Dual Wielding Handguns, smg's.... Yes, No, Maybe?

[227]

From this CDPR blog post:

"At one point we thought about Geralt dual-wielding his swords. Geralt would fight with both his steel and silver sword. The idea seemed spectacular, especially in the visual aspect. Then we drew the consequence graph. The starting point was called: 'dual wielding combat'. Then we started thinking about the direct consequences e.g. 'looks great'.

Then we went deeper.. and we realized that dual-wielding interferes with one of our main gameplay rules – our swords serve two different purposes. The silver one works against magical monsters and the iron one works best against humans. The idea was finally abandoned and Geralt’s image remained coherent."

I wouldn't be surprised if dual-wielding made its way into 2077 since they were even considering it for Witcher 2. 2077 doesn't seem to have any of the same restrictions that would hold them back, so it could mean the realization of something they've wanted to use for a long time.

Dual wielding in Max Payne 3 <3

Have you ever played Max Payne 1 or 2? Just wondering.

 

[guidokpd]

I do not think dual wielding is practical, don't think any of my chars have dual wielded firearms. I do think dual wielding should be an option, just with penalties.

Do remember a guy who took multiple firearms to the extreme. He designed a char that had 6 or 8 SMGs smartlinked, on a harness under his long coat. The plan was when hostilities broke out he would just fire them all. Mass suppression fire. 180 rounds into a 4 or 6 m area is a nearly impossible check. If I remember right that char and the one standing behind him lived. The 3 other PCs and the NPCs present died. Impressive, but not a good way to make friends with other PCs.

 

[d1am0ndback]

I don't know, they mechanic they use for that in APB sucks monkey balls. While I can see the benefits, I really think there would need to be a good mechanic for the hand swap. I guess it would be important as well to declare an 'off-hand' at character creation, so that you can gain a penalty to accuracy in your off hand. Unless someone gets an ambidexterity chip, or they introduce an advantage/disadvantage system.

Sounds good, I just want to be able to be a badass gunfighter reminiscent of the Old West legends and spaghetti Western films. Max Payne 3 looks to have a great system, looking to play that soon being bored waiting for this game.

Army of Two has a good mechanic for that, so you can get the most out of cover. A similar mechanic would be beneficial for 2077's hypothetical gun combat.

I really would love to get the most out of cover and sneaking. Would be great to get some intelligent gunplay.

 

[Sardukhar]

For my two cents: I don't think that two weapons is that effective, and it's MUCH more challenging to properly balance. Looks like I'm in the minority here, though. =P

Nah, you're on my side.

That means we're winning.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

Dual wielding for a 'borg or aug, which enhanced itself to be good at it, is not going to be a challenge to balance or be ineffective.

 

[Meccanical]

Hell yes, but I see it as something only highly skilled gunman should be able to do effectively.

 

[Sardukhar]

Mmmf. I see something highly-skilled gunmen would fall over themselves laughing at.


Also holding your gun sideways. I HATE that shit.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

This sums it up best. You lose accuracy quite a lot. It makes sense, if using a handgun in each hand was effective, it would be taught as an effective technique. But it isn't, so it's not.

However, it looks awesome, so on that merit alone, I want to see it in the game.

 

[Deadbolt_Don]

Also holding your gun sideways. I HATE that shit.

Shooting sideways is actually useful for shooting from behind barricades, as it minimizes the amount of you that isn't in cover. Officers using riot shields also sometimes hold their firearms sideways so that they can increase their field of vision. Also, I've heard it's good for hitting targets moving vertically.

Other than that, yes it's pretty useless.

 

[thewarsend]

It can be done and you don't need FBC either. You will probably going to need some augmentations, but not that many. You don't believe me?

Look, this guy fires two AK-47's without any augmentations:

Oh, not good enough for you? Look at this:

No arms broken or anything.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

*snip*

No-one said it wans't possible. But how accurate were they with these? Hell, the guy firing the AK could not stand his ground and the guy with the M60's had to brace himself against another person just to stand still.

Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's always a good idea.

 

[wisdom000]

This sums it up best. You lose accuracy quite a lot. It makes sense, if using a handgun in each hand was effective, it would be taught as an effective technique. But it isn't, so it's not.

However, it looks awesome, so on that merit alone, I want to see it in the game.

I haven't trusted Mythbusters since they fucked up the tesla earthquake machine experiment so bloody badly. In fact I am kinda convinced they fail certain experiments on purpose...

Doesn't really have anything to do with what we are talking about.... however dual wielding of guns isn't as innefective as they make it out to be..... they are focusing on just standing there blasting away with both guns... which probably isn't very effective, except for suppression fire and shooting at very close range.

But holding a gun in each hand, and taking turns shooting each, depending on which side of the body your target is on... thats pretty effective for a sufficiently ambidextrous person.

Another thing the people doing these tests to debunk the whole 2-gun thing is that none of them are "instinctive shooters", or "point" shooters. While they may train regularly, and may be very familiar with the weapon, they shoot classicly, taking aim down the sights of the barrel. "Instinctive shooters" like the legendary Bob Munden, aim as if the weapon is truly a part of their body, firing from the hip or what not. The gun becomes an extension of themselves... they are not looking down the barrel, so much as just pointing it at their target and letting their instincts and reflexes take over... in other words, Zen shooting. Bob was an incredibly accurate shooter from the hip, arm bent and moving quickly... and he managed to outshoot even competition shooters taking much more careful aim.

As for no pro would ever do such a thing.... pretty sure Bob Munden would like a word with you about that if he were alive....as would the old Russian special forces, who did actually train in this method up until about the 50's.

 

[thewarsend]

No-one said it wans't possible. But how accurate were they with these? Hell, the guy firing the AK could not stand his ground and the guy with the M60's had to brace himself against another person just to stand still.

Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's always a good idea.

My point was, they didn't need FBC and no ones arm got broken like previously suggested. And with a few cybernetic implants accuracy could be improved greatly. It also depends on the shooter really.

For example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8&t=2m52s

 

[Sardukhar]

Ahh....no old pro would dual shoot in a life and death situation. What good would an extra bullet DO you that one wouldn't? Extra ammo or shoot position, those are good points and well worth making, but both at once, at a target, a la the Matrix? No.

I've fired 12 gauge and large rifles. I am a big 200 lb plus weightlifter. I don't really care what those videos show - you go out and try that one-handed. Ow ow ow ow ow. Hell, you fire a .357 for 10 rounds, you're sore and your accuracy starts to drop. Takes lots of practice before that isn't true.

And I -am- an instinct/point shooter. Preferred method.

Also, Bob was a damn freak. So was Elmer Keith, Carl Hathcock, any of those Gun Legends. They could do stuff the rest of us would have been nutty to try. Comes from talent, determination and 1 million hours practice.

And still wouldn't dual-shoot when it counts.

 

[wisdom000]

Also, Bob was a damn freak. So was Elmer Keith, Carl Hathcock, any of those Gun Legends. They could do stuff the rest of us would have been nutty to try. Comes from talent, determination and 1 million hours practice..

Skill level 10 you mean

 

[Damariel]

Handguns yes... smg's not so much

 

[Sardukhar]

Skill level 10 you mean

Heh. Or 11. If Kirk is Leadership 11, surely Munden et al...

 

[wisdom000]

Heh. Or 11. If Kirk is Leadership 11, surely Munden et al...

You know, I never really got the whole "kirk leadership" thing... I mean, I don;t care for star trek, but my dad loved it, and I have seen more than my share of it... but I don;t ever really recall Kirk being that inspiring, or that much of a leader....

But thats neither here nor there.... why do you hate cool so much Sard... 2 gun shooting isn;t to be accurate, it's to throw as much lead as you can and look awesome doing it... besides, in Cyberpunk you very often NEED more than one bullet to kill someone... especially if they are wearing armor. or are heavily cybered.....

This is the true beauty of Cyberpunk,.... the old hollywood cliches, like big ass guns and two weapon shooting and ridiculous maneuvers actually work.... hell if I thought about it long enough I am sure I could come up with a viable reason for gangsta shooting in cyberpunk as well...

 

[Sardukhar]

I hate cool because I play a Solo in the nastiest, most lethal PnP game out there. Because cool will get your character killed. My first 2020 GM was a bastard. He killed every single player in our multi year campaign at least once and typically at your first screw up. He was fair but utterly unrelenting. So, cool. Pfui. I prefer to live. And get paid.

Two gun shooting is useful in CP2020 for the reasons specified - the New York reload, weapon versatility, etc. John Woo style is for the people you just put a short burst of 5.56 API into - and their three friends who were hopping over cover yelling like morons.

Big ass guns I'm a fan of - like you said, sometimes you have to punch through that armour. Check out my Iconic Weapons post. Although the Heavy Flechette (armour 1/4, damage not) does nicely and is quiet...

 

[thewarsend]

Yeah, like Wisdom said, it is not about accuracy, it is about being cool and spreading love.. made out of... led.