously and do not shrug it off as "lol funny" or perhaps worse "aww it's romantic."

If they are incapable of dealing with the subject matter with the gravitas and seriousness it needs, they are better off avoiding it or face the consequences of their sloppiness and accept aggressive criticism.

While i agree in general, your previous reaction was BS. You assumed the Bioware wouldn't/couldn't treat the rape maturely( i kinda agree), but that doesn't mean that rape shouldn't exist in games.Obsidian has written about rape multiple times in many games (FNV included), but never came as corny. And what if the writer in question means the scene to be disturbing? The quote by Gaider that the scene could be disturbing and thus bad realy rubs me the wrong way.
Don't forget, it wasn't rape per se. It could be interpreted as rape. My mind instantly went to someone using blood magic to control someone and make them compliant to his will.(and then f*ck them) Sure it could be interpreted as rape, but it could be very interesting scene and raise good questions if handled well.

 

[Sycophant.568]

The lengths some of you go to protect the game are absurd. It is NOT an enclosed story because it takes place a bit after the assassination attempt which means that the decision to join the squirrels/templars is still relatively fresh. It would be very out of character of Roche not to care about you having helped the squirrels EVEN IF it was an enclosed story as you say and it boggles my mind how this went over the heads of the majority of the players.

Read this part again... the summary, which you missed. And I ask you to read my words carefully, like I do yours, and consider, before replying.

[font=Calibri, Arial, serif]to sum up, you are correct about the choices not affecting much but it doesn't matter because the plots of the first game are closed ones, even if you couldn't see it. Also, game was axed removing a lot of stuff. I saw this and decided, along with many others, to give them a pass. What you decide is your concern.[/font]
[font=Calibri, Arial, serif]
[/font]
Also I will break down your proposed solutions.

>[font=Calibri, Arial, serif]If you chose Siegfried, Iorveth is much more hostile to you and it would be harder to side with the Scoiatael. It also makes Roche vouch for your innocence much faster and also treats you friendlier than usual. Flotsam and Loredo also treat you better.[/font]

Adding hostility to Iorveth's manner would simply be a stupid move as it would only serve as a delaying tactic, preventing many of the story's elements from moving forward and breaking the flow. Imagine Geralt and Iorveth still bickering while Saskia and Henselt already started warring. And why the hell would Roche treat you better? The Order unleashed mutants on Vizima, their men fought for the Grand Master, and later they became lackeys of Radovid. Roche should treat the man who helped the Order, which not very long ago was turning Vizima into a fiery pit? Also, why should Flotsam or Loredo give a damn? They live in total isolation, far beyond the order's arms. Same reasoning goes for the Yaevinn choosing.


Frankly put, you are turning this into a human vs elf thing, when it's a people vs people thing, regardless of racial discrimination. Yaevinn was a nutjob who had no support among the Squirrels, the Order were autonomous religious knights who were misled into Jacques' plan, and you want to see all of this in black and white.


I AGREE THERE SHOULD BE MORE CONSEQUENCES. Just not yours. And I can give CDPR a pass, because I know exactly why they are not in the game.

Another reductio ad-absurdum.

No, a writer should be mindful of people's feelings and should be careful when writing scenes with controversial material. In other words, I believe that rape is a subject that writers can deal with, if and only if said writers take it seriously and do not shrug it off as "lol funny" or perhaps worse "aww it's romantic."

If they are incapable of dealing with the subject matter with the gravitas and seriousness it needs, they are better off avoiding it or face the consequences of their sloppiness and accept aggressive criticism.

Your statement is fine as a general rule, but not in this case. There are literally hundreds of ways to interpret an event, as shown by the latest Witcher trailer. How flimsy must have Gaider's entire proposal been, if only one person who interpreted it as "rape" caused it to be cancelled? Not edited, not rewritten, CANCELLED. As you said these concepts can be effective if done right, yet the team has so little faith in their work/so eager to cater to everyone that they threw their work into the garbage at the first sign of controversy?

 

[Blothulfur]

Surely David Gaiders "writing" not appearing is a damn good thing, regardless of subject. I mean has anyone ever read the Stole Throne, and not tried to blind themsleves afterwards?

Edit: I would say though that Bioware does need to start treating such subjects better, whether making laughable arses like Anders or insultive caricatures like Isabella, they really need to start making better characters like say Dethmold, Philippa or Kreia. They talk the talk but they don't walk the walk, and thus they harm the causes they're supposed to be helping.

Only my opinion though.

 

[Pelargon]

Surely David Gaiders "writing" not appearing is a damn good thing, regardless of subject. I mean has anyone ever read the Stole Throne, and not tried to blind themsleves afterwards?

Edit: I would say though that Bioware does need to start treating such subjects better, whether making laughable arses like Anders or insultive caricatures like Isabella, they really need to start making better characters like say Dethmold, Philippa or Kreia. They talk the talk but they don't walk the walk, and thus they harm the causes they're supposed to be helping.

Only my opinion though.

Yeah, I think Isabella was supposed to be a powerful womyn who embraces her sexuality, but she pissed me off so much that she was actually the final straw that made me quit the second game. I can't imagine what they were thinking when creating her.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

While i agree in general, your previous reaction was BS. You assumed the Bioware wouldn't/couldn't treat the rape maturely( i kinda agree), but that doesn't mean that rape shouldn't exist in games.

Go back and read what I said.
I did not say rape should never be dealt with in games.

The quote by Gaider that the scene could be disturbing and thus bad realy rubs me the wrong way.

What I understood is that he meant for it to be romantic, not disturbing.

 

[Blothulfur]

Yeah, I think Isabella was supposed to be a powerful womyn who embraces her sexuality, but she pissed me off so much that she was actually the final straw that made me quit the second game. I can't imagine what they were thinking when creating her.

Yep I think that's what they were trying for, pity they made her a blatant, idiot, unmotivated slave, not someone to look up to or emulate. Then again I think that's Biowares writers prejudice coming out, they seem to hate people and so portray them as ineffective idiot brutes. Their condemnation of the those critical of the flaws in their games as homophobes and misogynists, rather than critical thinking individuals, certainly seems to confirm this.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

How flimsy must have Gaider's entire proposal been, if only one person who interpreted it as "rape" caused it to be cancelled?

It was unanimously agreed upon once that woman pointed it out. Gaider didn't even intend for it to be ambiguous or disturbing, and the entire team agreed that it has the vibe of rape when it was completely unintended. As such, yes it perfectly acceptable to either modify it or remove it completely.

 

[Sycophant.568]

It was unanimously agreed upon once that woman pointed it out. Gaider didn't even intend for it to be ambiguous or disturbing, and the entire team agreed that it has the vibe of rape when it was completely unintended. As such, yes it perfectly acceptable to either modify it or remove it completely.

Modify it, sure. That's necessary if the team thinks that it is excessive. But remove it completely? That lack of faith in their work does not bode well for the story as a whole, and is also too extreme a measure. It makes me think that their story will be a mess.