Dungeon Level Design - The case of the Whispering Hillock

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

#1: Isn't this a technical limitation of the RedEngine (and many engines) where all ground water in an area must be implemented at a certain level, so in a swamp where theres water at your feet, to have a dry cave at all you need to design upwards, and then if you want water in the cave you need to go down again ?

I wouldn't know about that. Do you have a quote you can pull?
If true, the more reason to have a level entrance.

#2: Petrified Wood for the roots? Shattered when it dies. The size of the cave doesn't bother me, and hopefully they are going for uniqueness across all the caves rather than size.

The thing is, as I mentioned, Geralt cuts through thick roots the spirit pulls onto itself like butter. We can speculate in a multitude of directions, but, to me at least, they're seemingly just as thick and pretty much just as wooden as those covering the main entrance.

I don't mind the small size either. I do however mind borrowing design devices meant for larger dungeons. As for fuzzy nomenclature, I suppose you can say this isn't a dungeon. Calling it by a different name does nothing to address the design issues though.

I suspect most caves accessible from the surface in the real world are quite small, and its not really a dungeon is it, accept in the broadest gamer terms. The "Big Tree on a Hill" pointed out from the Harpies nest, could this be whats above the Trees Heart cave? Think about it. The cave can't be a Tardis in this open, go any where world, anyway, and not the way the engine works.

Nah, don't think so. we didn't travel that far. It's in that general direction but with a deviation. Plus the geography doesn't match up either. But the question remains, do these creatures seem like they' belong in that quasi-swampy area?

And it's not like the forest is far away and given how small the cave is maybe the tree spirit summoned them from the forest and they came through the roof of the cave.

That's an interesting idea. I actually like it.
However if indeed there were an opining, moonshine would have changed the lighting. That it didn't either means ther's none or that the lighting is off by a greater margin that I originally thought.

#3: Could be the cave was light in the demo so that they didn't have to show elements of Alchemy, they'd have to show the Cat potion, both how you drink it, and what the vision looks like.

Fair point. I think that is indeed possible.
But excessive brightness is not the sole offender in the lighting department. The rest remain.

 

[Aes Sídhe]

#1 Actually, I distinctly recall a modder discussing #1 regarding a mod for TW2. Its a plausible reason for the design choices here.
#2 i'll look later, but even still the other points stand, its a small hill, and the cave can;t be a Tardis
#3 I seem to recall an outcry about the vision pre-TW2's release, it's easily something they want to keep under wraps, or simply are not yet happy with yet themselves. Anyway, I'd like things dark for sure, and also give me a torch, I don;t always like to use Cat, toxicity and all.

edit: above directed at @HellKnightX88;

 

[HellKnightX88]

@Aes Sídhe
Well, water plays a much bigger role this time around since you can swim and what not so I'd assume they'd give their level designers more powerful tools to play with that aspect as well. If Skyrim could pull it off so can TW3.

 

[Aes Sídhe]

Aye, this is true, but it doesn't necessarily follow that its been changed. Also the ocean is on a different map. Please don't compare 'rim here, or it'll go sideways.

 

[1337Smithy]

I highly, highly doubt that water can only exist on one level... Oh, and you can see the ocean and the Pontar from the land we can explore.

I've seen water on different levels in the videos. For example, Geralt walks through some in Novigrad whilst the same scene shows the port at different elevation.

 

[adridu59]

#1 was the case on W2 but they've completely rebuilt their engine for the open-world so it's likely that they changed this esp. if they felt the need for it. Water must also be a special feature rather than a texture with effects as in W2, just judging by the blood spreads & al.

 

[Aes Sídhe]

Rivers can be different from actual groundwater, as could the ocean view, just saying. It can also be an optimisation issue especially when you are dealing with lots of it.

The major point I am trying to get across is there can be other issues developers have to consider not immediately apparent to gamers. The concerns raised on this thread might have absolutely nothing to do with level design, so don't ignore that possibility. They could be because its an early demo version, as yet uncertain mechanics not ready for public consumption, even thinking they're doing us a favour by being spoiler lite.... its a "Work in Progress" as the text on the top of the screen tells us. Moderate your suggestions & concerns accordingly.

 

[1337Smithy]

I don't think any possibilities are being ignored. No one is claiming to be absolute or infallible from what I've seen.

Rivers can be different from actual groundwater, as could the ocean view, just saying.

What do you mean by different?

 

[Gocko]

3. Lighting

Though less severely, REDs seem to have adopted Skyrim's approach to interior lighting. It's night outside, no lit torches around, and yet the place is quite bright. Too bright, as a matter of fact. The lighting itself is mediocre. Everything is evenly lit, there's no contrast, recesses such as the water shaft niche look as bright as the entrance, which would still be getting some moonshine. The spirit itself seems to be oddly lit. Light seems to be shinning from above, as opposed to emanating from it, but the rest of the room doesn't behave accordingly.

I was literally just playing Skyrim bugged by this thinking "I hope The Witcher 3's interiors won't have daylight outside when it's actually night".

 

[Jamessh1]

Granted I am new to the gaming side of the series the OP brings up a valid point about the cave design being well......pretty straightforward and boring-ish considering its a major plot driven mandatory quest. Thats probably the only negative thing i can say about everything shown thus far, and therefore a minor quibble. Can anyone comment on "dungeons" from previous games? Were they heavily based on puzzles/traps/mazes, and were they generally larger in scope/design?

 

[Aes Sídhe]

What do you mean by different?

I mean they can be implemented differently. Groundwater, rivers, oceans have different behaviour & properties, they will be differently computationally intensive, they may need optimised differently to get the best performance for the wider scene.

TW2 definitely implemented water as a plane at a certain level in the heightmap. Sculpt the ground to below that plane level of the heightmap and you see water.

It would be wrong to assume - and i'm avoiding reference to a certain game here, and while I could never be bothered with that kit I do know the previous versions - a developer can dig out a pond in the landscape, then another 10 feet lower 10 meters away, connect via a channel, fill top pond with water, and it will flow down the channel as a river effect into the lower pond. That's generally not how it works.

 

[Aes Sídhe]

#2 I don't think it's the same tree. There is indeed a large tree above the cave structure but it doesn't seem that much bigger than the rest of the trees and definitely not as huge as the one we saw before. If you look at 11:36 in the 37 minute demo you'll see the huge tree on the montain/hill to the right and slightly to the left of the center of the screen you'll see another smaller tree. That smaller tree (which is still pretty damn big) looks like a better candidate to me and even then, I'm not sure.

Just watched the moment again, believe it or not the smaller tree you refer to, in the centre of the screen is the one I was referring too, I'm surprised I didn't notice the massive one to the far right

Granted I am new to the gaming side of the series the OP brings up a valid point about the cave design being well......pretty straightforward and boring-ish considering its a major plot driven mandatory quest. Thats probably the only negative thing i can say about everything shown thus far, and therefore a minor quibble. Can anyone comment on "dungeons" from previous games? Were they heavily based on puzzles/traps/mazes, and were they generally larger in scope/design?

In TW1 we had things that could be called Dungeons, in that they were constructed by sentient hands underground, and they were good, slightly mazey but not overly so, no such thing in TW2. In both games we had Caves, just a few, generally small & naturalistic, with a couple larger. Each of these thing in both games were unique, no repetition, no traps, or "physical" puzzles involved. Sometimes they had internal low lighting, sometimes complete darkness, and you needed to use a potion that improves Geralts sight, or he could carry a torch in TW1. Don't think i've ever spent more than 20-30 mins underground in The Witchers.

In my view: This one Cave is suitable for its purpose, its quite typical of the smaller caves we've seen in the previous games. it's not enough to make wider judgements about the games subterranean areas, and the previous instalments did a relatively good job in this regard. The Witcher is not really a "dungeon crawler", some beasts make their home in caves so occasionally it makes sense narratively, but not always. Sentients tend to live above ground, sensibly.
@Jamessh1; You should play TW1 & TW2, you won't regret it, and it'll give you a great basis for TW3.


BTW: I don't think we should compare the "daylight shining through the windows or doorframe at midnight" of that other game to the luminosity of the Cave in question, and that artefact was, appropriately, a technical limitation of the engine in question.

 

[ONLY_ONCE]

I liked all of it and those monsters are awesome, they move and look way better than the ones in TW2.
I think the tree spirit called on them to sic Geralt

 

[1337Smithy]

I mean they can be implemented differently. Groundwater, rivers, oceans have different behaviour & properties, they will be differently computationally intensive, they may need optimised differently to get the best performance for the wider scene.

OK, that's fine. Just wanted some clarification. Cheers.

It would be wrong to assume - and i'm avoiding reference to a certain game here, and while I could never be bothered with that kit I do know the previous versions - a developer can dig out a pond in the landscape, then another 10 feet lower 10 meters away, connect via a channel, fill top pond with water, and it will flow down the channel as a river effect into the lower pond. That's generally not how it works.

I don't think many people do think that, do they? Maybe they do.. I've designed maps for various games so I understand it's definitely not the case. But I've never come across the limitation of water being constrained to a single elevation absolutely (not saying it's not in TW2, I just didn't think it was that common). I guess we'll have to see how CDPR have implemented their occlusion culling, and whether different heights are allowed in the same PVS. I'd feel sorry for them if they do have this limitation, as I can imagine it's very integral to the design of the land we've seen so far. But I'm far from being an expert in this field, so I'll happily be schooled if I'm under a misapprehension.

The fact that you brought up the example of connecting two bodies of water on separate elevations makes me doubt I've understood your point correctly, as it doesn't seem to follow on from what you said earlier. As this won't necessarily suggest that you can't at least have both water bodies (using brushes, just as an example) and then include a cascading water effect between the two.

Are you suggesting that water may only exist at one elevation? So, for example, a body of water (of any type?) couldn't exist on top of the hillock?

 

[Aes Sídhe]

@1337Smithy; Think about where theres water in Flotsam & surrounds, all that up and down in the map, theres water at the river, the drowners cave, the Troll, the Kayran. It's all of the same stagnant type, its uncomplicated (compared to what we might expect for TW3), theres no water up any of the hills. It didn't occur to me playing, but I distinctly recall a modder mentioning after redkit release that he was having difficulty because the water was implemented as a plane throughout the map rather than an adjustable mesh, so in his case he couldn't have water at 2 different levels. Thinking about the arrangement of the Flotsam maps water, it made sense.

And such a solution for uncomplicated water was quite common in engines ~10 years ago plus. The issue OP#1 sounds like it may be this again, and even if they have implemented meshes & complex water now - i'm confident they have in fact - a plane for groundwater could still be the desired solution for optimisation purposes, rather than a load of separate meshes, don't you agree?

Are you suggesting that water may only exist at one elevation? So, for example, a body of water (of any type?) couldn't exist on top of the hillock?

No, not at all times in all engines, I've been talking about TW2, and how that implementation may still be a valid choice in some areas in TW3, for different reasons. It is, as I said before, a plausible reason for the ledges up to the cave.

You know, if this kind of technical detail is your forte, there is a forum for the redkit.

 

[Quecken.285]

I totally agree with the point about the lighting. It really does look flat when I come to think of it. Sure, there will definitely be third-party modifications which can fix such things, but I don't see why they would want to create their game this way? Is it because of the compromises you have to make when creating an open world game? Or does it have anything to do with the hardware limitations of consoles? The lighting in The Witcher 2 looked so good! Great contrast and exposure. Maybe someone with a little insight into these things can give us some information?

 

[BroccoliSouP]

Having played TW2, my impression is that the REDs haven't been that much invested in dungeon design. The few caves I came across in my playthroughs were far from remarkable, while, by comparison, outdoor locations were consistently stellar. It's true the role dungeons played in the story was subsidiary, so whatever the shortcomings in their design, they didn't feel troublesome. That might change in TW3. Senior level designer Peter Gelencser has said there's plenty of dungeons in this instalment, some of them quite big.

We've been shown one small dungeon. A few things nag me about the level design of this iteration of the Whispering Hillock.

1. Access.

You get there climbing onto two ledges, which seem to constitute the entire ledge vocabulary, so to speak, of Tw3. These are very similar if not identical to the ledges we've seen throughout No Man's Land. By the time the player reaches this point in the story surely he will have learned to recognize them as climbable. If true, this sort of repetition and predictability will get tedious.

From a level design perspective, the ledges offer zero benefits: they're not really a challenge and they present no reward. The irony is that you go up just to go down - you descend the ramp and end up roughly at the same elevation you started of at. So these ledges do feel like a frill. A level entrance would have been more inviting and mysterious, doing away with the need to activate the senses, a good thing in itself.

2. Design

There's glaring problem in this design from the get go, I think. Once inside, Geralt can't take the most obvious and direct route because it is blocked by roots. He casts Igni to no good effect. But why wouldn't Geralt's first instinct be to use his sword? In fact, later on, when the spirit protects itself with a web of equally thick roots, Geralt easily cuts and slashes them away. So the obstruction seems to be just a contrived way to force Geralt to dive, possibly to showcase diving and underwater exploration.

While I like how the spirit looks, the minion monsters it summons to defend itself are also problematic. They're highly reminiscent of Flotsam forest's monsters. These colourful creatures did suit the lively forest, but they're not really evocative of a dark forsaken cave. Hopefully, they're just placeholders.

3. Lighting

Though less severely, REDs seem to have adopted Skyrim's approach to interior lighting. It's night outside, no lit torches around, and yet the place is quite bright. Too bright, as a matter of fact. The lighting itself is mediocre. Everything is evenly lit, there's no contrast, recesses such as the water shaft niche look as bright as the entrance, which would still be getting some moonshine. The spirit itself seems to be oddly lit. Light seems to be shinning from above, as opposed to emanating from it, but the rest of the room doesn't behave accordingly.

Things just look flat and uniform. It's such a shame, really, as some dramatic lighting would have made a big a difference.


I do hope Devs get something out of this. Maybe they can show off some dungeon next time around. Maybe this dungeon will have turned out to be just a misstep or it will have been improved upon before launch. Here's hoping.

Again you criticise something what is not good and then you go with critics to something what is not a problem at all just to make your post longer or something? Don´t know.

Anyway I agree with shitty lightning. I agree with that highlighting cliffs/ledges beign stupid. Otherwise using ledges to access higher locations. Easy and ok solution. Why not to use same monsters? At least we won´t get spoiled the new ones and you can´t have 80 totally new mosters. Last but not least they really wanted to introduce diving. I believe this level was affected to not take much time and showcase as much possible. If not then it is not perfect but anyway...do you feel like lumberjack? I would rather swim.

 

[MUPPETA]

i think caves are very good in Witcher2- (for battle with multiple opponents)
especially the one near Kadweni camp? ( cave near the crashed ship on the beach)
but mines - was a maze even with map.(that was pain in the ...lightning was completely wrong and to much saturated)

There is one big cave they show us so far (when geralt enters with thorch-from e3 demo)- looks very nice
and that guest cave in islands - monster with anchor

CDPR can't satisfy all players with design
it is the big picture what is important and i think it is very good so far

 

[KiriSilvermane]

What I'm finding really hard here is the amount of moaning about lighting and lightness etc.
it's a demo of gameplay! Primary objective is to show off their game! Not how dark things are and how you can blunder about in a dungeon half blind!
Lighting is very easily tweaked and adjusted...either by devs themselves to help show off the demo for recording/ media...or by players to get it a level they are happy with!
For me Skyrim had some awesome lighting and awesome dungeons! But then I adjusted my game to suit my tastes! To a point where I needed torches or potions to see well, where I felt I was hidden in shadows! ( and why not just mention the game? Be mature about it and just use it as an exemplar!)

What sticks in my gullet with the demo is how easily the spirit is defeated! It smacks of deliberately editing/ changing stuff for the demo! To me that battle seems designed to be something far more akin to an Arkham Batman boss fight....attack boss, boss summons minions, kill minions, attack boss to knock down health and repeat!
The way it played out just seemed to easy and false. But that's far from OP so I won't go on!

But consider this: if that boss battle is tweaked to be quick...might not the dungeon also be? I've seen numerous demos of games where the section you've seen played in demo is altered with more content in the final game! As in this case...it's almost manufactured to suit the demo needs....

 

[Jupiter_on_Mars]

What I'm finding really hard here is the amount of moaning about lighting and lightness etc.
it's a demo of gameplay! Primary objective is to show off their game! Not how dark things are and how you can blunder about in a dungeon half blind!
Lighting is very easily tweaked and adjusted...either by devs themselves to help show off the demo for recording/ media...or by players to get it a level they are happy with!
For me Skyrim had some awesome lighting and awesome dungeons! But then I adjusted my game to suit my tastes! To a point where I needed torches or potions to see well, where I felt I was hidden in shadows! ( and why not just mention the game? Be mature about it and just use it as an exemplar!)

What sticks in my gullet with the demo is how easily the spirit is defeated! It smacks of deliberately editing/ changing stuff for the demo! To me that battle seems designed to be something far more akin to an Arkham Batman boss fight....attack boss, boss summons minions, kill minions, attack boss to knock down health and repeat!
The way it played out just seemed to easy and false. But that's far from OP so I won't go on!

But consider this: if that boss battle is tweaked to be quick...might not the dungeon also be? I've seen numerous demos of games where the section you've seen played in demo is altered with more content in the final game! As in this case...it's almost manufactured to suit the demo needs....

Yes, it's possible the cave itself is a placeholder. There would have to be a pretty compelling reason for spending precious time on assets that won't make the cut, seeing how REDs are already hard pressed for time. Is there any indication in there they did?

The lighting, though, that I'd have a much harder time swallowing, that they baked some just for the purpose of the demo. And there's the fact lighting is as poor in the other 2 interior locations. Lighting in TW2 caves wasn't stellar either.

I certainly hope it will be improved by the time the game releases. But I'm highly sceptical of the claim it's just a matter of tweaking.

For me Skyrim had some awesome lighting and awesome dungeons! But then I adjusted my game to suit my tastes! To a point where I needed torches or options to see well, where I felt I was hidden in shadows! ( and why not just mention the game? Be mature about it and just use it as an exemplar!)

Interior lighting in Skyrim is appalling. If that is your standard, then It wouldn't surprised me you'd be satisfied with what we've seen so far.

Skyrims lighting in buildings wasn't great...but where it was used correctly underground it could look pretty sweet!
I'm not getting into an argument about that though....
Lighting in ANY dev kit is a piece of piss to adjust!! Once the base lights etc are placed it's just a matter of sliders!
As for cooking that section of the demo....again once the assets are set up it wouldn't take long at all to do.

And don't make this personal by assuming anything about me! If you can't reply in a forum without attacking someone's opinions on a personal level don't bother in the first place!

@kirisute , I think we're talking past each other here. I'm not talking about tweaks. I'm talking about fundamental changes.

And, please, there's nothing personal about that remark. It's entirely reasonable to infer anyone deeming Skyrim lighting good would find this good as well.

I stand by the comment.